• @plasticknight So long as an airbase is in a landzone that is adjacent to that sea zone I don’t see any reason why the Germans would be prevented from scrambling.

    Your second example seems to be a little more tricky but you just have to break down the situation. Once all combat movement is completed the defending player then determines if they want to scramble and participate in whichever combat action: MAP defense or attack the surface ships. If the subs can survive the MAP attack then they would remain in that sea zone. Should the defending player attack the ‘cruisers’ that entered that sea zone then the defending planes would have no impact on the MAP attack/defense. Just my thinking…


  • @plasticknight It is my understanding that with your first scenario, the German player could scramble the fighters to support the submarines. The restriction on the MAP+DD pairing is limiting to the attacking player in this scenario, not the defending player.

    My take on how the situation would work with your second question is:

    1. The attacking player moves multiple attacking ships moving into SZ11. Following Page 37, “Clarifying Ordering Effect”, the attacking player announces his intention.
    2. The defending player announces what he wants to do with his submarines - intercept the moving units, or allow them to continue moving. Let’s say the defending player does not intercept.
    3. The attacking player completes all combat movements.
    4. The defending player now gets to decide if he wants to scramble fighters from Western Germany. Let’s say he does so.
    5. The attacking player rolls for all his units, but tracks separately if his MAP and DD get hits.
    6. The defending player will select his casualties. If he wants, he can pick submarines to be killed by non-MAP+DD pair, but if he doesn’t want that, he would take all the non-MAP+DD pair hits on fighters, then take any left over MAP+DD pair hits on the submarines.
    7. At this point, the defending player can decide if he wants his submarines to submerge, or roll. He can even decide that if he wants a submarine that is going to die shoot back before dying.

  • Thanks for the replies!

    @vondox In line with your thinking (perhaps), I do not feel UK’s additional ships can roll against the scrambling fighters as they are not technically making a combat move, correct? They are only accompanying the MAP fighter+DD in their battle against the two subs. And I believe the rules only allow scrambling against enemy forces performing combat in an adjacent SZ or landzone.

    But… then my response as the UK player would be to state the accompanying surface fleet is blockading West Germany’s naval facilities in SZ11, which technically is a combat action, yes?

    If so, then would those two combat actions (blockading port and MAP+DD attack against subs) be considered separate and thereby allow the scrambling aircraft to decide in which battle to defend? Instead of being forced to defend both?

    @HBG-GW-Enthusiast So you suggest that German scramblers would have to defend against the entire UK force? I can see this as well but with a little more faith as the UK ships (besides the pairing DD) are not participating in the battle German fighters are defending against.

    For what it’s worth, I am playing this game solo (the game is new to me and I have no one willing to play haha) so either way I won’t be too upset!


  • My thinking here is that as Germany I would like to position my subs by themselves in SZ11 and use the airbase to provide cover against MAP attacks. But if the UK can place the entire Home Fleet into SZ11 alongside the MAP attack and use the fleet to attack scramblers, then scrambling is an unwise choice.


  • @plasticknight Yes. In the second scenario, if the Home Fleet moves into Sea Zone 11, then the German player will cower and not scramble any fighters because the Home Fleet would annihilate them. So then, the MAP+DD pair would get their single rolls to hit any German subs. If they got a hit, the hit submarine could fire back, attempting to kill the Destroyer. If they missed, the submarines would submerge.


  • @hbg-gw-enthusiast Thank you for taking the time to reply, I will go with this answer even though I’m still scratching my head a little on the role those UK surface ships are playing in the MAP battle. I have found submarine warfare/MAP/convoy raiding to be both among the most nuanced and interesting aspects of the game. I’ve lurked this forum on numerous occasions to clarify the exact rules in a situation and expect I will do so many times in the future! :joy:


  • @plasticknight

    I’m still scratching my head a little on the role those UK surface ships are playing in the MAP battle

    Think of it this way, there isnt a MAP battle and a normal battle that occurs in the zone; There is one single battle where 2 units (MAP and Destroyer) can hit submarines, and all other units that attack normally.


  • @insanehoshi Thank you, that definitely simplifies the scenario. But - at the risk of coming across extremely pedantic - in this case what are those other units actually attacking besides what’s for all purposes an empty SZ since they cannot engage those subs? Can ships attack what is effectively an empty SZ?

    If the UK says the combat action those ships are performing is a naval blockade, the rules prohibit scrambling aircraft from participating in more than one battle, if I understand correctly (at least, they can’t both scramble and defend their originating landzone). So in this case they could seemingly choose to scramble either against the MAP attack or the naval blockade, but not both?

    Forgive me I may be completely off the mark on some or all of this!

    And my apologies guys if I come across argumentative, just mentally torn on what the rules allow here. Plus it feels extra frustrating in a solo game to position my German subs forward just to find out on my UK turn that I’ve likely only fed those subs to the lion! LOL


  • @plasticknight

    in this case what are those other ships actually attacking besides what’s for all purposes an empty SZ since they cannot engage those subs?

    I assume they are there detering the other aircraft from scrambling.

    Can ships attack what is effectively an empty SZ?

    Yes, because the defender can always decide to not submerge his sub and fight as normal.

    So in this case they could seemingly choose to scramble either against the MAP attack or the naval blockade, but not both?

    A blockade isnt a battle, despite it being a combat move. Plus the aircraft need a defending unit to scramble to which establishing a blockade does not have by definition.

    And my apologies guys if I come across argumentative, just mentally torn on what the rules allow here

    None Needed!

    Any time a sub ends a turn next to a zone with an aircraft, its in danger; thats part of the whole game within a game that is submarine hunting.


  • @insanehoshi Ah, these are all very good points. Especially regarding the need for a defending unit to allow scrambling. Thank you, I’ll take this as a rested case.


  • @insanehoshi InsaneHoshi is the best! He’s much better at explaining than I am! :smile:

  • '20 '16

    @plasticknight It may make more sense to you if you rethink one part. The UK navy CAN attack the subs. The difference is the subs MAY submerge before the UK navy gets to fire. So, they aren’t moving into an empty zone, or doing a non-combat move. They are attacking…just likely to fail in their attack, as the subs are likely to submerge. But it’s still an attack. The subs might fight! Take on the whole navy! They have target select. Maybe they risk it all for a shot at a loaded transport, damaged battleship, etc.

    There is also a note in the combat movement section that says, “Note that combat may not always occur as sometimes one or both players will be given the choice to engage in combat or not.” You may combat move anywhere combat MAY occur…no matter how unlikely.

    PS. Shameless plug, but this confusion would all be eliminated if there was only one movement phase, rather than both a combat and non-combat movement phase.


  • Does the CCP declaring war on Japan first, mean Japan can attack China without triggering any peacetime income?


  • If Partisans form into a Militia and either attack or capture a land zone while its controlling power is neutral. Is that a declaration of war by that controlling power?


  • Can Commanders board a ship or submarine during the combat movement phase and participate in naval combat on the same turn?


  • Are CCP Partisans generated outside Chinese Home Country (i.e. Korea, French Annam-Tonkin, and Cochin China), allowed to move?


  • This post is deleted!

  • @mike141500 said in The FAQ Thread:

    Does the CCP declaring war on Japan first, mean Japan can attack China without triggering any peacetime income?

    If you review the China CCP National Reference Sheet, you will see that in order for the CCP to declare war, they must have evolved to a Major Power. Are you referring to a situation where the CCP has evolved to a Major Power, or does that answer your question?


  • @hbg-gw-enthusiast Close. I’m referring more to “or if that nation has units in Chinese Home Country”, part of the CCP reference sheet. Japan has units in Chinese Home Country at the start of the game (i.e. Manchuria). Which means the CCP can declare war at any time.


  • @mike141500 I’m braindead! 8 ) Ok, now what specific peacetime income are you talking about? Are you wondering if CCP DoW’s Japan, does Japan attacking into land zones on a turn lower their oil trade income? It does. Are you wondering if France’s peacetime income increases +1 for this, it does not because the +1 is triggered here for Japan DoWing China, not the reverse.

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