Invading the soviet union with lighting war continued

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 I guess when does this Italian assault happen on France? I don’t see any realm where Italy is successful against France. France out-produces Italy really soon.

    Anything against France is happening after the assaults on the USSR have begun, right? I’d just be shocked to see Italy have any success!

    I don’t think Germany could stay neutral either. Why wouldn’t the Allies attack them? I know I wouldn’t just sit still as the Allies in this scenario while the Axis attempted to steamroll the USSR.

    I guess I’d have to see your money breakdown for what gets what to get the numbers you got. But I think when Allied wartime bonuses come into play I think it would get hard for the Axis!

  • @chris_henry Defending is better than attacking. The Allies wouldn’t really attack Germany, at least not successfully, because of the defense the Germans will be putting up (which shall compose of infantry militia, and artillery mostly). The Allies won’t have much of a choice when it comes to attacking spots, if they don’t force through the Danish straits, which will take a toll on their navy, and trap it in the Baltic. Now thinking about it, Italy could stay neutral, and lend lease to the Germans and make capital ships for that one victory condition, and that one away from the British. Those numbers are if Japan takes their half of russia and China with the money islands, and Germany takes their half of Russia with the Baltic states and Yugoslavia and thelassy with turkey and I raq alliened

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 I guess I’m having a really hard time envisioning how the Axis are going to possibly be able to have the units available to do all this?

    I get that defending is better. But think of this from an Allied perspective. If what you plan actually happens, and the USSR is getting steamrolled, in what world would the Allies just sit back and do nothing? They’d just lose and concede the game if they just sat there and did nothing! They’d be forced to attack, even if the odds were against them. Otherwise you might as well just pick up the board and start the game over, right?

    I guess I just don’t see how France is defeated here either. There’s no way in my mind Italy can defeat them. Even if all of Italy’s starting game units were shipped to Northern Italy, France’s income levels will quickly outpace them, especially if Italy just stays neutral as you mention maybe doing! Hell, just with Germany’s invasion of Poland alone France could reach wartime income, not to mention the bonuses for the USSR being attacked, and Slovakia, Austria, Bohemia, and Chinese territories being invaded. It just won’t take long from France to outproduce Italy. Then you sprinkle in UK reinforcements there too!

    We might just have fundamental differences on what we think the enemy would do here. I just don’t see a realm where in this scenario the Axis have anything near the defensive forces needed to just keep the Allies contained in France, while getting the kind of push into Russia that you’re envisioning and the forces that would also require!

    I’ll really be curious to hear how this turns out for you!

  • @chris_henry Italy, with their little income, will spend it on capital ships (to the UK try to counter). Germany, in itself won’t have to defend in may areas, since its taking really few western territories=limited western response. The defensive war basically starts once both powers declare war on you, which there is a ~42% chance that at least one of them won’t be able to declare war on you (France most likely). you can drop a fort there later and build infantry and militia, which then if France attacks and fails, they might as well lose alasce-lorraine, then Paris, and this way, Germans will won’t have to concentrate on two fronts, but only defending one front.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 How do you figure neither one would be able to declare war? If you’re invasion of the USSR starts in 1939, there’s a strong chance both the UK and France are at wartime income by 1940. Assuming other peacetime income increases have kicked in (annexation of Bohemia, Austria, Slovakia each give +1; invasion of Poland will have both a +2D12 roll; invasion of USSR gives +5 to France and a +D12 to the UK). Unless those D12 rolls hit on snake eyes, France declares war right as the USSR is attacked in 1940, right? A bit more chance for the UK to miss, but they too have a very strong chance, especially if Japan has triggered more increases by invading China at this point.

    Like I said, I just can’t picture the Axis man power being available to ignore the west like that, while maintaining a strong enough offense force against the USSR as well! But I’d be curious to see how it plays out for you!

  • @chris_henry By 1940 it is basically a fact that they’ll be at war (Britain + France with Germany). The USSR is knocked out early, and major hostilities would end in 4-5 turns and the soviet union would probably end up hiding in the Caucasus mountains for a lot of the game (if they attack they will probably die and the Allies will have to face a larger enemy) and what ever factories that are made in that time could be bombed and basically they will be at a standstill. In Bavaria, They can build 5 infantry costing about 15IPPs. Combine that with the fort and now you have 5 6s, which means that the allies, to match in power will have to spend 30 IPPs (medium armor).

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 Okay, so I see a bit more now. You’re plan is to have the USSR defeated in like 2 turns then? Sorry, I saw your cool map graphics, but maybe didn’t really understand the context.

    I just don’t see how the Axis take out the USSR in two turns, and then have the strength to somehow counter the Allies in the West who will be waiting to pounce the moment they can. I just can’t imagine a Comintern player or Allied player(s) making enough terrible decisions to really kill themselves like this!

    I think you’d have to leave more men in the USSR than you’re thinking too. Depending on how deep you push, the USSR might still have about 15 IPP a turn (maybe less depending on Japan), and the Allies and Comintern would almost assuredly work together to get a Lend-Lease path, even if that means working together to take out Iran and get a port and rail line connecting to the USSR. With the Allies untouched to this point, I think you see 3-4 lend-leased units to the USSR in this way every single turn!

    But let’s turn the defense is better thing against the Axis. The Allies can also get a lot of their Victory Objectives in this Scenario. Add in the Victory Cities stay in their favor, it might be a close game. What’s to stop the Allies from building up and staying on the defensive, and now forcing the Germans to attack them, and have the worse go of it fighting defending units?

    Here’s a thought I keep having: this game would be considered broken if the USSR could so easily be taken out in two turns, and then the Allies would be helpless to do anything themselves, wouldn’t it? This implies it’s really easy for the Axis to win the whole game I’d have to think!

    Well, I think we might fundamentally disagree on what’s realistic then haha. I think we’re just talking over each other on what we both think is realistically possible to happen!

    I think it’s really ambitious, and like I said, I’d love to hear how it works for you!

    I think this conversation is part of what makes this game so fun though. There’s a ton of options out there to be considered, and all individual players will try and do things differently!

  • @chris_henry The amount of victory cities would be equal, 5 (Berlin, Rome, Tokyo, Nanking, and most importantly, Moscow.) to 5( the rest), unless Calcutta Falls (to Japan). Yes, I plan to have most of the USSR in a couple turns. For lend- lease, you need ports, which all could be taken within a few turns (air transport to Leningrad), later take Kola via airborne attack (if they hadn’t lend-lease any units there), I will use my armor to take unoccupied zones then later I would go south. The Japanese are crucial to take large land gains and helping Germany with a surrender onto the USSR. It would be a close game, but I think by default the Allies would lose. The Italian would easily grab a french territory near the end of the game and with Wartime Economy cash reserves could defend the Island.

    As a side note, it would be really cool if they added some Really Hard VPs as bonuses like Conquering the USA, or Italy takes over Africa, Taking all axis Capitals.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 That would be a neat one haha. I have to imagine though nothing like that exists because if they were possibly happening, the game is probably already decided, you know what I mean? Like, if someone is completely conquering the USA, that player is obviously already winning the whole game with the VP’s that are already at hand!

  • @chris_henry But what if the Comintern is at the Gates of Berlin? Naval Power doesn’t help you with the might of the Russian Infantry.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 I guess that’s possible. From my perspective, I can’t even fathom an Axis player going for the USA/North America without having first conquered the USSR! I guess I was assuming a practicality point of view, but I suppose something like this could happen!

  • @chris_henry For me, there are two way to play with germany, Naval boss or land boss. Going back to the other topic, it may be close, but I think it would be an axis victory

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 Gotcha. I think about it as more of a little balance, but lean more to stronger land power. I like to have subs out there to reek havoc, but don’t like to dump vast amounts of IPP into naval units for the Germans! Heavy navy is always interesting to see from the Germans. I think of that as a high risk/high reward situation! Could go south real quick, but if it works out, the Allies could really be stymied to the point where you won’t need to worry about them too much!

    Yeah, I guess I’d need to see the whole strategy play out. I still think this leaves the Allies with enough build up to overpower the Axis in the end, but certainly could be wrong! I’m just thinking of all the units the Axis will lose in combat and have to replace, while the Allies sit untouched. Though true the build up might be slower as they have to work up to wartime economies!

  • @chris_henry Well, we’ll see then.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17

    @david-06 Yeah, let me know how it goes!

  • @david-06 some thoughts from a player who just used lightning war against the Soviets in my current game.

    Italy has stayed neutral and for a number of earlier turns Lend leased its $10 to Germany.

    Germany moved through Belgium , taking Picardy the next turn (threatening lightning war with slow movers to surround Paris) and then marched straight into Paris in Jan ‘39. Note that the French and British had split forces between Paris and Aquitaine.

    German goal was to take Moscow with lightning war.
    And with no production the next turn (because of no $) Germany would easily sweep up the rest of Russia .

    Germany’s income was spent to hold the beaches against UK amphibious assaults and to build fast movers for the attack on Moscow. In July of 39 the Molotov pact was signed and Germany blitzed into Warsaw and conquered western Poland and Warsaw. Warsaw will be my staging ground to assault Russia.

    In July ‘39 a major power CCP and the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and squeezed Japan out of Manchuria.
    In Jan ‘40 the Soviet Union noticed my build of of tanks and mechs in Warsaw and my eastern factories
    In Ian 40 the Soviet Union used their mobilize the reserves ability and placed many reinforcements into Moscow and Stalingrad, and destroyed minor factories in Smolensk and Kiev and evacuated Leningrad’s factory (I think) and left behind a ghost force on the border with Germany.

    In July of 40 (Germany’s last chance to use lightning war) I used lightning war to hit many Russian cities and territories but was unable to assault Moscow or Stalingrad as they were too far away or too heavily reinforced. (Even with the surprise strike ability) I also took the 2 Caucasus regions using a paratroooper that was based in Romania.

    The attack greatly swung things in my favor and away from Russia . After my lighting war turn I gathered units to threaten Stalingrad with what I could (ended up not. Being enough)

    The next turn I assaulted a Soviet push out of Moscow into west Russia smashing him but then losing all of my tanks and mechs to a counterattack from Moscow and units that could reach from Stalingrad.

    I feel like I was quite unlucky that I could not assault Moscow with lightning war due to the Soviet build up because of his DOW 2 turns prior against Japan and the mobilize the reserves ability to build land units on the cheap.
    I also made a bad attack against the west Russia push by Soviet troops from Moscow.

  • [link text](German Strategy Video Teaser)

  • @theveteran I wonder if it’s possible to take France and hit USSR with your lightning war before 39 so that they couldn’t declare war first and mobilize

  • @linkler to attack the Soviets in July 39 before they have an opportunity to declare war first Germany will only have one turn to purchase tanks and mechs and place them in range to get to Warsaw/Romania in Jan 39 and then to Moscow in July 39 with the lightning war. There will not be enough units to capture Moscow with that. Germany doesn’t have enough production slots available to put enough down in that first purchase. - remember that the first turn
    You are able to purchase blitzing medium tanks is July 38.

    Also: you are going to attempt to sign the Molotov pact with the Soviets to buy you that time needed to build up your tanks and mechs (and position them in Warsaw/Romania)

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