Allies IC Question

@kevanwithana

If France is under Axis control and then at some later point the Axis capture Normandy if subsequently Normandy is liberated by an Allied Power (such as US or UK) then YES that Allied Power may build there in the future.

Actually it does not matter if Normandy is captured before or after France falls as Normandy would still be under Axis control at that point. France would have to fall before the Allies liberated Normandy otherwise Normandy would just go back to being French.

In addition, if at any time in the future France is liberated Normandy would revert to French control.

@kevanwithana said in Allies IC Question:

“You can’t place your new units on an industrial complex owned by a friendly power. Even if you liberate a territory with an industrial complex on it, you can’t use the complex; the original controller can use it on his or her next turn.”

Both of these statements are correct. Because in both cases the Allied power does not control the territory with the industrial complex in it. If France has fallen you are not liberating Normandy; you are capturing it for the Allied Power.

Europe 1940 2nd Edition Rulebook

Page 21:
Liberating a Territory
If you capture a territory that was originally controlled by another member of your side, you “liberate” the territory. You don’t take control of it; instead, the original controller regains the territory and the national production level is adjusted. Any industrial complex, air base, and/or naval base in that territory reverts to the original controller of the territory. A major industrial complex that was downgraded to a minor upon capture is not automatically upgraded upon liberation—it remains minor until the original owner upgrades it. If the original controller’s (the power whose territory you just liberated) capital is in enemy hands at the end of the turn in which you would otherwise have liberated the territory, you capture the territory instead. You adjust your national production level, and you can use any industrial complex, air base, and/or naval base there until the original controller’s capital is liberated. The capturing player can’t use these newly captured facilities until the player’s next turn.

If a capital is liberated, the industrial complex, air base and/or naval base in that capital territory revert ownership to the original controller of the capital. Other territories and industrial complexes, air bases, and naval bases that were originally controlled by the newly liberated capital’s controller but are currently in the hands of friendly powers also revert control immediately.

@kevanwithana said in Allies IC Question:

Nevermind. I found it! Thank you random person on the internet. You have saved America, France, and the rest of the allies. We are in your debt.

Did my good deed for the day apparently. :)

Denying the Normandy compound to the Allies by never taking Normandy is a solid German play. The paltry income gained from the territory does not make up for the cost of preventing the Allies from building there by needing to recapture it after it’s lost to the Allies, doesn’t make up for the cost of defense necessary to prevent it from falling into Allied hands, and doesn’t make up for the savings (approximately 10 IPCs per turn) the Allies gain from being able to build there.

Yes, that’s right – I would be willing to lose a plane in clearing Normany of forces to avoid capturing it. I’ve done this many, many times.

Marsh

@Marshmallow-of-War

Dave uses that factory to add ships to the Sea-Lion fleet/defenders. Its not an odds problem to take all 9$ on G1, so why deny yourself $10+ income over the first 5 turns. What defense? You never put front line garrisons on the Wall to defend them, they’re toast. Doesn’t make sense.

I don’t know who Dave is. My beliefs are as follows:

1. Early Sea Lion is always a dumb thing. If you disagree, fine – your preference. No argument you make will change my mind on this.
2. It’s better to not give the Allies a Normandy IC and a 10 IPC per turn subsidy than it is to receive the paltry 10 IPCs from holding Normandy for 5 turns.
3. “defense” does not mean troops sitting in the territory to that requires defense.

Have a great day!

Marsh

@Marshmallow-of-War

Well, since you wont listen, you’ll remain wrong. No argument will change my mind on this.

@taamvan That belief is your perogative. Have a great day!

@Marshmallow-of-War

Was having a great day long before I started teasing you.

@Marshmallow-of-War said in Allies IC Question:

and doesn’t make up for the savings (approximately 10 IPCs per turn) the Allies gain from being able to build there.

How are you figuring 10 IPC per Turn Allied savings? $2 for the territory plus $8 in savings from not having to build 6 transports? Placing 3 units per Turn is like landing 6 units every two Turns or 2 one Turn followed by 4 the following Turn. Landing 6 units every two Turns would require 6 transports. Are you including anything else?

@AndrewAAGamer Landing three units requires 1.5 transports. Transports cost 7 IPCs. 1.5 * 7 = 10.5, rounded down to 10.

That also doesn’t include the 2 IPCs that the Allies (typically the US) would collect for holding the territory.

And since the US can’t be allowed to produce at that IC, the cost of continuous recapture greatly detracts from the ability to reduce Moscow to rubble and push into the Middle East. That cost is very difficult to calculate, but it all arises from giving the Allies the ability to actually produce units in Normandy.

Marsh

Adding – my personal preference is for it to be up to me whether or not I attack Normandy and not to give the Allies the opportunity to force my hand. If spending that force elsewhere helps me more, I want the option. Heck, the option alone has value!

So, I much prefer to not take Normandy and to clear it with like 1 ground unit and a bunch of planes unless I can be certain that the US/UK cannot take it or cannot take it in such a way that I can’t recapture. For me, this typically happens after Moscow falls (or when it’s about to) and as I’m pushing into the Middle East.

YMMV depending on your playstyle.

Marsh

PS – the best part is that it really throws the Allies off if they’re used to building at that IC…disrupting the opponent’s plan is never a bad thing!

@Marshmallow-of-War said in Allies IC Question:

@AndrewAAGamer Landing three units requires 1.5 transports. Transports cost 7 IPCs. 1.5 * 7 = 10.5, rounded down to 10.

That also doesn’t include the 2 IPCs that the Allies (typically the US) would collect for holding the territory.

Thanks! Just wanted to make sure I was understanding your perspective.

@Marshmallow-of-War

You don’t know if the defender would hit or not, so you can’t reliably “clear” the territory with 1 ground unit–you’d still end up taking the territory in 1/3 of those attacks. That means that you can’t attack it, and if your opponent knows that, he can leave a potential landing space there for most of the game.

I think you’re on to something about the effects of having ever taken it in a long, late game, but its much simpler for Germany to sweep the entire thing on round 1 and stash the cash–winning the game before that drawn-out game occurs.

@taamvan True, but consider please:

1. I can play the odds that one hit will happen. 2/3 of the time that works.
2. I have yet to meet an Allied player who doesn’t somehow waste those French troops from Normandy by “taking” Holland. Once the troops are in Holland there is no risk of me accidentally taking Normandy.

But hey, to each his own!

Marsh