Welcome! If you're a returning member of the forums, please reset your password. If you don't receive an email within minutes, it means your account is listed under another, likely older, email address. Contact webmaster@axisandallies.org for help.

Is a bid system necessary for the revised edition?



  • Is the game so unbalanced that you need the bid system for this game or perhaps I’m missing the point.



  • An Axis bid of 6-9 seems to be the current standard to balance things out.

    FAR superior to the original version, which currently has bid levels in the low to mid 20’s



  • I can only imagine how tired you are of answering this question but I ask that you humor me.  If you were to win the bid at 6 what would buy and where would you put it?



  • Me personally with $6?
    1 INF Belo
    2 IPC Germany
    1 IPC Japan


  • 2007 AAR League

    There’s been a lot of discussion on what the standard bid should be.  My view is, if you’re just starting out playing against new/inexperienced players you should skip the bid.  The axis starts out in a very strong position and the allies must coordinate thier actions to win.  For new players this can be a bit ovewhelming & offsets any need for a bid on the axis side.  When you become more experinced and have mastered the whold “coordination thing” then you should start thinking about a bid.

    Also you should print out a copy of the latest Larry Harris Tournament Rules (LHTR v1.3) these revisons are from the game designer and clear up a lot of inconsitincies in the box rules, and have some other changes that make for more balanced play.



  • @eldeano:

    Is the game so unbalanced that you need the bid system for this game or perhaps I’m missing the point.

    It really depends upon your definition of “necessary”. Is a bid amount actually required for the Axis to win???

    Actually, the answer is “no”. Let me explain.

    Lets take a 3-6 bid amount. Under tournament conditions, you can only use that amount to buy pieces to be placed. You cannot save the money.

    You thus purchase 1-2 infantry, or perhaps a tank or arty depending on amount. Standard ideas are Lybia, Ukraine, or Belorussia.

    Now…What does this purchase do for you???

    It merely makes the Round 1 attacks numerically better. That’s it. For instance, you might have 1 less loss in Egypt. Or paehaps take an additional casualty from USSR in Ukraine. But are these really GAME CHANGING events?

    NO.

    I have placed a bid in Ukraine, not had a single German hit, and still won a game. I have placed additional troops in Lybia, attacked Egypt, and still lost that battle.

    A bid is NOT necessary. If you have success R1, that is more likely to lead to a victory than any bid. Now, a bid does increase the chance of success in those R1 attacks, but that is all.

    You can likely win somewhere above 40% of the time as axis w/o a bid. Axis does not “need” a bid. It just needs a decent R1.

    Squirecam



  • It’s interesting what you can do with the bids:

    $1 means Japan can build 2 tran 1 IC, a balanced approach to bringing troops to the maindland fast
    $2 means Japan can build 4 tran, a very quick way to island hop
    $3 means Germany can build 1 inf in Libya, which begins to allow you to skip using a transport on Egypt
    $4 means Germany can build 1 art in Libya, which more strongly allows you to skip using a transport on Egypt
    $5 means you can do a combination of $1 and $4 or $2 and $3
    $6 is like a combo of $2 and $4
    $7 is like using a tank instead of an art + the $2 Japanese start
    $8 means all kinds of interesting things. I like doing 1 inf lib 1 tank alg which means you can completely skip using a transport on Egypt on G1, although there are so many other things like putting transports on the board and such.
    $9 is like doing an art in Lib and tank in alg, for a really solid Egypt opening with or without a transport
    10+ to me feels excessive. I would really start to feel mighty at $12

    A bid is NOT necessary. If you have success R1, that is more likely to lead to a victory than any bid. Now, a bid does increase the chance of success in those R1 attacks, but that is all.

    You can likely win somewhere above 40% of the time as axis w/o a bid. Axis does not “need” a bid. It just needs a decent R1.

    I think you defeated your own post squirecam. You said the Axis just needs luck (a good R1) to win, and you say that the bid does increase the numerical luck slightly of the Axis, but then you say that a bid doesn’t make a difference. That makes no sense. If the Axis indeed wins about 40% without a bid, and we’re shooting for 50%, then a small bid would likely get you there because of the slight tilt it causes in the first round.



  • $2 for jap gives you 4 trn or 2trn 1ac also quite good against kjf



  • @trihero:

    It’s interesting what you can do with the bids:

    $1 means Japan can build 2 tran 1 IC, a balanced approach to bringing troops to the maindland fast
    $2 means Japan can build 4 tran, a very quick way to island hop
    $3 means Germany can build 1 inf in Libya, which begins to allow you to skip using a transport on Egypt
    $4 means Germany can build 1 art in Libya, which more strongly allows you to skip using a transport on Egypt
    $5 means you can do a combination of $1 and $4 or $2 and $3
    $6 is like a combo of $2 and $4
    $7 is like using a tank instead of an art + the $2 Japanese start
    $8 means all kinds of interesting things. I like doing 1 inf lib 1 tank alg which means you can completely skip using a transport on Egypt on G1, although there are so many other things like putting transports on the board and such.
    $9 is like doing an art in Lib and tank in alg, for a really solid Egypt opening with or without a transport
    10+ to me feels excessive. I would really start to feel mighty at $12

    A bid is NOT necessary. If you have success R1, that is more likely to lead to a victory than any bid. Now, a bid does increase the chance of success in those R1 attacks, but that is all.

    You can likely win somewhere above 40% of the time as axis w/o a bid. Axis does not “need” a bid. It just needs a decent R1.

    I think you defeated your own post squirecam. You said the Axis just needs luck (a good R1) to win, and you say that the bid does increase the numerical luck slightly of the Axis, but then you say that a bid doesn’t make a difference. That makes no sense. If the Axis indeed wins about 40% without a bid, and we’re shooting for 50%, then a small bid would likely get you there because of the slight tilt it causes in the first round.

    No, that’s not what I said.

    The question is whether a bid is NECESSARY for the axis to win. It is not. The axis can win (40%) w/o it. Now, under 2nd ed, where bids of 20+ are needed, can the axis win that much??  No.

    IMHO, a bid is “necessary” if one side (allies) will mostly/always beat the axis without it. Revised does not have this problem.

    Are the sides slightly unequal w/o a bid. Perhaps.
    But is a bid required for an axis win? No.
    2nd ed, a bid is required to have any real chance to win.

    Squirecam



  • A bid IS required if you want a balanced game between two opponents of equal skill…
    Otherwise, the Allied player will win 3 out of 5 games.

    The purpose of a bid is not to make it POSSIBLE to win, but to make the odds as close to even as possible.



  • @ncscswitch:

    A bid IS required if you want a balanced game between two opponents of equal skill…
    Otherwise, the Allied player will win 3 out of 5 games.

    The purpose of a bid is not to make it POSSIBLE to win, but to make the odds as close to even as possible.

    With 2 players of exactly equal skill (i.e you play “yourself”), the “dice” will determine who will win. Except that the odds are rarely that even. Dice fluctuate from battle to battle and round to round.

    You could be doing fine R1, until a UK fighter dies and a japan transport lives, swinging the odds in the axis’ favor.

    Or Russia goes for a 3 prong attack (belo, WR, UKR), lessening its overall chance for success and increasing the odds for a bad attack outcome.

    In theory, (perhaps under LL), 3 out of 5 would go to the “allied you”. But it is very hard to say 3 out of 5 will go to the allies in a game that depends upon dice. One “bad” round makes it 50/50, or perhaps more.

    Dice never do the same thing from game to game. You cannot “count” on the same result each time, which is what is required to determine an accurate 40/60 split.

    The attacks would have to play out similarly from game to game to get to a true 40/60.

    The bid DOES NOT make the game 50/50. After R1, the dice will have determined what the axis’ chances looks like. What a bid does is increases the % that the axis will “look better” after R1.

    Let me give a game example.

    2 inf bid. 1 in Ukr, 1 in lybia.

    USSR attacks Ukraine, the “bid” inf missed. Germany takes Egypt with 1inf 1 tank. (bid inf died).

    UK can still counter Egypt.
    USSR was not affected by UKR bid.

    HOW did this bid make the game even??? Sure, Germany absorbed an extra hit, but was that hit worth a “10%” chance to win the game???

    Example 2. No bid game.

    4 German pieces R1 hit in Ukraine. After a tough battle, USSR UKR forces are down to 1 tank. UK Egypt forces were wiped with no hits back.
    Who has the advantage now? It wasnt because of a bid, now was it.

    If you are relying on a “bid” to make things exactly 50/50, keep waiting. It doesnt.

    Example #3

    Egypt has an inf, tank and fighter. Def of 9. Thats 1.5 hits. Guess what 50% of the time its 2 hits, 50% one hit. It is THESE percentages that determine overall success.

    W/O a bid, 50% of the time Germany has a “better” Egypt outcome. 50% its not. Hence, w/o a bid, shouldnt the axis win % be 50/50. (Note it’s not due to UKR/WR/etc). Which is why I say axis is “somewhere” above 40%.

    A bidder merely says “I feel I can beat YOU, with an extra ____”. To him it may mean an equal chance, or maybe he thinks with that ___ he has an advantage. The game, at start is never equal. And from the moment someone “misses”, it becomes more unequal.

    My advice, play axis AMAP, w/o a bid. Learn to win AMAP w/o a bid. Learn to maximize your pieces and strategies w/o a bid. Then when you get one, act as if its gravy.

    SquirecamÂ



  • We are talking about long term averages in terms of balance.

    Yes, there ARE going to be those games where Yukon Jack withstands the Jap landings in WCan.  There will be that R1 attack on West Russia that FAILS completely.

    When you are talking about game balance, you are talking about tens of thousands of games played, and the average outcome of those games.

    And, from that perspective, a bid of 6-9 is what brings the averages to approximately 50/50.

    Without a bid… play 10,000 games not 1.  And you will end up with about 6,000 Allied wins and 4,000 Axis wins.



  • I don’t believe 10,000 games were played prior to someone saying a “bid” was needed. 🙂

    You would have to play 10,000 “non-bid” games and have a ratio of 60/40 before you could claim a bid was needed.

    Kinda why I wish AAA had gone 2 games, no bid. I would have loved to see those stats after a few 1000 games.

    Since so many variables of an 8 bid can be made, its hard to say whether an “8” bid is truly equal.

    BTW, you play FTF tournaments at all? Gencon is approaching fast…

    Squirecam



  • Alas no.

    I would if there were any very nearby, but none in my neck of the woods (closest I know of is 7 hours away)



  • I suppose until our group of guys get a little more experience with the new game we won’t worry bout it.  A couple more infantry starting out for Germany does sound appealing, however.



  • BTW, I took these stats from the AAA ladder. While overall the axis has won 51% of the games, look at these stats from the ladder. Most players have better AXIS win % than allied. Even among the lowest rank players. That would be some indication that a bid of 8 could be too high…

    146. Marinero
    Sergeant
    720

     47.6 % (10 of 21)

     66.7 % (6 of 9)

     33.3 % (4 of 12)
     (7 votes)

    149. FearlessMidget
    Sergeant
    665

     33.3 % (5 of 15)

     37.5 % (3 of 😎

     28.6 % (2 of 7)
     (3 votes)

    150. madmatg
    Sergeant
    630

     27.3 % (3 of 11)

     33.3 % (2 of 6)

     20 % (1 of 5)
     (4 votes)

    151. bassboot
    Sergeant
    620

     12.5 % (2 of 16)

     16.7 % (1 of 6)

     10 % (1 of 10)
     (5 votes)

    152. ash
    Sergeant
    572

     14.3 % (1 of 7)

     33.3 % (1 of 3)

     0 % (0 of 4)
     (1 votes)

    154. ARMissel
    Sergeant
    542

     16.7 % (1 of 6)

     33.3 % (1 of 3)

     0 % (0 of 3)
     (2 votes)

    155. aricthered

    10. yavol
    General
    1860

     72.7 % (16 of 22)

     90 % (9 of 10)

     58.3 % (7 of 12)

    13. X-101
    General
    1830

     67.9 % (19 of 28)

     73.3 % (11 of 15)

     61.5 % (8 of 13)
     (8 votes)

    14. Blue Max21
    General
    1810

     52.2 % (47 of 90)

     52.3 % (23 of 44)

     52.2 % (24 of 46)
     (26 votes)

    15. crazy Ivan
    General
    1810

     58.3 % (42 of 72)

     61.1 % (22 of 36)

     55.6 % (20 of 36)
     (16 votes)

    16. Garibaldi
    Colonel
    1721

     69.4 % (25 of 36)

     76.2 % (16 of 21)

     60 % (9 of 15)
     (12 votes)

    17. Lhokken
    Colonel
    1652

     71.4 % (10 of 14)

     83.3 % (5 of 6)

     62.5 % (5 of 😎
     (3 votes)

    18. Blasherke
    Colonel
    1643

     66.3 % (53 of 80)

     61.9 % (26 of 42)

     71.1 % (27 of 38)
     (21 votes)

    19. Atreides
    Colonel
    1637

     66.7 % (14 of 21)

     63.6 % (7 of 11)

     70 % (7 of 10)
     (7 votes)

    20. Tobi Wan Tongo
    Colonel
    1636

     59.3 % (16 of 27)

     73.3 % (11 of 15)

     41.7 % (5 of 12)
     (7 votes)

    21. owein77
    Colonel
    1631

     68.8 % (11 of 16)

     62.5 % (5 of 😎

     75 % (6 of 😎
     (3 votes)

    22. Darquan
    Colonel
    1572

     88.9 % (8 of 9)

     75 % (3 of 4)

     100 % (5 of 5)
     (1 votes)

    23. Clausewitz
    Colonel
    1562

     62.5 % (15 of 24)

     66.7 % (8 of 12)

     58.3 % (7 of 12)
     (7 votes)

    24. Puccy
    Colonel
    1562

     58.3 % (14 of 24)

     46.2 % (6 of 13)

     72.7 % (8 of 11)
     (10 votes)

    25. Peetee1138
    Colonel
    1536

     54.3 % (25 of 46)

     56.5 % (13 of 23)

     52.2 % (12 of 23)
     (11 votes)

    26. Bismark
    Major
    1490

     83.3 % (10 of 12)

     83.3 % (5 of 6)

     83.3 % (5 of 6)
     (2 votes)

    27. Straha
    Major
    1488

     59.1 % (13 of 22)

     72.7 % (8 of 11)

     45.5 % (5 of 11)
     (6 votes)

    28. Grizzly Bear
    Major
    1474

     58.7 % (27 of 46)

     70.8 % (17 of 24)

     45.5 % (10 of 22)
     (12 votes)

    29. GSH34
    Major
    1465

     80 % (12 of 15)

     85.7 % (6 of 7)

     75 % (6 of 😎
     (5 votes)

    30. fastfred
    Major
    1446

     64.3 % (9 of 14)

     57.1 % (4 of 7)

     71.4 % (5 of 7)
     (3 votes)

    31. Verdugo
    Major
    1440

     66.7 % (12 of 18)

     66.7 % (6 of 9)

     66.7 % (6 of 9)
     (4 votes)

    32. androcks
    Major
    1426

     87.5 % (7 of 😎

     100 % (4 of 4)

     75 % (3 of 4)
     (3 votes)

    33. Darth Crane
    Major
    1407

     47.8 % (11 of 23)

     50 % (6 of 12)

     45.5 % (5 of 11)
     (7 votes)

    34. Franco72
    Major
    1366

     75 % (6 of 😎

     80 % (4 of 5)

     66.7 % (2 of 3)



  • Of the top 10, only ONE player has an axis win% under 50. Of the rest, the lowest is 64 % (1 guy). The rest are 70% or higher. Again, some evidence that axis +8 might be too much.

    1. Serghis Khan
    Field Marshall
    2832

    84.3 % (43 of 51)

    80.8 % (21 of 26)

    88 % (22 of 25)
      (12 votes)

    2. Crimsontide
    Field Marshall
    2613

    74.1 % (20 of 27)

    71.4 % (10 of 14)

    76.9 % (10 of 13)
      (6 votes)

    3. Incy
    Field Marshall
    2472

    93.3 % (28 of 30)

    85.7 % (12 of 14)

    100 % (16 of 16)
      (9 votes)

    4. Kublai Khan
    Field Marshall
    2341

    70.8 % (34 of 48)

    71.4 % (15 of 21)

    70.4 % (19 of 27)
      (11 votes)

    5. enoch101
    Field Marshall
    2001

    82.4 % (28 of 34)

    76.5 % (13 of 17)

    88.2 % (15 of 17)
      (8 votes)

    6. Dartman
    General
    1999

    71.4 % (25 of 35)

    64.7 % (11 of 17)

    77.8 % (14 of 18)
      (8 votes)

    7. TexasAggie
    General
    1980

    55.9 % (19 of 34)

    47.1 % (8 of 17)

    64.7 % (11 of 17)
      (7 votes)

    8. jeffouner
    General
    1941

    86.4 % (19 of 22)

    80 % (8 of 10)

    91.7 % (11 of 12)
      (5 votes)

    9. bayder
    General
    1918

    83.3 % (20 of 24)

    84.6 % (11 of 13)

    81.8 % (9 of 11)
      (4 votes)

    10. yavol
    General
    1860

    72.7 % (16 of 22)

    90 % (9 of 10)

    58.3 % (7 of 12)



  • I am missing header information to read what is what.

    Also, remember that the BEST players tend to END UP with the Axis more due to lower bids.  Thus they become better at playing the Axis than the Allies
    I am a good example of that…
    10 Axis games, 8 wins
    5 Allied games, 3 wins

    80% win Axis
    60% win Allies



  • @ncscswitch:

    I am missing header information to read what is what.

    Also, remember that the BEST players tend to END UP with the Axis more due to lower bids.  Thus they become better at playing the Axis than the Allies
    I am a good example of that…
    10 Axis games, 8 wins
    5 Allied games, 3 wins

    80% win Axis
    60% win Allies

    1st % is overall, 2nd is axis and 3rd is allied.

    But, under AAA, players must play twice. 1 axis, 1 allied. Bid is 8 in both games.

    So your stat example doesnt apply.

    Squirecam



  • OK…

    Your own site stats show a 51/49 overall split.  Pretty darn balanced.
    Also, averages for folks with win percentages over 50% are going to be skewed, since they more than likely will win no matter which side they play.

    Here is a prior discussion that places the Axis bid even HIGHER (9) in order to be balanced.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=6629.0



  • I read that section. Found a very interesting quote….  🙂

    quote author=ncscswitch link=topic=6629.msg102217#msg102217 date=1147216381]
    Carrying over IPC remainign from the bid to be used on Turn 1 is essential to pairing down the bid.

    Otherwise, you end up with low bids all being in increments of 3 (for the most part)

    Allowing for IPC carry over, I’d be willing to take a bid of $1 against most opponents…

    Since you accept a bid of ONE, I’d say your whole argument saying 6 is needed to balance the game was just fluff. :)  You are basically willing to play straight up. Which is what I said earlier, a bidder means “I can beat anyone with +1)”



  • Notice the rest of that quote…

    Start with MOST oponents.  Meaning against folks who are not as skilled (sorry, int he past 9 months I ahve become a VERY skilled player).

    I also specified that agaisnt the best players (players equal to my skill level or better) that I would want a higher bid to keep it even.

    You cannot use me vs. your average player as an example because you are dealing with unequal skill sets.  And the whole question of balance hinges on equal or comparable skill sets.



  • If you feel confident enough to beat most people at ONE, I doubt you need 9 to beat the “best”.

    Perhaps you beat the best at 6-9 because 6-9 is too much. 🙂

    Squirecam



  • But alas, I lost to one of the best at 7 just my last game.



  • I still don’t understand your argument, Squirecam. If you’re saying if a bid is NEEDED, then no game REQUIRES a bid. Not even classic does if there is a 25% or even 1% chance for the Axis to win, because your argument is that there exists the possibility that the Axis will win.

    If this is not what you’re saying, if you actually want a 50% chance to win, then a bid helps this in the long run. Your argument that luck cancels out the bid is a bogus argument, because you only look at situations in which luck negates the bid, you’re not looking at the average when things come out a little bit better which ups the 40% to closer to 50%. Over many games a bid HAS to affect the game somehow. It is not nonexistent and therefore unnecessary like you’re making it out to be.


Log in to reply
 

Welcome to the new forums! For security and technical reasons, we did not migrate your password. Therefore to get started, please reset your password. You may use your email address or username. Please note that your username is not your display name.

If you're having problems, please send an email to webmaster@axisandallies.org

T-shirts, Hats, and More

Suggested Topics

  • 3
  • 6
  • 9
  • 3
  • 2
  • 14
  • 1
  • 9
I Will Never Grow Up Games

40
Online

13.2k
Users

33.5k
Topics

1.3m
Posts