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Can the US have naval superiority?



  • @ncscswitch:

    2 INF won’t do it, not against the 11-14 units that Japan is sending toward Moscow starting in J3…

    Im not saying USSR can do it by itself.  It is after all Axis and Allies.  😉 US and UK intervention in Asia is needed for Russia to survive.



  • But the US is buildign Navy in the Pacific, and the UK is screwing around with a South Africa IC… that means that Russia is FRACKED.



  • The UK and US would have to either heavily reinforce Moscow or push hard in Western Europe to keep the Germans at bay.  Russia cannot take the chance of sending the bulk of their force east when all the early pressure comes from the west.



  • But tha tis not what Jen posted… she has the USA 100% against Japan in the Pacific in a Naval Showdown…



  • @ncscswitch:

    But tha tis not what Jen posted… she has the USA 100% against Japan in the Pacific in a Naval Showdown…

    If US is 100% against Japan in a naval showdown, then Russia is F’ed in the A.  Theres no way UK can help out Russia if Germany can wield all their navy against them.  Thats why US has to be balanced.  They can anyways, with all that cash.



  • I have been in many games where the US goes 100% Pacific and it never works out so well for Russia.  The UK loses control of the Africa quickly and if the US doesn’t help they don’t get it back.  Russia just can’t compete with Germany in production so if the US goes 100% Pacific then the bad guys win.



  • In most cases, I would have to agree.

    KJF is POSSIBLE, but the risks are extremely high, and there is no room for error… or bad dice.

    In fact, were you to establish a set of KJF House Rules… rules that required say 2/3 or more of US production went to the Pacific, then you would probably also need to institute an ALLED bid to keep the game even.



  • I would never try a KJF in Revised.  Japan’s navy is just too big.

    If KJF strategy is used, Japan can see it coming a mile away, and it switches to infantry/artillery/fighter production instead of infantry/tanks.

    If the US attacks early, the US has to overcome 2 battleships, 2 carriers, 5 transports, 7 fighters, and 1 bomber (possibly a destroyer too).  The ONLY thing Japan has to worry about is the location of the US transport.  Until the transport starts threatening (which won’t be for a couple of turns at least), Japan can focus on Asia.

    if the US attacks late, the US has to overcome 2 battleships, 2 carriers, 5-6 transports, 1-2 destroyers, 1-4 subs, 10-12 fighters, and 1 bomber.  And this assumes most of the US is directed at Japan.  If the US even tries to divert to Africa, Japan will be just about impossible to take down.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I think you arn’t considering the attrition effects hard enough.

    Yes, Japan with all her islands can do some serious damage to Asia to get massive cash flows.  But you take those 13 IPCs from her, and maybe get some Russian and British troops over there to help out in Asia and Japan’s fit to be hogtied and spanked like a girl pledging in a sorority.

    Round 1 the US and Brition should secure Africa and build up a fleet (US) and an IC + Ships (UK)

    Round 2 you start taking islands.  Sure, you’ll loose your transports to Jap subs, but he’ll have to move away from Japan, split his navy up, or give up those islands to stop you.  Any of the above plays into the hands of the allies since they can either clean up land and build a better fleet, take the jap fleet peicemeal or invade Asia/Japan (depending on defense forces.)



  • I REALLY wish I was not so backlogged on game comitments and that I did not have the Fall Tournament coming up… I’d LOVE to teach you a less Jen!

    Join the Tournament!  Maybe I can do it there!  :mrgreen:



  • I think that there are some surprising KJF maneuvers that will trick even experienced players, but that ultimately once those little smokescreens have been seen once, they are rendered ineffective.

    To let Germany go unhindered against Russia is much scarier than letting Japan going unhindered against Russia. Germany starts with more tanks on the board than all nations combined and has a 40 IPC income and is quite close to Russia, and can go into Africa easily. Normally Germany is on the defensive, but once it’s unleashed as in a KJF then things go downhill quickly.

    The problems are these:

    1. You cannot both pressure Japan adequately and stall Germany from Russia at the same time. It’s an either or situation. You can liberate Africa with US help, but doing so requires resources pulled away from Japan or requires the UK to do it on its own which is troublesome.
    2. There’s absolutely nothing you can do to prevent Japan from dropping 3 full rounds of production along Russia’s northern border. Combined with the German squeeze from the left, Russia is quickly starved and hopeless while Japan is huddling safely on its island.
    3. Grabbing Japanese islands hardly leads to a reasonably swift victory. What do you do with those IPCs? You still have to secure a way to produce land troops where it matters (shitloads of transports), and assaulting the Japanaese capital takes a very long time because it’s hard to attack an island that produces 8 units per turn.

    A KJF leads to some surprising conclusions when the Japanese player hasn’t seen it all, but in every case Germany is still monstrous.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Ah, but you don’t really NEED to take Japan.  You can jsut surround it with a dominant fleet, take those pesky ICs on the mainland for America and build American units there.  With a secure Eastern Front in Russia the Allies are undeafetable, IMHO.



  • Ah, but you don’t really NEED to take Japan.  You can jsut surround it with a dominant fleet, take those pesky ICs on the mainland for America and build American units there.  With a secure Eastern Front in Russia the Allies are undeafetable, IMHO.

    How long does this take to happen? 8-9 turns? The Eastern Front is already crashed with at least 3 full rounds of units being dumped into North Russia with nothing the US can do about it, and with Germany coming in hard from the West…


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Tri:

    With the right effort, it should take 3, maybe 4 turns to neutralize the Japanese fleet. (Neutralize means bottle them up where they can’t attack you and/or destroy them.)

    Yea, 5 ACs with 10 fighters and 21 transports in two sea zones is gunna be a huge mess to clean up.  But offensively speaking, it’s nothing more than man made reefs waiting to be placed at the bottom of the ocean.

    You take those islands, but a decent fleet around Japan to block them from retaking them.

    Send in the Marines and some British infantry to attack SE Asia with some minor reinforcements from Russia and you can keep Japan down to 8-11 IPCs a turn.  That’s 1 or 2 infantry and a tank a round, not exactly a threat to an American IC stolen from Japan in Kwangtung and a British IC in India.



  • I really want to teach you a lesson on US naval fleets Jen.  Sign up for the Tournament!  :mrgreen:

    And you REALLY should look at the game Ezto and I played.  Ezto when full-bore in the Pacific.  And Japan countered easilly.



  • I don’t see what purchases the US could make in 3 or 4 turns that couldn’t be countered by Japan.  Not only that but any US naval attack is telegraphed so Japan can also use their airforce.  What are your propsed purchases?



  • @ncscswitch:

    I really want to teach you a lesson on US naval fleets Jen.  Sign up for the Tournament!  :mrgreen:

    And you REALLY should look at the game Ezto and I played.  Ezto when full-bore in the Pacific.  And Japan countered easilly.

    Them’s fightin’ words!

    OOOOOOOOOOOO!!

    Why not get TripleA, both you guys . . . it’s freeware . . .



  • Won;t run on my dinosaur…

    But, I am correcting that… order is being placed for the new PC in 2 weeks 🙂



  • This is a post regarding the subject matter and a bit of a rant about my latest game…

    In my last game this past weekend, I played Axis and friend played Allies. The game started out as fun with Russia taking both West Russia and Ukraine with no losses. Yes, Russia lost nothing and Germany totally wiped. Undeterred, I played Germany as she should be played: went after British Navy and did a little hit and run on the Eastern Front trying to weaken the forces. Took Karelia but African invasion was a complete and total disaster. By R2 he was so seriously threatening Balkens I had to focus all forces on Europe, and UK was landing in Western Europe every turn (being smacked back but taking a toll nontheless).

    Through all of this, he decided to go heavy US navy. I had a decent pearl on J1 and started pumping troops across the border and made one fatal error… I decided to go after British posessions the Southern route and into Africa in order to take the pressure off Germany instead of going straight at Russia, but did this beacuse I thought Germany could hold out against UK/ USSR only with no American help. Meanwhile, he combined the India fleet in the South Indian Ocean and threatened to raid in right before the US attack with their fleet (approx 1BB, 2AC, 4SS, 4FTR, 1DD).

    The point of the post is that I easily countered it without breaking much of a sweat on the mainland (only pulled 1 fighter away for fleet defence) and crushed him in a battle just off Japan. Because of the Japanese pressure on Russia, he had to start keeping the INF home and so made one last desperation throw at Germany proper before he ran out of INF to support the attack. He won with 1 tank left because my fighters hit 2x in 9 attempts. Had I won that battle, Germany would have rearmed next turn and taken back at least 2 territores which were essentially bereft of Soviet Forces. And Japan would have whopped up on the USA.

    Point of post: I’m sore because I just seem to be unlucky with dice and going all out US Navy against Japan you had better play me with my bad dice rolls  :x



  • Eh did he attack you with his fleet or did you attack him ?
    I know it is early and stuff so i might have missed it but i cant seem to get that part of information from your post.



  • He attacked my fleet. I suppose he figured with the subs he could take out several of my main ships as he was rebuilding on the west coast but the subs didn’t hit at the level he wished.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @kyrial:

    He attacked my fleet. I suppose he figured with the subs he could take out several of my main ships as he was rebuilding on the west coast but the subs didn’t hit at the level he wished.

    That’s not what I’m espousing to do with a Strong US/UK fleet in the Pac.  You don’t attack the Jap fleet, you bottle it up and take all their assets away.  Japan can build plenty of defensive points against an American attack, but what do they do when that attack turns into a containment force?  Now they’re down 13 IPCs on islands, and at risk of loosing his 9 IPCs for land territories in Asia now that he cannot build fast enough to counter UK/USA/USSR land forces moving through Souther Asia and bolstering Middle and Northern Asia.

    Heck, once you have Japan locked on it’s island, who cares about him anymore?  Then, if you want too, you can throw a few subs at him a round with disposable income.  You should have plenty iwth the US making 42 starting + 13 islands + 2 Africa + 9 Asia.



  • OK Jen, time to put up or shut up on your great US Pacific move… a move that no one else here has ever been able to pull off with even a third of that level of success.

    ENTER THE TOURNAMENT!



  • I admit I would be very interested in seeing this strategy pulled off.

    Also, remember, if I hadn’t had terrible rolls for Germany I would have beaten off the combined UK/ Russia attack. And when Germany finally fell, it’s ONLY because he hit it three times in a row UK, USA (the ONLY time he hit with US forces) and USSR. I am fully confident that had we played another game, I would have been able to hold him off and recouperated as Germany and he WOULD have lost the game since Japan was just getting warmed up.



  • Your game does sound like one of those oddities… a not likely to ever be repeated situation.

    Another game, same starting point, same general tactics to start, would be key to seeing if the strat that beat you is indeed viable, or if it was just a fluke.


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