AARHE: Phase 2: Naval Combat


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    NAVAL UNIT CAPABILITIES

    Naval Combat
    Naval units that end movement or move into a sea zone containing enemy naval units must stop and engage in combat. At the end of any combat round either side can retreat without penalty. Naval units retreating must move back to their original sea zone. Defending naval units must move in any empty uncontrolled sea zone.

    Naval defense against Aerial Attacks
    All ships defend against planes using their secondary defense factor. All ships that only have a primary defense factor can use this instead.

    Naval Losses
    During naval surface combat for the purposes of allocating hits during combat rounds, all naval units are organized into the following groups:

                1)   All Battleships and Carriers
    2)   All Cruiser units
                3)   All Destroyer units
                4)   Support Ships (Submarines and Transports)

    All allocations of hits in naval combat must go against ships at an equal classification before other targets at a lower group can be selected as combat loses. Example: When a Cruiser attacks and causes a hit; its allocation from the defender has to be taken against all enemy ships in sections 2 first, before they can go against defending naval units in section 3, followed by section 4. When naval units are attacked in ports, planes can select targets from any category (the defender can still choose which ships within the selected category are targeted). Example: Attacking planes go after ships in the first category, and the hits can be assigned to either Battleships or Carriers present within the port. Note: Submarine hits cannot be taken against enemy submarines (since they cannot attack each other). If Submarines hit any target the loss is always chosen by the defender and don’t have to be allocated in the above manner. All combat with submarines is handled separately (see below).

    Submarine 1st Shot Surprise Attack
    In combat involving submarines, attacking submarines attack first every round. Defender naval losses are removed immediately; they do not get to shoot back. However, the presence of defending Destroyers negates attacking submarines’ 1st shot attack. Submarines can only be attacked one round per turn and can “submerge” to avoid further combat. Submarines do not get to choose which units are destroyed.

    Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
    Defending Destroyers negate attacking submarines’ 1st shot attack. In addition, air units may not attack lone Submarines unless a friendly Cruiser or Destroyer unit is present (Except UK and USA from turn 12).

    Submarine Combat
          This form of combat is always performed separately from normal naval combat. During the active players phase, submarines can make attacks on naval units and/or economic attacks on an enemy’s convoy box. When used against naval units they can be moved or simply activated from an enemy occupied sea zone and select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a two or less. This shot is targeted by the submarine and is preemptive so all hits are removed before the defender has a chance to roll for surviving naval units. If any ships remain then a search roll may then be performed. Exception: After the first combat round each Cruiser or Destroyer unit can “screen” out one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis so that the submarine hit goes against these units instead. Only when the “screening” ship(s) are sunk can the “protected” ship be targeted.
          Every defending Cruiser or Destroyer unit is then assigned two rolls to perform a search of each submarine that is attacking with success on any roll of two or less. If they fail to locate the submarine, then the sub can then end combat and remain in the sea zone, or it can conduct another round of combat. If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships have an automatic search success (no roll is needed). They can all defend against the submarine(s) hitting at a two or less. This is known as Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW). No other types of ships can perform ASW rolls.
          Land or Carrier based planes cannot alone be involved in attacking submarines except USA and UK starting on turn 12.Up until that time they can only be made available to search for them and also receive two search rolls per plane. Also any qualifying land-based planes can participate starting on round two of naval combat (see coastal defense).
         Each roll is now done separately until the submarine is sighted. All additional rolls left for these ships can then go against attacking the submarines again hitting on a two or less. On turn 13 the USA and UK player has sufficient sonar capability, which modifies a hit to any roll of three or less. If the submarine is not sighted then another round of combat occurs until either all ships are sunk or either side withdraws from further combat (subs can remain in the sea zone while either side can also retreat to another sea zones).
          When the active player moves naval units into a sea zone and an enemy submarine decides not to attack, then those units can continue to move into other zones. No combat occurs in this case. In all other circumstances all movement must stop if you move into a zone containing enemy naval surface units.
       When the active player decides he wants to attack enemy submarines with ASW warfare, each Cruiser or Destroyer can each participate in a similar manner to above. If these units fail to find the submarine, it simply remains in the sea zone.
         
    Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support
    During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a primary combat value of two or higher have one preemptive “shore bombardment” attack. In order to support landings you must land four Land units to receive one shore bombardment shot. Defenders losses do not fire back. In addition, each warship (whether supporting or not) improves one attacking infantry unit with an attack die roll modifier of +1 on the first round only. So if you only land 3 Infantry, you still get each of them with a +1 modifier provided you have at least three warships with an attack value of two. Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not shore bombard or provide infantry support for amphibious assaults.

    Preemptive Artillery fire
    Following shore bombardment attacks, any defending artillery units present then receive one round of preemptive fire upon invading enemy units. Hits are taken first (chosen by the attacker) and removed from play. Land combat then follows in the normal manner starting with section #2.

    First Round land combat restrictions
    The attacker’s first land combat phase is restricted to Infantry only (including Airborne).

    So to summarize invasions:
    4) Shore bombardment (preemptive).
    5) Defender artillery fire support (preemptive).
    6) Tactical Air Command missions against defending air units/ land units (preemptive if only land units are defending).
    7) Attacking Infantry can attack on round one; all other land units can attack on round two or latter.
    😎 Defender rolls for all land units (except Artillery which fired).
    9) Continue combat rounds until one side is destroyed or retreats from battle.

    Anti-Air Artillery Defense
    Industrial Complexes and Victory Cities have a fixed preemptive defense against air attacks as follows: First roll a D6 and if the result is a 2-3, then that plane has to return to its original base of departure and take no further part in combat. If you roll a one then continue to the next section. If on the second roll you obtain a one result then that plane is destroyed. The total number of actions in this manner against air units during any turn cannot exceed a total of three attacks. In no other respects can ground “units” target air units.

    Naval Evacuations
    Attacking ground units in amphibious assaults may evacuate and retreat to their transports after any combat round. However, each armor and artillery unit must first be converted to a regular infantry unit. Defending ground units have the option of retreating onto friendly transports in adjacent sea zones during regular ground combat. In both cases, the evacuating transports may not move and Ground units in excess of transport capacity may not retreat.



  • All allocations of hits in naval combat must go against ships at an equal classification before other targets at a lower group can be selected as combat loses.

    I don’t understand why it would be like that.

    And what happens when your 1 DD attacks 1 BB, 1 DD and 1 TR?
    Your DD must first kill the enemy DD first? and then the TR? finally the BB?

    (Except UK and USA from turn 12)

    I prefer this moved to Technology. A little more simulation and a little less historic replay.

    Submarines do not get to choose which units are destroyed.

    select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a two or less

    So which one is it? And I duno why submarines don’t get to choose target even when enemy has no DD.

    If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships have an automatic search success (no roll is needed)

    Yep this isn’t “new”. But I never understood why they automatically detect the submarine.

    When the active player moves naval units into a sea zone and an enemy submarine decides not to attack, then those units can continue to move into other zones.

    Do the active player have to declare all intentions before the sumarine decide? This particular aspect of time is not currently modelled in the game.

    Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support

    I don’t see how warships support infantry.

    In order to support landings you must land four Land units to receive one shore bombardment shot.

    I think the phase 1 rule is more realistic. Nothing prevents DDs and BBs from firing. It is the amount of damage that should be capped as the defender sending a force near the coast depending on the attacking land force.

    Attacking Infantry can attack on round one; all other land units can attack on round two or latter.

    Gotta formalise the particular effect that if all attack INF are destroyed on round one ARM and ART do not offload.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    All allocations of hits in naval combat must go against ships at an equal classification before other targets at a lower group can be selected as combat loses.

    I don’t understand why it would be like that.

    And what happens when your 1 DD attacks 1 BB, 1 DD and 1 TR?
    Your DD must first kill the enemy DD first? and then the TR? finally the BB?

    ++++Yes thats the idea. But what im going after is to:

    1. stop the fodder causaulty practice ( in war each ship targets the ship in its class. A destroyer cannot do any damage to the armor plating of a battleship so its really going after its own kind. A transport is the last choice for defender combat loss allocation, because
    2. warships historically never fought against trannies… they fight combatants first because their mission is to destroy the enemy. Transports can be dealt with after like screaming babies.If your employing hit and run tactics like submarines do , then you use them instead.
    3. Warships of incresingly larger caliber guns have longer ranges to fire their salvos, so the reasoning is smaller ships would be cut to ribbons before they came into range to fire their own guns… which again could not do too much against larger ships.
    4. This promotes the purchase and upkeep of naval loses and now fodder concept is out the window. A nation stands and falls by its naval arsenal and not how many pieces of merchant ships can defend the “battleships”. thats a bogus concept if i ever saw one.

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    (Except UK and USA from turn 12)
    I prefer this moved to Technology. A little more simulation and a little less historic replay.

    ++++ yes right i tried to leave out the “turn 12” thing and change to turn ?? because we have not installed a time frame for turns.

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    Submarines do not get to choose which units are destroyed.
    +++++ Yes i see a problem here as well… perhaps this should be changed. I just dont want to make entire navies worthless to armies of subs. because as you know if we allowed such a thing all BB and CV would get sunk.

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    select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a two or less
    So which one is it? And I duno why submarines don’t get to choose target even when enemy has no DD.

    +++++++++Each surface ship that can perform ASW gets two rolls ( only CA and DD and planes can do this) so if you have like 2 dd and 2 CA you get 8 rolls… looking for a 2 to spot and 2 to hit… rolls are: 2,4,6,5,1,4,3,and 2  the first is the spotter roll and the last 2 are hits all others are misses. The idea of a destroyer and Cruiser is to provide escort duty. They are travelling all around the carrier to protect it. Look at the standard fleet movement actions in ww2. they were formed in special formations to protect the most value ships. So to benifit from the role of escort ships we allow them to “sheild” another ship at a 1/1 basis and this is a decent way to abstract and model the idea that their purpose is to protect other ships that cannot perform ASW duty. the BB and CV are not really equipped to hunt for subs because they are too big and slow.

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    If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships have an automatic search success (no roll is needed)
    Yep this isn’t “new”. But I never understood why they automatically detect the submarine.

    ++++++ because once the submarine has made its strike… its much easier to locate the position of the sub. Thats one of the basic techniques of ASW warfare. a Sub makes sounds when it releases a torpedo and we use that sound to find out where it is and launch depth charges.

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    When the active player moves naval units into a sea zone and an enemy submarine decides not to attack, then those units can continue to move into other zones.
    Do the active player have to declare all intentions before the sumarine decide? This particular aspect of time is not currently modelled in the game.

    +++++What happens is the active player just moves his units thru the zones occupied by the subs. The passive player can declare at the time when hes moving that he will engage the surface ships. Or the active player can move and attempt to attack the subs.

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    Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support
    I don’t see how warships support infantry.

    +++++++ They destroy built up defenses of the enemy allowing the advancing infantry more time and a better chance to engage the enemy before they get picked off just getting out of the landing craft. Its like what artillery does on the battlefield. They supress the enemy and destroy built up positions.

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    In order to support landings you must land four Land units to receive one shore bombardment shot.
    I think the phase 1 rule is more realistic. Nothing prevents DDs and BBs from firing. It is the amount of damage that should be capped as the defender sending a force near the coast depending on the attacking land force.

    ++++++Its quite easy every 4 infantry landed = one free preemtive shot from a ship of your choice. Plus each warship travelling with the landed infantry boost one infantry +1 for the first round of combat at a 1/1 basis. ( like artillery). This does make the invasions more of a substantial effort, and elininating the problem of landing 2 men and getting 4 bb shots every turn against france.
    If you add these rules with the other rules you will agree that invasions are better modeled. I have play tested these and they work great!

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    Attacking Infantry can attack on round one; all other land units can attack on round two or latter.
    Gotta formalise the particular effect that if all attack INF are destroyed on round one ARM and ART do not offload.

    ++++++ What happens is if somebody actually brought too few infantry into the battle ( assuming its a desperate gamble) then on the second round all these armor units are going into the fight for at least one round. If they decide its a waste… then you convert each armor unit into an infantry and reembark on the transports… that way you can get something back.I guess you have to be committed to two rounds of invasions before you can retreat. does that fix it?



  • A transport is the last choice for defender combat loss allocation

    We need to put transports outside of the classes all together.

    smaller ships would be cut to ribbons before they came into range to fire their own guns… which again could not do too much against larger ships

    this requires proper modelling
    we make BB firing in opening fire as mentioned earlier on
    but gotta make BB and CV takes more hits from smaller ships than larger ships

    because we have not installed a time frame for turns.

    no this is not about time frame
    I am saying the ASW technology should be under technology
    I mean if Germany or Japan don’t buid must submarines wouldn’t US/UK redirect their research resource?

    I just dont want to make entire navies worthless to armies of subs. because as you know if we allowed such a thing all BB and CV would get sunk.

    before sonor technology, I imagine the DD and CA can’t protect BB and CV much at all

    because once the submarine has made its strike… its much easier to locate the position of the sub

    we need to fine tune this model
    make it detection on a submarine that just fired probable, and unprobable on a submarine that did not fire very recently

    some of your submarines can choose not to fire so they reduce the chance of being detected
    a submarine fleet can then do a bit of hide and seek, which is pretty much the nature of submarines I think?

    They destroy built up defenses of the enemy allowing the advancing infantry more time and a better chance to engage the enemy before they get picked off just getting out of the landing craft.

    I am thinking maybe they should do one not both (shore bombardment and infantry support)

    Its quite easy every 4 infantry landed = one free preemtive shot from a ship of your choice.

    yes its easy I am just saying realistic
    nothing stops BB and DD from shoots at the shore, its just how many targets for them to shoot at

    elininating the problem of landing 2 men and getting 4 bb shots every turn against france.

    this isn’t a problem, defender won’t be sending all forces to the coast just because of 2 attacking INF, so damage is capped
    (2 INF and 4 BB) can only cause the same amount of damage due to shore bombardment as (2 INF and 2 BB), but the first case probability of hits are higher

    What happens is if somebody actually brought too few infantry into the battle ( assuming its a desperate gamble) then on the second round all these armor units are going into the fight for at least one round. If they decide its a waste… then you convert each armor unit into an infantry and reembark on the transports

    no this isn’t it, the ARMs shouldn’t even get to land since they’ve failed to secure the beach

    its a bit funny to convert ARM into INF, if we have to do it maybe 2 ARM into 1 INF to model the manpower properly



  • and with class rule, how does FTR and BMR fit in?

    I reckon the planes should be able to choose target
    the player should be able to choose between hit and run on expensive ships or kill all weak units and have the enemy BB as sitting duck

    but this is more complicated then that

    we have a clear dogfighting/bombing model in land combat
    we need something for naval combat
    this is gonna be difficult


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    and with class rule, how does FTR and BMR fit in?

    +++++ in air combat if a player has any fighters they are “sheilding” bombers … as defender since bombers only defend at 1 I don’t think anybody will risk them if things go bad especially while defending planes are at 1-3. So no class rule on planes.

    I reckon the planes should be able to choose target
    the player should be able to choose between hit and run on expensive ships or kill all weak units and have the enemy BB as sitting duck
    ++++++Yes im still working on a solution for this. I think planes should allow for targeted attacks, but some ideas for escort “screening” should help out. MY solution is to allow all warships to shoot first each round against planes and any survivors get to take shots on who they want to kill.

    but this is more complicated then that

    we have a clear dogfighting/bombing model in land combat
    we need something for naval combat
    this is gonna be difficult

    If you try these ideas out youll see that its quite easy to “see” how this system works.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    A transport is the last choice for defender combat loss allocation
    We need to put transports outside of the classes all together.

    +++++yes your correct. they are not combat ships.

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    smaller ships would be cut to ribbons before they came into range to fire their own guns… which again could not do too much against larger ships
    this requires proper modelling
    we make BB firing in opening fire as mentioned earlier on
    but gotta make BB and CV takes more hits from smaller ships than larger ships

    ++++ yes totally agree

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    because we have not installed a time frame for turns.
    no this is not about time frame
    I am saying the ASW technology should be under technology
    I mean if Germany or Japan don’t buid must submarines wouldn’t US/UK redirect their research resource?

    ++++++++Not clear im not even sure the “tech” should be something that must be researched for a price. I feel it should just happen because of all the research done before the war. It was only a matter of time. The allies could choose to basically stop research in some areas, but its not likely.

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    I just dont want to make entire navies worthless to armies of subs. because as you know if we allowed such a thing all BB and CV would get sunk.
    before sonor technology, I imagine the DD and CA can’t protect BB and CV much at all

    ++++++++ they had acquired increasingly sophisticated sonar technology. They had some of it from the start of the war.

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    because once the submarine has made its strike… its much easier to locate the position of the sub
    we need to fine tune this model
    make it detection on a submarine that just fired probable, and improbable on a submarine that did not fire very recently

    some of your submarines can choose not to fire so they reduce the chance of being detected
    a submarine fleet can then do a bit of hide and seek, which is pretty much the nature of submarines I think?

    +++++ yes but in a game their has to be some ability to fight back. They ( the subs) show us their first intentions, while it allows us to decide and gain information of where they are and some advantage, The subs had this advantage with the first strike capability.

    OH BTW 2 or more subs together get a +1 combat modifier… forgot to add this idea ( wolf pack concept)

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    They destroy built up defenses of the enemy allowing the advancing infantry more time and a better chance to engage the enemy before they get picked off just getting out of the landing craft.
    I am thinking maybe they should do one not both (shore bombardment and infantry support)

    +++++++++++++Yes but remember 4 infantry gets one shot… that not much of a deal. The +1 thing also makes invasions something that you will conduct with many forces… and not Dieppe style actions. If you got something on this please post your ideas.

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    Its quite easy every 4 infantry landed = one free preemptive shot from a ship of your choice.
    yes its easy I am just saying realistic
    nothing stops BB and DD from shoots at the shore, its just how many targets for them to shoot at

    +++++  The idea is to end the concept of 40 BB shots and landing 2 infantry… thats it.  i dont think they will completely destroy the enemy by these free shots unless the enemy is weak. Also note that because of this more infantry will be allocated to defense because they are not getting chumped each round at france.

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    eliminating the problem of landing 2 men and getting 4 bb shots every turn against France.

    this isn’t a problem, defender won’t be sending all forces to the coast just because of 2 attacking INF, so damage is capped
    (2 INF and 4 BB) can only cause the same amount of damage due to shore bombardment as (2 INF and 2 BB), but the first case probability of hits are higher

    ++++++ if you land only 2 infantry and have 4 BB you get nothing but +1 for both infantry on the first round only. Again those “cheap” invasions are out the door, because of the new rules about armor on round 2 and defending artillery fire. Play test it and youll see.

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    What happens is if somebody actually brought too few infantry into the battle ( assuming its a desperate gamble) then on the second round all these armor units are going into the fight for at least one round. If they decide its a waste… then you convert each armor unit into an infantry and reembark on the transports
    no this isn’t it, the ARMs shouldn’t even get to land since they’ve failed to secure the beach

    its a bit funny to convert ARM into INF, if we have to do it maybe 2 ARM into 1 INF to model the manpower properly

    +++++++ Yes right… its just some return on investment ala " dunkirk" that im after. Armor division also have an infantry component usually a BN of mech infantry… Infantry divisions also have some tanks. The boundries between units isnt totally one sided.



  • If you try these ideas out youll see that its quite easy to “see” how this system works.

    I don’t see how it works yet
    like hows the naval dogfighting modelled?
    fighters shouldn’t be able to freely choose a target to bomb if enemy fighters are around?

    Not clear im not even sure the “tech” should be something that must be researched for a price.

    first reduce the chance factor (still good to have some of it)
    secondly give free research rolls
    this models research happening eventually, but the power can speeds thing up if wanted to
    also models certain resources that can’t be deverted elsewhere anyway…

    we shall come back to this in the technology thread

    they had acquired increasingly sophisticated sonar technology. They had some of it from the start of the war.

    so for the start of the war the ability of DD to protect BB against “first strike” SS hits should be fairly weak, latter shots should be easy to screen against

    OH BTW 2 or more subs together get a +1 combat modifier… forgot to add this idea ( wolf pack concept)

    oooh only 2 SS to get the wolf pack? maybe too strong?

    yes but in a game their has to be some ability to fight back.

    no? just like how INF can’t kill FTR? although on a different serverity

    yeah sure, I am just saying the ability is big fight back against a submarine that just fired, and small against a submarine that hasn’t been firing, with my firing and non-firing thingo rule
    I mean surface ships keep firing
    but submarines have hiding to do, submerging and remerging now and then

    1 shore bombardment shot per X attacking INF
    vs.
    1 possible shore bombardment casualty per X attack INF

    did you notice your argument is based on your rule itself?  😛

    on the one hand you want bombardment shots per X attacking INF, on the other hand you want you let ships support INF 1-to-1
    whats are you modelling?

    maybe my rule works under your logic too
    it just needs to be tuned
    say 1 possible shore bombardment casualty per 2 or 4 attacking INF?
    (40BB and 2INF –attack–> 10 INF, all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting corpse though  :lol: because the defender won’t send 10INF to the coast to fight 2 INF)

    I don’t really like that 1-to-1 bonus
    I think I see you are modelling
    preemptive shore shots - shots opening the battle
    1-to-1 bonus - the other are shots through the battle

    but once your troops move inland your warships can’t really help can they? that why I don’t like that 1-to-1 bonus!


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Quote
    If you try these ideas out youll see that its quite easy to “see” how this system works.
    I don’t see how it works yet
    like hows the naval dogfighting modelled?
    fighters shouldn’t be able to freely choose a target to bomb if enemy fighters are around?

    ++++ when their is combat actions all air to air combat is performed seperately.
    As the attacking forces you send over bombers and fighters to engage defending land forces, however your opponent decides to perform DAS mission and intercept you from a territory adjacent from the originally attacked territory. The planes combat rolls are now handled differently because now the defender has fighters in his defense. As the attacker your escorting fighters are also protecting your bombers and thats why the defender is not allowed to decide where any causaulties are allocated to. Is this clear?

    Quote
    Not clear im not even sure the “tech” should be something that must be researched for a price.
    first reduce the chance factor (still good to have some of it)
    secondly give free research rolls
    this models research happening eventually, but the power can speeds thing up if wanted to
    also models certain resources that can’t be deverted elsewhere anyway…

    we shall come back to this in the technology thread

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    they had acquired increasingly sophisticated sonar technology. They had some of it from the start of the war.
    so for the start of the war the ability of DD to protect BB against “first strike” SS hits should be fairly weak, latter shots should be easy to screen against

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    OH BTW 2 or more subs together get a +1 combat modifier… forgot to add this idea ( wolf pack concept)
    oooh only 2 SS to get the wolf pack? maybe too strong?

    again this is an outline… 3 may work better but not in playtesting

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    yes but in a game their has to be some ability to fight back.
    no? just like how INF can’t kill FTR? although on a different serverity

    yeah sure, I am just saying the ability is big fight back against a submarine that just fired, and small against a submarine that hasn’t been firing, with my firing and non-firing thingo rule
    I mean surface ships keep firing
    but submarines have hiding to do, submerging and remerging now and then

    +++++ it goes like this: the sub can decide to take action on surface ships, when they do this they are also giving away their position. This is not secret ninja warfare… some accountability has to be accorded to the sub that launched a strike. However, once it strikes it still gets to allocate hits before the defender has a chance to counter with a round of ASW. How is this not fair?

    1 shore bombardment shot per X attacking INF
    vs.
    1 possible shore bombardment casualty per X attack INF

    +++++ this is not the proper rule:

    1 shore bombardment shot per 4 attacking INF
    vs.
    1 possible shore bombardment casualty per 4 attack INF

    on the one hand you want bombardment shots per X attacking INF, on the other hand you want you let ships support INF 1-to-1
    whats are you modelling?

    +++++ 1) the shore bomberdment of the free shot is a modification of OOB rules but preventing the types of previous invasions in AAR. 2) The supporting shots are continuing broadsides that model the constant shelling of defending positions WHILE INFANTRY HAS ALLREADY LANDED… JUST LIKE WE HAVE WITH ARTILLERY IN OOB. thats why its 1/1 basis because like artillery they are helping out the infantry. The free shot for every 4 infantry landed represents the surprise factor and is a continuity from the previous larry harris idea… only modified so as not to allow 4 bb getting 4 shots and landing 1-2 infantry.

    maybe my rule works under your logic too
    it just needs to be tuned
    say 1 possible shore bombardment casualty per 2 or 4 attacking INF?
    (40BB and 2INF --attack–> 10 INF, all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting corpse though  because the defender won’t send 10INF to the coast to fight 2 INF)

    40 bb get nothing as free shots with only 2 infantry, they only boost the infantry +1 for THE FIRST ROUND OF COMBAT ONLY

    WHY ONLY FIRST ROUND?  because they are really far away unlike artillery which is closer and can spot the enemy better than some BB far out in the ocean.

    I don’t really like that 1-to-1 bonus
    I think I see you are modelling
    preemptive shore shots - shots opening the battle
    1-to-1 bonus - the other are shots through the battle

    ++++ yes your SEEING the idea its not unlike artillery support and its consistent idea from OOB… only advanced to reflect historical based solution which is what were after.

    but once your troops move inland your warships can’t really help can they? that why I don’t like that 1-to-1 bonus!

    ++++Its only the first round… thats why.



  • Is this clear?

    yes its clear now
    I was confused before because I didn’t know you meant the dogfighting procedure from land combat applies to naval combat too

    the sub can decide to take action on surface ships

    yeah, and I am saying this decision happens in every cycle of combat
    this way you don’t get the situation that once a submarine fired it is simply detected or easily detected for the rest of the combat

    again this is an outline… 3 may work better but not in playtesting

    actually it won’t be realistic
    the bonus should be based on relatively numbers like “more submarines than enemy destroyer+cruiser”

    The free shot for every 4 infantry landed represents the surprise factor

    my rule still represents the surprise factory
    more BBs then more chance of doing up to the maximum damage

    (40BB and 2INF –attack–> 10 INF, all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting corpse though  because the defender won’t send 10INF to the coast to fight 2 INF)

    ++++40 bb get nothing as free shots with only 2 infantry,

    sorry my bad, bad example…need 4 INF

    10 BB and 4 INF --attack–> 10 INF
    my rule: all the BBs can fire if they want, they’ll only be hitting 1 INF max, higher chance if more BBs fire…better model I think
    your rule: only 1 BB gets to fire, it might hit 1 INF, the other BBs only enjoy the fireworks…

    friendly reminder, you didn’t comment on sonor tech suggestion
    before sonor tech: weak sonor, DD/CA has 33% chance of protecting a ship
    after sonor: strong sonor, DD/CA 100% chance of protecting a ship


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes the sonar rule should change the value by one

    from 2 to 3…

    I just spend all day yesterday playtesting with 2 groups of people all these rules… it will take alot of time to recount our experience but i will do so as i have time… right now i have to finish latter.



  • 1. so what did they feel about the automatic detect of submarines that fired before?  😄

    2. was wolf pack too powerful? did they sugguest it should be based on relative size of submarine to enemy ships?

    3. sure they found sending 1 BB the same effect (in bombardment) as 4 BBs with an amphibious invasion of 4 INF a little odd?
    or sending 4 BBs the same effect (in both bomardment and first cycle bonus) as 16 BBs  odd? 😛


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    1. so what did they feel about the automatic detect of submarines that fired before?

    ++++OK we scrapped that rule… ships that qualify for ASW have to keep rolling for detection… no more automatics… problem was easily fixed… or subs are gonners.

    2. was wolf pack too powerful? did they sugguest it should be based on relative size of submarine to enemy ships?

    ++++No it worked very well with +1 in groups it gave germany a chance, plus we gave germans 6 dollar u boats and they were able to do damage against uk’s economy. it was another path (as opposed to building a fleet) to basically stop the allied franch invasion.

    3. sure they found sending 1 BB the same effect (in bombardment) as 4 BBs with an amphibious invasion of 4 INF a little odd?
    or sending 4 BBs the same effect (in both bomardment and first cycle bonus) as 16 BBs  odd?

    +++++HUH?  this is not the correct interpretation of the rule:  1 bb shot for 4 inf on the first round (preemtive) plus each ship (BB, CA, DD moving along with the invasion boosts one infantry +1 for the first round at a 1/1 basis. These were actually less effective than in OOB rules which is what were going after.

    what didnt look right was the idea that we took all our planes and got a major kill zone against unsupported defending infantry ( all preemtive and he didnt have any planes in range for DAS missions) That was done in norway. we killed many infantry this way.



  • OK we scrapped that rule… ships that qualify for ASW have to keep rolling for detection… no more automatics… problem was easily fixed… or subs are gonners.

    so now how does OOB submarine’s ability to submerge and end combat for itself…fit into all this?
    I reckon it shouldn’t be removed from combat for good…it should be allowed to surface again and fight later…while submerged (thus not shooting) it should be very difficult to detect it…maybe ASW search rolls detecting on 1 for those particular submarines.

    No it worked very well with +1 in groups it gave germany a chance, plus we gave germans 6 dollar u boats and they were able to do damage against uk’s economy. it was another path (as opposed to building a fleet) to basically stop the allied franch invasion.

    Yeah. But I saying maybe the bonus should also require number of SS to be significant with respect to number of enemy ships.

    HUH?  this is not the correct interpretation of the rule

    I read agian. No I don’t think its incorrect interpretation.
    Anyway I am just again pushing you to change from number of “preemptive shots” to “preemptive damage”, per 4 attacking INF.
    Its pretty much the same, maybe a tiny bit stronger.
    I just don’t like the idea of stopping the other BBs from firing. My rule lets additional BBs should increase your chance of hitting, while not increasing the max. damage capable.

    what didnt look right was the idea that we took all our planes and got a major kill zone against unsupported defending infantry ( all preemtive and he didnt have any planes in range for DAS missions) That was done in norway. we killed many infantry this way.

    I don’t see whats wrong with that.
    Air units easily killing unprotected land units. Thats alright.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OK we scrapped that rule… ships that qualify for ASW have to keep rolling for detection… no more automatics… problem was easily fixed… or subs are gonners.
    so now how does OOB submarine’s ability to submerge and end combat for itself…fit into all this?
    I reckon it shouldn’t be removed from combat for good…it should be allowed to surface again and fight later…while submerged (thus not shooting) it should be very difficult to detect it…maybe ASW search rolls detecting on 1 for those particular submarines.

    ++++++After any round subs can submerge or retreat. this ends combat. If this was done after round one, then naval units can continue movement. that way no sub stall problems unless you want to waste 2-3 subs as blocking units… which can be expensive. ASW is at 2 and latter it moves to 3 (after tech moves up). This could work whether your going after subs or they are going after you. If we modify this to a one… in the case if your trying to kill subs… i feel subs will totally cripple the UK economy with attacks on its income and never get defeated… perhaps at the start of the war it can be a one, then two and finally 3 to simulate the two “happy times” of the german Kreigmarine.

    Quote
    No it worked very well with +1 in groups it gave germany a chance, plus we gave germans 6 dollar u boats and they were able to do damage against uk’s economy. it was another path (as opposed to building a fleet) to basically stop the allied franch invasion.
    Yeah. But I saying maybe the bonus should also require number of SS to be significant with respect to number of enemy ships.

    +++++++++++ each sub is about 30 subs so 60 subs is quite a wolfpack…

    Quote
    HUH?  this is not the correct interpretation of the rule
    I read agian. No I don’t think its incorrect interpretation.
    Anyway I am just again pushing you to change from number of “preemptive shots” to “preemptive damage”, per 4 attacking INF.
    Its pretty much the same, maybe a tiny bit stronger.
    I just don’t like the idea of stopping the other BBs from firing. My rule lets additional BBs should increase your chance of hitting, while not increasing the max. damage capable.

    +++++  they are not stopped from firing… instead they boost infantry at 1/1 basis +1 first round… this is also shorebombardment, only less effective.

    Quote
    what didnt look right was the idea that we took all our planes and got a major kill zone against unsupported defending infantry ( all preemtive and he didnt have any planes in range for DAS missions) That was done in norway. we killed many infantry this way.
    I don’t see whats wrong with that.
    Air units easily killing unprotected land units. Thats alright.

    +++++ yes true but it didnt feel too good to the other player. i guess its correct… BTW he did have alot of air ( 10 planes)



  • @Imperious:

    each sub is about 30 subs so 60 subs is quite a wolfpack…

    This comes to what is wolf pack about anyway?
    In what way did the submarines fight more effectively?
    I was thinking if the submarine number is insignficant compared to the enemy fleet it wouldn’t make a difference.
    Say 10 subs or 20 subs attack 100 destroyers?

    they are not stopped from firing… instead they boost infantry at 1/1 basis +1 first round… this is also shorebombardment, only less effective.

    Yeah I know. But they are stopped from firing for shore bombardment.
    I don’t understand why additional BBs don’t help during bombardment.
    With my rule we have good chance (66.7%) of killing one defending land unit when sending 4 attacking INF…but 88.9% for one more BB, or 96.3% if you bring yet one more, and 98.8% if you bring 4 BBs in total.

    I guess its not a big thing but anyway.

    yes true but it didnt feel too good to the other player. i guess its correct… BTW he did have alot of air ( 10 planes)

    Its fine. In fact he could have done that (the killing part by the planes) with a purely air attack.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    each sub is about 30 subs so 60 subs is quite a wolfpack…
    This comes to what is wolf pack about anyway?
    In what way did the submarines fight more effectively?
    I was thinking if the submarine number is insignficant compared to the enemy fleet it wouldn’t make a difference.
    Say 10 subs or 20 subs attack 100 destroyers?

    Yes you have a point… the wolfpack idea is only something to help germany conduct and compete with UK since they have 6 IPC subs and now another goody with +1 with 2 + subs modifier. So what do you propose? a wolfpack is a good idea to simulate the tactics of submarine warfare w/o getting too tactical.

    Quote
    they are not stopped from firing… instead they boost infantry at 1/1 basis +1 first round… this is also shorebombardment, only less effective.
    Yeah I know. But they are stopped from firing for shore bombardment.
    I don’t understand why additional BBs don’t help during bombardment.
    With my rule we have good chance (66.7%) of killing one defending land unit when sending 4 attacking INF…but 88.9% for one more BB, or 96.3% if you bring yet one more, and 98.8% if you bring 4 BBs in total.

    +++OK what exactly is this rule? post it please.

    I guess its not a big thing but anyway.

    Quote
    yes true but it didnt feel too good to the other player. i guess its correct… BTW he did have alot of air ( 10 planes)
    Its fine. In fact he could have done that (the killing part by the planes) with a purely air attack.



  • @Imperious:

    So what do you propose? a wolfpack is a good idea to simulate the tactics of submarine warfare w/o getting too tactical.

    I proposed earlier it could be relative to number of friendly SS to enemy DD+CA.
    How about 2 more SS than DD+CA ?
    2 SS attack 1 CV –—> wolfpack bonus
    2 SS attack 1 CV + 1 DD -----> no bonus
    3 SS attack 1 CV + 1 DD -----> wolfpack bonus

    OK what exactly is this rule? post it please.

    Unchanged from what I also proposed this earlier.
    All BBs perform shore bombardment. But limited to 1 casualty every 4 attacking INF.
    All BBs support infantry with +1 bonus, on 1-to-1 basis.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OK both of these look fine… well wait for dukes take on this. for now it stands as it is.



  • Was playtesting today

    The screening or protecting ability of DD seemed weird.
    The BB and CV can absorb two hits.
    So you have to like not get your DDs to protect your BB sand CVs in 1st cycle it, and then protect them in the second.

    The ASW seems weak.
    Searching on 2 or less, and then hitting on 2 or less…

    When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.

    Is that the intentional?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The screening or protecting ability of DD seemed weird.
    The BB and CV can absorb two hits.
    So you have to like not get your DDs to protect your BB sand CVs in 1st cycle it, and then protect them in the second.

    +++++ not a good idea. after one combat round you may retreat so when you pair off your ships you may want to “look” at the bigger picture of only sustaining one rounds worth of hits by subs. also i dont know how many subs were attacking. but say they had 3 subs. Id protect the CV with one ship and the BB with the other ship. Say the subs are placed as follows: all three on the CV… hoping to hit three times! they only get 2 hits ( not preemtive due to DD being around) . the destroyer is hit and the CV takes one hit. Now the 2 DD roll for search… they locate the subs on the last roll. Now all three ( 2 DD and BB) each get one roll and score 1 hit. The DD is removed from play and one sub is gone. At this point the subs submerge and play is over in this case.

    The ASW seems weak.
    Searching on 2 or less, and then hitting on 2 or less…

    +++++ it reflects a balance of what the subs themselves add to the game. If ships can kill at 3+ or only 1, then subs will have little effect , or ships will have little effect against subs.

    When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.

    ++++ this is not correct interpretation… The DD STOPS the preemtive attack of subs… the dd still gets to roll for search and if succesful again rolls for attacks.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Submarine Combat
          This form of combat is always performed separately from normal naval combat. During the active players phase, submarines can make attacks on naval units and/or economic attacks on an enemy’s convoy box. When used against naval units they can be moved or simply activated from an enemy occupied sea zone and select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a two or less. This shot is targeted by the submarine and is preemptive so all hits are removed before the defender has a chance to roll for surviving naval units. Exceptions: the preemptive targeted submarine shot is negated by the presence of at least one Cruiser or Destroyer unit. Secondly, each Cruiser or Destroyer unit can “screen out” one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis so that the targeted submarine hit goes against these or other unscreened units instead. Only when the “screening” ship(s) are sunk can the “protected” ship be targeted. Otherwise if any ships remain then a search roll may then be performed. Hits on ships that are performing this duty cannot assign their hits to other units in order to make loses “cheaper”.

    Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)
    The presence of defending Cruisers and/or Destroyers negates attacking submarines’ 1st shot preemptive attack. They are also possessing special capabilities of attacking submarines with ASW warfare and tactics.
          First each defending Cruiser or Destroyer unit is then assigned one roll to perform a search of enemy submarine that are attacking with success on any roll of two or less. If they fail to locate the submarine(s), then the sub can then end combat and remain in the sea zone, or it can conduct another round of combat. If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships receive a new search roll each round until they successfully locate the submarine. Once submarines have been located Cruisers, Destroyers and now Battleships can all defend with a new roll of two or less against the submarine(s). This is known as Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW). No other types of ships can perform ASW rolls. Note: the ASW search roll is always separate from the roll that represents the ability to attack submarines in ASW.

    After specific turns advancements in naval radar and sonar technology USA and UK can modify the ability for ASW as follows:

    1. When Aerial ASW technology #2  is achieved then  USA and UK Land or Carrier based planes can be involved in attacking submarines.
    2. When naval sonar technology is achieved the USA and UK player can modify a successful location roll and or hit to any roll of three or less.
    3. When you have Aerial tech #1 Planes from USA and UK can begin to participate in Naval search for submarines.

    Each roll is now done separately until the submarine is sighted. Once the submarines are sighted each Cruiser, Destroyer and now Battleships can then each receive one new roll against attacking the submarines hitting on a two or less. If the submarine is not sighted then another round of combat occurs until either all ships are sunk or either side withdraws from further combat (subs can remain in the sea zone (submerge) while either side can also retreat to another sea zones).

    Movement thru zones occupied by enemy submarines:
          When the active player moves naval units into a sea zone and an enemy submarine decides not to attack, then those units can continue to move into other zones. No combat occurs in this case. If the enemy submarine is placed “on station” it can attempt to engage those surface ships in combat. In this case movement must stop and those ships will now be engaged by the passive player’s submarine(s). In this case your ships can continue to move into other sea zones (up to their full movement allowance) providing naval combat does not take more than one round.
      When as the active player you decide you want to attack enemy submarines with ASW warfare, each Cruiser or Destroyer can each participate in a similar manner to above under ASW rules. If these units fail to find the submarine, the enemy submarine and your ships simply remain in the sea zone till the following turn.

    Summary of Submarine Combat:

    1. Your submarines move into positions occupied by enemy surface ships or they can declare they are “on station” when enemy warships pass thru sea zones occupied by your submarines leading to combat.
    2. The owner of the surface ships now allocates any Cruisers or Destroyers to screen out any other ships of his fleet.
    3. You allocate your subs to groups in ships paired under item #2
    4. You rolls for each submarine hitting on a two or less ( if you have two or more subs you gain a +1 combat modifier)
    5. If the sub is attacking any ship(s) that does not contain a Cruiser or Destroyer your sub hits are preemptive and losses are taken on the targeted ship.
    6. If the targeted ship contains a “screening” Cruiser or Destroyer any hits are applied to them instead and are not preemptive.
    7. Any remaining surface ships now roll for search with a successful location detected of all submarines occurring on a roll of two or less. Each Cruiser and Destroyer (and Latter UK / USA planes) gets one roll.
    8. If success is received each aforementioned ship (and now including Battleships) can now receive one roll hitting the submarine on a roll of two or less.
    9. All loses are allocated and either player can retreat partially or in full. Submarines have a further option of submerging and remaining in the sea zone.

    Summary of ASW Naval Combat:

    1. You’re Cruisers and Destroyers (and latter UK and USA planes) each move into sea zones containing enemy submarines with the intention of attacking them.
    2. Each receives one ASW rolls searching/hitting on a two or less (modified to three for UK/USA on turn 13).
    3. If you fail to locate the enemy submarine those participating units end their turn.
    4. If you succeed and locate the submarine each of the aforementioned ships (and now Battleships) gets a second roll again hitting on a two or less (or three on turn 13).
    5. Enemy subs can defend but the roll is not preemptive.
    6. All loses are allocated and either player can retreat partially or in full. Submarines have a further option of submerging and remaining in the sea zone.

    Shore Bombardment and Infantry Support
    During Ground Combat, for amphibious assaults, all surface warships with a primary combat value of two or higher have one preemptive “shore bombardment” attack. In order to support landings you must land four Land units to receive one shore bombardment shot. Defenders losses do not fire back. In addition, each warship (whether supporting or not) improves one attacking infantry unit with an attack die roll modifier of +1 on the first round only. So if you only land 3 Infantry, you still get each of them with a +1 modifier provided you have at least three warships with an attack value of two. Warships that participate in Naval Combat may not shore bombard or provide infantry support for amphibious assaults.

    Defending Artillery fire in Amphibious Assault
    Following shore bombardment attacks, any defending artillery units present then receive one round of preemptive fire upon invading enemy units. Hits are taken first (chosen by the attacker) and removed from play. Land combat then follows in the normal manner starting with section #2.

    First Round land combat restrictions
    The attacker’s first land combat phase is restricted to Infantry only (including Airborne).

    So to summarize invasions:
    4) Shore bombardment (preemptive).
    5) Defender artillery fire support (preemptive).
    6) Tactical Air Command missions against defending air units/ land units (preemptive if only land units are defending).
    7) Attacking Infantry can attack on round one; all other land units can attack on round two or latter.
    😎 Defender rolls for all land units (except Artillery which fired).
    9) Continue combat rounds until one side is destroyed or retreats from battle.



  • @Imperious:

    Say the subs are placed as follows: all three on the CV… hoping to hit three times!

    Oh yeah. How can I forgot about that. Submarines can “focus fire”.

    it reflects a balance of what the subs themselves add to the game. If ships can kill at 3+ or only 1, then subs will have little effect , or ships will have little effect against subs.

    Thats alright then. I don’t know the historic information about sumbarine combat.
    Like who should do better when a destroyer combats with a submarine?

    When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.
    ++++ this is not correct interpretation… The DD STOPS the preemtive attack of subs… the dd still gets to roll for search and if succesful again rolls for attacks.

    But I am talking about the odds of hitting. 33% for submarines. 11% for destroyers.
    Again this could be ok…I don’t know historically how well destroyers fights submarines.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thats alright then. I don’t know the historic information about sumbarine combat.
    Like who should do better when a destroyer combats with a submarine?

    ++++ ok say one sub went after a DD… The DD has to jump thru more hoops because it need to roll twice at 1-2 to sink the sub, while the sub only has one roll. The Sub automatically locates the DD, while the DD has to search first. plus if the sub is near any sea zone off you nation it can perform an economic attack costing you money. The sub however cant attack planes and it cant be involved in surface combat with other ships. thats done seperately. I belive each has something to offer, plus after sufficient tech occurs the DD has a better roll on the subs, while in the case of german type XX1 uboats (a tech letter in the war) Germany can turn the tide once more.

    Quote
    When 2 SS attack 2 DD…the SS is likely to kill both DD without getting hurt.
    ++++ this is not correct interpretation… The DD STOPS the preemtive attack of subs… the dd still gets to roll for search and if succesful again rolls for attacks.
    But I am talking about the odds of hitting. 33% for submarines. 11% for destroyers.
    Again this could be ok…I don’t know historically how well destroyers fights submarines.

    ++++ As stated before its true that a DD has to roll twice at 1-2 to sink a sub. this is historical. Its much harder to sink subs then it is to send torpedos while in stealth underwater.Latter with technology… this begins to change



  • How does air units fit in the naval hit allocation system?

    Group1: BB CV
    Group2: DD
    Group3: TR
    Group4: FTR and BMR

    I am thinking of making TR hits can only be allocated against TR.


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