• I think that there are some surprising KJF maneuvers that will trick even experienced players, but that ultimately once those little smokescreens have been seen once, they are rendered ineffective.

    To let Germany go unhindered against Russia is much scarier than letting Japan going unhindered against Russia. Germany starts with more tanks on the board than all nations combined and has a 40 IPC income and is quite close to Russia, and can go into Africa easily. Normally Germany is on the defensive, but once it’s unleashed as in a KJF then things go downhill quickly.

    The problems are these:

    1. You cannot both pressure Japan adequately and stall Germany from Russia at the same time. It’s an either or situation. You can liberate Africa with US help, but doing so requires resources pulled away from Japan or requires the UK to do it on its own which is troublesome.
    2. There’s absolutely nothing you can do to prevent Japan from dropping 3 full rounds of production along Russia’s northern border. Combined with the German squeeze from the left, Russia is quickly starved and hopeless while Japan is huddling safely on its island.
    3. Grabbing Japanese islands hardly leads to a reasonably swift victory. What do you do with those IPCs? You still have to secure a way to produce land troops where it matters (shitloads of transports), and assaulting the Japanaese capital takes a very long time because it’s hard to attack an island that produces 8 units per turn.

    A KJF leads to some surprising conclusions when the Japanese player hasn’t seen it all, but in every case Germany is still monstrous.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Ah, but you don’t really NEED to take Japan.  You can jsut surround it with a dominant fleet, take those pesky ICs on the mainland for America and build American units there.  With a secure Eastern Front in Russia the Allies are undeafetable, IMHO.


  • Ah, but you don’t really NEED to take Japan.  You can jsut surround it with a dominant fleet, take those pesky ICs on the mainland for America and build American units there.  With a secure Eastern Front in Russia the Allies are undeafetable, IMHO.

    How long does this take to happen? 8-9 turns? The Eastern Front is already crashed with at least 3 full rounds of units being dumped into North Russia with nothing the US can do about it, and with Germany coming in hard from the West…

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Tri:

    With the right effort, it should take 3, maybe 4 turns to neutralize the Japanese fleet. (Neutralize means bottle them up where they can’t attack you and/or destroy them.)

    Yea, 5 ACs with 10 fighters and 21 transports in two sea zones is gunna be a huge mess to clean up.  But offensively speaking, it’s nothing more than man made reefs waiting to be placed at the bottom of the ocean.

    You take those islands, but a decent fleet around Japan to block them from retaking them.

    Send in the Marines and some British infantry to attack SE Asia with some minor reinforcements from Russia and you can keep Japan down to 8-11 IPCs a turn.  That’s 1 or 2 infantry and a tank a round, not exactly a threat to an American IC stolen from Japan in Kwangtung and a British IC in India.


  • I really want to teach you a lesson on US naval fleets Jen.  Sign up for the Tournament!  :mrgreen:

    And you REALLY should look at the game Ezto and I played.  Ezto when full-bore in the Pacific.  And Japan countered easilly.


  • I don’t see what purchases the US could make in 3 or 4 turns that couldn’t be countered by Japan.  Not only that but any US naval attack is telegraphed so Japan can also use their airforce.  What are your propsed purchases?


  • @ncscswitch:

    I really want to teach you a lesson on US naval fleets Jen.  Sign up for the Tournament!  :mrgreen:

    And you REALLY should look at the game Ezto and I played.  Ezto when full-bore in the Pacific.  And Japan countered easilly.

    Them’s fightin’ words!

    OOOOOOOOOOOO!!

    Why not get TripleA, both you guys . . . it’s freeware . . .


  • Won;t run on my dinosaur…

    But, I am correcting that… order is being placed for the new PC in 2 weeks :-)


  • This is a post regarding the subject matter and a bit of a rant about my latest game…

    In my last game this past weekend, I played Axis and friend played Allies. The game started out as fun with Russia taking both West Russia and Ukraine with no losses. Yes, Russia lost nothing and Germany totally wiped. Undeterred, I played Germany as she should be played: went after British Navy and did a little hit and run on the Eastern Front trying to weaken the forces. Took Karelia but African invasion was a complete and total disaster. By R2 he was so seriously threatening Balkens I had to focus all forces on Europe, and UK was landing in Western Europe every turn (being smacked back but taking a toll nontheless).

    Through all of this, he decided to go heavy US navy. I had a decent pearl on J1 and started pumping troops across the border and made one fatal error… I decided to go after British posessions the Southern route and into Africa in order to take the pressure off Germany instead of going straight at Russia, but did this beacuse I thought Germany could hold out against UK/ USSR only with no American help. Meanwhile, he combined the India fleet in the South Indian Ocean and threatened to raid in right before the US attack with their fleet (approx 1BB, 2AC, 4SS, 4FTR, 1DD).

    The point of the post is that I easily countered it without breaking much of a sweat on the mainland (only pulled 1 fighter away for fleet defence) and crushed him in a battle just off Japan. Because of the Japanese pressure on Russia, he had to start keeping the INF home and so made one last desperation throw at Germany proper before he ran out of INF to support the attack. He won with 1 tank left because my fighters hit 2x in 9 attempts. Had I won that battle, Germany would have rearmed next turn and taken back at least 2 territores which were essentially bereft of Soviet Forces. And Japan would have whopped up on the USA.

    Point of post: I’m sore because I just seem to be unlucky with dice and going all out US Navy against Japan you had better play me with my bad dice rolls  :x


  • He attacked my fleet. I suppose he figured with the subs he could take out several of my main ships as he was rebuilding on the west coast but the subs didn’t hit at the level he wished.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @kyrial:

    He attacked my fleet. I suppose he figured with the subs he could take out several of my main ships as he was rebuilding on the west coast but the subs didn’t hit at the level he wished.

    That’s not what I’m espousing to do with a Strong US/UK fleet in the Pac.  You don’t attack the Jap fleet, you bottle it up and take all their assets away.  Japan can build plenty of defensive points against an American attack, but what do they do when that attack turns into a containment force?  Now they’re down 13 IPCs on islands, and at risk of loosing his 9 IPCs for land territories in Asia now that he cannot build fast enough to counter UK/USA/USSR land forces moving through Souther Asia and bolstering Middle and Northern Asia.

    Heck, once you have Japan locked on it’s island, who cares about him anymore?  Then, if you want too, you can throw a few subs at him a round with disposable income.  You should have plenty iwth the US making 42 starting + 13 islands + 2 Africa + 9 Asia.


  • OK Jen, time to put up or shut up on your great US Pacific move… a move that no one else here has ever been able to pull off with even a third of that level of success.

    ENTER THE TOURNAMENT!


  • I admit I would be very interested in seeing this strategy pulled off.

    Also, remember, if I hadn’t had terrible rolls for Germany I would have beaten off the combined UK/ Russia attack. And when Germany finally fell, it’s ONLY because he hit it three times in a row UK, USA (the ONLY time he hit with US forces) and USSR. I am fully confident that had we played another game, I would have been able to hold him off and recouperated as Germany and he WOULD have lost the game since Japan was just getting warmed up.


  • Your game does sound like one of those oddities… a not likely to ever be repeated situation.

    Another game, same starting point, same general tactics to start, would be key to seeing if the strat that beat you is indeed viable, or if it was just a fluke.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’d love to try.


  • Please if someone (Jennifer, in this case specifically) is going to try this in a game make sure to let us know somehow so I can track the game in the other forum. I do try to follow that forum as much as possible but sometimes a few days go by and I won’t check it and I don’t want to miss out seeing this live in action!

  • Moderator

    I have another instance when the US can go Pacific.

    The first, I mentioned a game where Germany failed to take Egy on G1.  In that game my opponent went all out Pac with US and was very successful.
    I made mistakes but the failed attempt of Egy left UK/US with options it wouldn’t normally have.

    The second, I think if US gets 3 hits at Pearl on J1, it is possible.  This happened in my game with with Switch.  I didn’t go Pac though.  But I think it is possible looking back.
    I did counter Pearl since he only had 1 bb, 1 ac, 2 ftrs leftover.  I won with my bb left (which seems standard).  But I think you could probably go Pac in this case and be successful.  One, you can bring over the DD (sz 20) and you already have a BB and DD, While Japan has 1 bb, 1 ac, probably 3 trns left.  Now if you know you are doing a Pearl counter, with a buy of 1 ac with 1 ftr and 1 trn, you can have: 1 bb, 1 dd, 1 ac, 2 ftrs, 1 trn all in the Pac by the end of US 1.  I think this is a comparable force to Japan’s, at least defensively.  Now if you have the UK sub/trn nearby they could be added for fodder on a US 2 move in the South Pacific.  I think with the right purchases and moves you could be very successful against Japan.

    Now could Russia and UK slow down Germany???  That’d be the million dollar question and would depend on how rd 1 and 2 played out.

    But as it is, I can think of 2 scenerios where I’d consider a US Pacific strat: 
    1)  Germany had a bad run in Afr on G1 or
    2)  You got 3 hits at Pearl on J1, giving you a possible Pearl counter with pretty good numbers.


  • If USSR buys 4I/3A, and only attacks WR and plays defensive, then they can hold out 5-7 turns with minimal help while you KJF. After that, Japan better be on its knees and the allies ready to help USSR, or its toast.

    Squirecam

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @kyrial:

    Please if someone (Jennifer, in this case specifically) is going to try this in a game make sure to let us know somehow so I can track the game in the other forum. I do try to follow that forum as much as possible but sometimes a few days go by and I won’t check it and I don’t want to miss out seeing this live in action!

    If I do this it’ll be in a game labelled as “AAR US PAC STRAT” ;)  I won’t let it go in the dark.  Come hell or high water, I’m the gal that tries the different tactics!  Sometimes it works (SBR strat on Germany, standard games) sometimes it don’t work (Russia all out against Japan, forfeit West Asia to Germany…)


  • There’s a pretty funny thing you can do if you send a UK fighter to defend Pearl and both it and the carrier lives: double island hopping. On turn 1 the US can take Solomon Islands, then on turn 2 the UK can take New Guinea using the tran from under Australia+ the fighter on the US carrier. The US follows up by taking East Indies on turn 2 and on turn 3 then the UK goes and takes Borneo. This of course assumes that Japan is merely playing defensive with its navy and is not concerned about taking the initiative and attacking you.

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