@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
Perhaps I have not been clear enough in my statements. I am not saying to buy only infantry. I am saying not to buy planes at all and to limit the amount of armor you buy to a minimum needed for counter attacking a major push by the Germans. You can’t stop the Germans from taking territory lightly but you do want to stop them from taking Karelia or Caucasus heavy and holding them.
USSR isn’t going to stop Germany from getting Karelia “heavy” completely on their own. That’s just downright unfeasible. You need to get the US/UK fleets up before that becomes a possibility.
You do not want to trade $1 territories. That is a losing battle for Russia. You do want to keep Germany from taking and holding Karelia or the Caucasus. If Russia has large stacks of infantry, with a few artillery and a few tanks, Germany does not have the ground forces to move in and hold Karelia or the Caucasus. The real danger Turns are 1-4 to 1-5. After that Russia starts pushing back and more armor purchases at that point are warranted.
Okay, but how do you get to Karelia to hold it? It can only buy two units a turn to place there as Russia, and to get from Moscow to Karelia requires going through either Belorussia (a dreaded “$1 territory” that, according to you, should not be fought for) or Archangel. I suppose you could do the later, but if you’re willing to fight for Archangel, why not Belorussia, which directly borders Moscow and is on the German’s critical path from Berlin -> Moscow?
Also why TANKs? ART are the more economical purchase for offense because they boost the firepower of paired INF.
2 INF/2 ART = 14 IPC, 4 HP, 8 Punch (offense and defense)
compare with 3 TANK = 15 IPC, 3 HP, 9 Punch (offense and defense)
I understand mixing in TANKs if you’ve hit > 35 IPC (the point you’d be able to build 5 INF/5 ART), but for the bulk of the game I don’t see your income getting that high. If USSR is consistently getting over 35 IPC then you’re “winning” (which lines up with my original post that says USSR should start adding TANKs once they’ve reached a winning position.
I would say R1 is a 2 armor, 2 artillery and 4 infantry build to give Russia a counter attack force. After that all infantry and 1 armor a Turn until there is enough infantry on hand to start pushing back. By the beginning of R5 that would give Russia 6 armor, 4 artillery and a ton of infantry to start pushing Germany back.
- Start = 1 armor
- Turn 1 = 2 armor
- Turn 2 = 1 armor
- Turn 3 = 1 armor
- Turn 4 = 1 armor
- Therefore, Turn 5 starts with 6 armor
I mean my flow isn’t completely different from yours. I just like having the air force for efficient trades.
@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
I am not going to trade territories. Most of the territories you are talking about are worth $1. Why am I going to lose a $3 infantry for a $1 territory?
Because you kill at least one (sometimes two or three) $3 Germany Infantry and slow the German advance, which gives you more time for US/UK to get their fleets ready. You don’t need to swap every territory, just the ones on the critical path between the main German stack and Moscow. Even one or two good trades can be enough to delay the game for the one or two turns needed for the Allies to get their act together.
At what cost? 2,3 or 4 Russian infantry? Even at 1 to 1 exchange odds that is a bad deal for the Russians as the Russian infantry defends as a 2 while the German infantry attack as a 1.
USSR loses 1 INF at most, since you’re bringing the FTRs with you. The idea is that you burn German INF that are close to the front so that new German INF have to spend 3-4 turns walking to the front line, while your new Russian INF spawn on the exact location they’re needed.
Also, Germany has multiple planes! At least 4 to 5. Russia has 1, if you buy one. Therefore, Germany has a huge advantage in trading territories. Why play to their strength?
Because if Germany is using their planes to attack Soviet territories, they can’t use them to attack the UK fleet as it builds up. Almost the entire UK fleet goes down (maybe at most, you get one SZ of units that survive) on G1. You need at least 2-3 rounds of builds before UK’s fleet is ready to start landing troops in Europe. If you’re drawing the German FTRs into Russia to help their trades, they can’t destroy your budding UK fleet before it’s 100% ready.
Looking at the board the Germans can still hit the Baltic and hit Russian land troops. That is all that matters.
FTRs can’t attack two spaces simultaneously. 3 FTRs Vs. a fleet compared to 4 FTRs Vs. a fleet is a pretty significant difference unless you moved out with the UK Fleet too early.
@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
In addition, there is only a 53% chance a single infantry + single fighter will take a territory defended by a single infantry. That means I am losing out on taking the territory just as much as I am taking it and it is costing me valuable infantry that defend far better than the German infantry that are attacking me. Paying $10 for something that most likely is going to lose me money doesn’t make sense.
That statistic lacks context. This website’s calc and TripleA gave me:
1 INF, 1 Fig Vs. 1 Inf
A Survives: 90.5% D survives: 4.5%
52.82%: 1 Inf, 1 Fig
36.69%: 1 Fig
9.49%: no units
4.48%: 1 Inf
95.52%: no units
I assume you got the “53%” figure from the percent chance that both the INF and the FTR survive, but even if both your and your opponent’s INF die, you still slowed their advance because Germany needs to put another unit in that position. Also, this only assumes 1 FTR. If you bring 2 FTRs, the odds improve to 61% chance the INF survives, 35.44% chance of both FTRs surviving.
Correct. I said a 53% to TAKE the territory. You said trade territories with Germany which implies taking the territory.
That’s fair, and I apologize for the poor wording on my part. Hopefully the bit above where I explained in slightly more detail why I favor these trades (tl;dr forcing new German INF to waste turns walking to the front) clarifies things.
1.) Stacking Karelia is impossible. You can only build 2 units/turn there. Germany will take it with their overwhelming advantage on turn 2 no matter how many INF you try stacking there.
I disagree. Germany can take it on G2 but they cannot hold it and then Russia can move in in force on R2 making a G3 attack a questionable move. Assuming a heavy German push on G1, on average, Germany can get 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 6 armor, 4 fighters and 1 bomber against Karelia.
Assuming UK sinks the Baltic Fleet G1 (meaning they can’t use it G2):
2 INF Norway -> Finland
Finland holds position (4 INF total)
1 INF from NW Europe + 1 ART from Germany -> SZ5 TT -> Baltic States
4 INF/ART/2 TANK Poland -> Baltic States (total is 5 INF/2 ART/2 TANK Vs. 3 INF)
2 TANK Czechoslovakia/Hungary -> East Poland
1 INF/2 TANK Bulgaria/Romania -> East Poland (total is 1 INF/4 TANK Vs. 2 INF)
1 FTR Poland -> Ukraine
2 INF/1 ART Bulgaria/Romania -> Ukraine (total is 2 INF/1 ART/1 FTR Vs. 2 INF)
G2 total threat on Karelia
4 FTR/1 BOMB from various
4 INF from Finland
4 INF/2 ART/2 TANK from Baltic States (assuming 1 INF was lost)
4 TANK from East Poland
total is 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK/4 FTR/1 BOMB Vs. whatever Russia tried to defend with. Obviously, Germany would win that battle, and you agreed with this position.
As Russia can only get 9 infantries, 1 artillery, 1 armor and 1 AA gun Russia has to pull out. However, on G2 Germany can only move in 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 6 armor to take and try to hold it. Russia can hit that force with 12 infantries, 2 artillery and 3 armor which means Germany has to go light or be annihilated. Then Russia takes it on R3 and holds it.
As you say, rather than defending Karelia directly, USSR can stack a neighboring territory and go for a counterattack on R2 (when the German Air Force won’t be present). Let’s look into this scenario:
USSR can stack either Belorussia or Archangel to try setting up a dead-zone on Archangel. If they stack Belorussia, you can dive on their stack with extremely variable odds depending how G1 went + how USSR distributed its forces. Assuming that they either stacked Archangel or you just don’t like the odds at Belorussia, you can walk into Karelia here no problem. Using your R1 build, the biggest Russian response I was able to get was 12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. the German force of 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK. Of course, the German INF number is variable based on G1, but lets break down the calcs:
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 9 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 14% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 6 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 26% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 5 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 7 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 40% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 2 USSR Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 6 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 56% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 3 USSR Tanks survive
So, if Germany had particularly poor luck in the opening, then USSR can block an advance into Karelia on G2, but even in the scenarios where USSR wins, the odds are effectively a coin flip.
Germany can likely hold Karelia for G2 and G3, but by G4 they may need to withdraw in the face of UK’s naval buildup + how the rest of the game is going. At that point we’re way too far out to make concrete calculations.
2.) Sitting in Moscow/Caucasus (and not at least East Ukraine/Belorussia) is a recipe for disaster. If Germany gets their main stack onto East Ukraine unopposed then they can threaten both Caucasus and Moscow simultaneously. This will force USSR to abandon Caucasus for Moscow, as attempting to defend both evenly would result in Germany walking into Moscow easily. Once Germany walks into Caucasus, USSR’s economy collapses and (especially in your version of the game where NOs are turned-on) Germany’s income explodes to such a level that the Western Allies no longer have any hope of taking France.
Losing the Caucasus for one Turn is not a game loser. Losing it the entire game is. Germany cannot take and hold Caucasus; they just do not have the ground troops for it. If they are going for Karelia they are not going for Caucasus and vice versa. I am okay trading, worst case, Karelia and/or Caucasus for one or two Turns, as long as the Germans cannot move in heavy and hold it.
I think I worded things badly here. My point was more that if USSR holes up in Moscow and is reduced to trading in Caucasus for 1-2 rounds while the USSR stack in Moscow grows large enough to dislodge Germany, the Germans will get enough NO bucks (or just the regular 4 IPC from Caucasus if playing without NOs) to keep their income afloat for long enough to survive against the allies (by steadily retreating in the east and stacking Berlin in the west) until ~round 8 or 9. If Germany holds out that long, Japan can get its air stack into Europe and start defeating the Soviets, which will increase the odds that Germany is still standing by the time that Japan takes Moscow.
You know AA50’s game flow very well (as demonstrated earlier in this thread in a post I didn’t respond to). Japan is the one who ultimately takes Moscow in most games rather than Germany. The role of Germany/Italy is to make as much money as possible during the early game and then turtle until Japan wins the game. My main gripe with NOs (and your Russian strategy of not actively fighting for space on the board) is that the easy money Germany gets makes this task much too easy.