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Can the US have naval superiority?



  • I usually play in five person games and for some reason the last two people who played the US have tried to take out the Japanese fleet, which as the Russian player frustrates me to no end.  I tried to explain to them several times that they should defend the west coast a couple of ships and INF in the WUS but they insist that naval superiority is key.  So my question to the experts is:  Is it even possible for the US to gain naval superiority in the Pacific?
        Japan starts with a navy twice the size of the US and if Japan goes after Russia (which they do) after a couple of rounds they will be able to match or exceed any US purchases in the Pacific.  So I think that naval supremacy in the Pacific is already Japans and they won’t lose it.  Meanwhile I am fighting Germany by myself because the US isn’t protecting Africa or UK transports which get killed by the Luftwaffe.  Am I wrong or does the US need to be in the Atlantic?  If someone knows how to crush the JPN fleet that would be helpful too.



  • There is no need for naval superiority. If the US wants to engage in the pacific it only needs a fleet suficiently strong to cover the island hopping. The ultimate goal is not to match the jap fleet and conquer Tokyo, it´s to take Berlin.
    Any american pacific campaign should be focused on ipc grabbing. The japanese fleet may attack and though be bound (fighters included) and any captial ships lost in these battles may be replaced easier by the US than by Japan, the Imperial Amry should be too busy to increase asian landholds and pressure to Russia. If ships are bought anyway, that´s good for mother Russia, because it means less  new ground forces.

    As naval superiority is not the goal, after US 2-3 half of its income has to be dedicaded to the atlantic, to achieve ultimate victory:The conquest of germany! A pacific campaign should have slowed Japan sufficiently to not attack Moskwa before.


  • Official Answers 2007 AAR League

    My personal philosophy as the US is to stay out of the Pacific. Garrison the West Coast but you can’t buy enough Navy fast enough to compete with what Japan has on the board. Especially if the Japan player is willing to trade it or make you fight on his terms. I don’t feel that you can get enough Warships and troops and troop ships to appreciable affect the war with a Pacific fleet. I have been having more succes concentrating on Germany. We’ll see how my current game turns out as I exercise this philosophy again.



  • Yes, it IS possible for the US to achieve naval superiority in the Pacific… and to do so without the loss of Russia.

    Russia goes offesnive the first two turns on Germany, and stages all Eastern units except Kazakh, plus an ARM, to be used to strike into the heart of Japan.

    UK has to go full-bore on support for Russia, and they need to get their navy FAST, before they lose Africa, with a bit of US help to keep things from getting insane immediately.

    But yes, with starting FIGs, conservative builds, and careful staging, Russia can hold back Japan long enough for the US to divert Japan’s attention.  Then you are back to Russian and UK against Germany and US against Japan.


  • 2007 AAR League

    When playing a 5 player game the major weakness of the allies, lack of co-ordination, becomes a major concern.  The axis players can pretty much pursue their own short-term goals.  The allies on the other hand aren’t strong enough to mount an effective campaign without the support of the other allied players.  I suggest FDR, Churchill, & Stalin meet in Tehran to map out their strategy.  😛

    But to answer your question there are a number of strategies for a pacific campaign.  When I go for a pacific strategy I try to do 2 things, 1. Split the Japanese fleet & 2. Get them to attack me.  You will need some help from the UK.

    Combine the UK Indian & Aussie fleets in SZ30 (1fgt, 1ac, 1dd, 1sub, 2trn) japan can attack with 2fgt 1ac 1bb.  Japan will most likely win the battle but will lose part of their fleet.

    If Japan attacks Pearl Harbor with capital ships (ac bb) counter-attack with your bb, trn, fgt (from W. US), fgt from Hawaii & bomber from E. US.  You will most likely lose all of these but if you can deal a serious blow to half the Japanese fleet.

    On US1 build at least an AC & transport plus other Naval/Air units, move the dd from sz20 to the US west coast.

    After the 3 battles in Round 1 Japan’s fleet should be much dimished & you have a new US fleet to start threatening japan’s IPC lifeline in the South pacific.



  • I dont know if this is possible because everytime I play, they always do the KGF strategy (ive played as axis like 4 times already lol).  I have yet to play someone, whom as the US, has succesfully had a pacific war and a north africa/european war.  It really bums me out because im always expecting to have a really tough and furious pacific campaign, but they never do.  😢  Someday……someone will do it.  😉



  • I have been Japan when a US build up occurred and when he attacked me I annihilated him.  All it did was prolong the fall of moscow.  However this time I am Russia and the fact that I am receiving no support against Germany is frustrating.  I can hold out for another 2 to 3 turns but after that I am toast.  It will take my allies at least that many turns to build the infrastructure that should have built on turns 1 and 2.  Oh well.


  • 2007 AAR League

    If the Allies are going to go after Japan, then GO AFTER THEM. Use Russian Asian units to challenge every Japanese gain in Asia by pushing 6 infantry into Bury and at least 4 infantry into Sinkiang on R1. The UK should build the Indian IC and load as many units into as you can and, if possible, reinforce it with a few Russian units to help get it off the ground. Also, use the UK aircraft to help with the India IC or defense of Russian territories. DO NOT split the US builds. Germany already has a head start with the UK Indian IC and any units built in the Atlantic by the US are just a speedbump for Germany. Build maximum force in the Indian IC and use the rest of their cash to build infantry in UK to prevent a German invasion. After UK is solidly held, keep building in India and use any excess IPC’s to build fighters (priority) and a couple inf, if possible, to support the Russians against Germany.  The US should build nothing but navy in the Pacific until naval equality is achieved and move everything into the Pacific including the Atlantic DD’s, TP’s and E US ground units. Then begin the island hopping. The UK should be hiding the Australia TP and sub in an out of the way corner to immediatley add fodder to the US navy when they move in the Solomans. Or you can use the India fighter and Australia sub to attack the Japanese sub in the Solomans and land the fighter on the US Hawaiian CV to do more damage in case Japan attacks. Use the Indian Ocean fleet to draw a portion of the Japanese fleet away from the Pacific.

    If the Japanese attack Bury they will make gains in Asia but the US fleet in Hawaii is safe and, with US naval builds, should quickly become more than the Japanese fleet can handle. If they attack Hawaii then their navy will be smaller and easier to deal with and the allies in Asia can easily mop up any Japanese ground units and take some money from them.

    The goal is to provide Japan with far too many targets to handle and ultimately either take Japan in exchange for Germany taking Russia or to contain them to the home island so you can turn and challenge Germany with the allies before they take Russia.

    This strategy is by no means foolproof, either. It can be slow to develop, Germany is essentially given a free hand in Africa and Europe, and if Japan can bog down the allied offensives, then Germany will overrun Russia before Japan can be put into a manageable position. And I wouldn’t recommend using it if Germany builds Baltic transports on G1 because the UK will be left pretty bare in the early rounds.



  • When I play the US I split my spending about 50/50 between the Atlantic and the Pacific.  I usually have pretty good UK and USSR player(s) so I can afford alittle more in the Pacific.  In the Atlantic I build a few Transports and land units to go with my 2Tran and 2Dest(1 from Panama) and just bring units to Algeria every turn to prevent German expansion. 
          The rest goes into a AC, some Trans, in the Pacific, and few FIGs and a bunch of Tanks and Inf in West US.  What I do with this is move all my land forces to Alaska. and my Fleet to the SZ off Alaska.  Then I start to ferry units into eastern Russian to help against Japanese invasion of Russia.  If the Japanese go through India or China I can push my forces South maybe taking back China and Manchuria. 
          A key thing to this tactic is to never attack the Japanese Fleet, unless they give u a apportunity like leaving trans undefended.  Let them come to you so you have the extra defense of the FIGs defending on 4s and the 3-4 Trans defending on a 1.

    A wierd thing is ive never attacked a Japanese Island Terroritory after playying atleast 30 Games.  Ive seen Britain Island Hope before using the Austrailean Infantry and the combined fleets in the SouthEast on two occasions.  Is that a normal occurence?  Id rather invest in sending land units through the mainland to prevent the lose of Russia.



  • 1.  The Allies should decide what strategy they are going to use BEFORE the game.

    2.  As the USSR player, you are really responsible for the USSR.  You should not dictate to the US player how to play the US.

    If the US is going after Japan, then the US should move the Atlantic fleet to the Pacific, build subs, carriers, fighters, transports, and infantry.  UK should build massive air to kill the German Baltic fleet, then transports and infantry.



  • While I posted above about what is POSSIBLE, I am not saying that it is ADVISABLE.

    If you want somethign other than a straight KGF, but do not want the risk of KJF, then try SJF… SLOW Japan First.

    1.  All USSR units east of Russia (except Kazakh) stage for advances into Japan mainland territories.  Use 1-2 ARM for punch power on the attacks.
    2.  US IC in Sinkiang to provide a few ARM to harrass Japan, and lots of FIGs to create a hard point to slow Japan down.
    3.  Use India forces to take FIC
    4.  Mass UK fleet in UK 1 to give Japan another target besides Pearl

    It is not enough to kill Japan first, but with the 18 INF divisions that the Allies can bring to bear, plus a couple of ARM from Russia, it sure as hell will prevent a quick economic build-up of Japan.

    Along with this, the US lands in Africa to keep Germany from grabbing and keeping that income, the UK lands to support Russia’s northern territories, and Russia sets up central europe as a dead zone, trading territories to keep their income up while the UK gears up to be dropping 8 divisions a turn, US 4 divisions a turn, and Russia 8 divisions a turn in Europe.

    You can achieve all of this by Turn 2.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Here’s an Island hopping strategy I have used in the past.  On US1 build 1 ac 1 dd 1 trn 2 inf in W. US, land your W. US & Hawaii fgt on the carrier move the dd from panama to w. us.  On US2 load 2 inf from W. US & 2 inf from Hawaii & land in the Solomons.  You will want to build some follow up forces in W. US.  On US3 land in East Indies or Borneo (both are 4 IPC Islands) On US4 take the other Island this puts a serious cramp in Japans income.  Keep building follow up forces in W. US (on turns 3&4) & move them towards your fleet, be sure to stay out of range of the Japanese fleet.

    While all this is going on, don’t ignore the atlantic but use your forces to back up landings by the UK in either N. Europe or Africa.



  • @jsp4563:

    Here’s an Island hopping strategy I have used in the past.  On US1 build 1 ac 1 dd 1 trn 2 inf in W. US,

    {snip}

    While all this is going on, don’t ignore the atlantic but use your forces to back up landings by the UK in either N. Europe or Africa.

    Um, with that build you HAVE no other forces in the Atlantic, except your starting units… 2 TRN and a DST.  And unless UK has already taken out the German Navy and a nice chunk of AF, your Atlantic forces are toast… you get 1 shipment at most into either Africa or UK before your paltry Atlantic forces are sunk.

    Also, sailing to Solomons first puts you exactly in range of everything that Japan has left for Naval units, as well as large portions of their air power… assuming you can even get to Solomons through the occupied Hawaii SZ…


  • 2007 AAR League

    if us takes borneo, new guinea, east indies, and philipines then assuming they lose the chinese territories their income will be at 50 they can build in the east us as well



  • You are still talking a LONG delay for major US entry to Europe if you are going to get EI and Borneo first.

    If you want to go heavy in the Pacific, start on US2 instead of US1 with it.

    In US 1, get your Atlantic fleet together, and the land units they will transport.  Then stage in SZ9 for a direct out and back transit to Africa, leaving ytour fleet in SZ12 at the end of each move.  That threatens Western AND Southern to help hold Germany back from a full-scale offensive on Russia, as well as allowing the US to secure Africa (or kick the Germans out, reducing their income).

    THEN you can start building in the Pacific (and keeping your Atlantic TRNs full).

    This has the added advantage of letting Japan start their pull-out from the Pacific, heading for India, etc., before the US starts their build-up.  Sure, those ships will come back, but it costs Japan an extra round to react.



  • I understand that each country is in the end responsible for itself but if the Russian player makes his R1 moves assuming or after deciding on a KGF strat, then the US player does a 100% Pacific build as Russia you are going to be hurting.  I don’t think the US needs to do anything in the Pacific except prevent a Japanese invasion, and should send its units towards Europe.  However pacific builds will slow the Japanese assault on Mother Russia.  Buying time is great, but if it is only slowing the demise of Russia then what.  If Moscow falls it is really hard for the Allies to recover.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    With 13 IPCs in japanese islands in the Pacific, it would make sense to me for the US to go for Super Submarines and go at it with AC + TRN + INF + ARM and/or BB + TRN + INF + ARM while harrying the Japanese navy with 2-4 Super Submarines per round.

    Eventually Japan will just get whittled down while the US forces can maintain 97% of American land value without any effort at all.

    Perhaps the US needs to send a bomber or three and a couple of fighters to England to help defend and SBR Germany a bit.



  • Three Words…

    Air Force  and Germany

    Super Subs are worth jack against Japan’s AF.  And a single DST drastically reduces their effectiveness even aginst Naval units (they still defend on 2’s, and with just 1 DST they cannot run away…)
    And while the US is spending $36 IPC’s in the Pacific on 4 super subs (AFTER they develop them), Germany has sunk the UK fleet and is pounding on Moscow’s door… building in Caucuses for shites and giggles.



  • If the US wants to develop a navy wouldn’t the Atlantic be a better place for it?  The Navy can be used to protect US and UK transports against the Luftwaffe.  After Germany is in shambles you could send it through the Suez and fight Japan from both directions if you so please.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @ncscswitch:

    Three Words…

    Air Force  and Germany

    Super Subs are worth jack against Japan’s AF.  And a single DST drastically reduces their effectiveness even aginst Naval units (they still defend on 2’s, and with just 1 DST they cannot run away…)
    And while the US is spending $36 IPC’s in the Pacific on 4 super subs (AFTER they develop them), Germany has sunk the UK fleet and is pounding on Moscow’s door… building in Caucuses for shites and giggles.

    Well, I was assuming the US puts in just enough cash into the atlantic to stop Germany from taking out the british fleet.  That’s why I put such a large fluctuation in the number of SS-X into their per round.

    And yes, 1 DD stops subs from retreating, but it’s only 1 DD.  1 Sub hit and it’s gone just like anything else.  Besides, teh point of the subs is to annoy Japan, not to defeat it.  USSR/UK can do that just fine with 0 Japanese intervention because it’s busy fighting off American privateers.



  • There is indeed more then just the KGF strategy for the allies ( although it is the easiest strat by far )

    US has the power to spend a bit on the atlantic helping UK and USSR troops  while building up in the pacific. To keep germany off USSR should have more units defending then germany has attacking it hardly makes a difference if these are all 1 color or 3 different colors. Remember that time is on the side of the allies keep germany and japan smaller then you and you will overcome then in the end.



  • If you are going to go KJF, you have to do it full-bore.

    If you divert major resources to the Pacific, then the US is going to be weak or non-existent against Germany.  That means that the US has to make PROGRESS and ADVANCE against Japan… and QUICKLY.

    A few super subs, 2-3 turns into the game is not making progress against Japan.  It is sending IPC’s into the water to be sunk.

    You can HARASS japan with your intial forces in the Pacific.  You can even build an IC in Sinkiang for FIGs and ARM, which, once Japan gets too strong for those forces to successfully harass, can be evacuated to Moscow to aid in defense.  But anything more than that, and your harassment of Japan simply means a lot of dead US IPC’s in the form of sunk navy.  And it leaves UK to try to build up a fleet to survive/defeat the Kreigsmarine w/o assistance, and that takes a few turns to accomplish… around UK 3 or UK 4 the UK will be ready to start landings… if any TRN’s survive the attack and counter-attack of the Luftwafe and Baltic Fleet.

    Meanwhile, Germany has raided 9+ IPC from UK in Africa and pushed Russia back to be trading Caucues.  Germany is in the mid 50 IPC range by about G4, while UK is just begining to make landings… assumign they did well on the naval battles and don;t have to rebuild all of their trannies, and UK is reduced to just INF for 4 TRNs, because that is all they can afford.  And it will take a few turns for them to get enough INF in position to do much against Germany…

    If you are going to KJF, do it right.  Spend the $ on surface ships and TRNs by the US in the Pacific. 
    Have Russia divert AT LEAST all eastern INF, plus a couple of ARM, and even 1 or 2 of their FIGs for battle in Asia.
    UK will need to just realize that Africa belongs to Germany for a while, and go after FIC and anythign else they can get to (which may be some islands if they were able to preserve any of their fleet).

    And while doing that, get every INF and FIG into Europe you can to try to keep Germany from taking and holding Caucuses, WR, Karelia and Archangel…



  • Well with the starting US-atlantic forces you can do pretty nice things, that dont costs anything for the pacific campagne.

    Landing in algeria turn 1 with 2 inf 1 art + 1 arm is nice vs the germans there. Or just position them to strike at finland on US2.

    Pushing 4 inf every other turn into europe as US wont make a difference in your budget but will make the difference for russia, and you can still go all out VS Japan. You dont need an attack fleet but a defence fleet so AC + dest + trannies are good enough. Let him come to you even if he wins you just replace while he just lost irreplaceable stuff.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Kinda what I was thinking Hawk.

    Maybe add a destroyer or a couple of subs a round to supplement losses to the current American fleet while not diverting what you need for Europe.  After all, if you have 6 trannies (two groups of three shuttling troops) the most you’ll ever need is 3 tanks, 3 infantry per round for the shuttling process.  That could leave 10-14 IPCs a round to “play” with.


  • Official Answers 2007 AAR League

    I don’t know, all out to me against Japan means you can threaten a landing on the home island  or in FIC that has a chance to succeed  and stay there and be reinforced before the Japanese have moved enough stuff to attempt an attack on Moscow. How many TRNs and INF and FTRs and ARM and RTL is that? You need a lot of navy, 😮 to KJF.


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