Loading Transports in Hostile Seazones



  • @Krieghund said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    As this rule has been the same in every game since Classic.

    This is part of where the confusion is. I’ve played a lot of Axis & Allies Classic (but not for many years now), including making the popular Axis & Allies Combat Analysis Program, http://www.mninter.net/~jch/aa/, and have also won the A&A Mega Tourney at Gen Con with Josh Paulson and Michael Houg many times (http://www.headlesshorseman2.com/gen-con.html#a:~:text=Hamlin). And in Classic, there was never a restriction that a transport couldn’t be used to bridge units into an amphibious assault, even if the sea zone was occupied. It didn’t come up very often, but A&A Classic didn’t have the restriction that transports cannot load in a hostile sea zone, they were only restricted from unloading if the sea zone was hostile (i.e. the sea zone had to be cleared before the units could land for the land battle part of an amphibious assault). I just went back and reviewed classic second edition rulebook to make sure. @Krieghund, you’re the expert rules guy, can you point me to a place where it says that it was this way in Classic too?

    Thanks.

    -J.C.


  • Official Q&A

    I’ve reviewed the Classic rules, and it seems you are correct. There is no restriction there against loading in a hostile sea zone. However, such a restriction was not necessary under the standard rules, as this situation can only occur when using the optional rule that allows placing new units in a hostile sea zone and that sea zone contains enemy transports. As every game since then (1999’s A&A Europe onward) does not allow loading in a hostile sea zone, one can only assume that this was a loophole created by an optional rule which was never caught, and was not intended. (I can check with Larry if you want verification of that, but I’m certain it was not intended.)

    In any case, you are correct that this technically was allowed in Classic, even if only as a loophole. I must amend my statement to say that it hasn’t been allowed in any A&A game since then.



  • @Krieghund said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    I’ve reviewed the Classic rules, and it seems you are correct. There is no restriction there against loading in a hostile sea zone.

    Good to know we weren’t playing classic wrong all those years!

    However, such a restriction was not necessary under the standard rules, as this situation can only occur when using the optional rule that allows placing new units in a hostile sea zone and that sea zone contains enemy transports.

    That’s not correct. It happens any time you play with a later game German navy when the UK fleet isn’t at home and Germany has sea units in its sea zone. You can move the UK fleet home, destroy the German fleet, and bridge land units from UK into an amphibious assault on Western (assuming you win the sea battle), all in the same turn.

    It sometimes happens with Japan too, where Japan can move home, destroy the US fleet there, and bridge units into combat in Manchuria (assuming the US landed there).

    Enemy units in a sea zone never prevented bridging in A&A Classic. It works just like an amphibious assault with both a sea battle and a land battle, if you win the sea battle you can then bridge into the land battle. While not common in games (Germany usually didn’t build fleets and US rarely built in the Pacific), it was part of the classic game and no optional rules were required for the case to happen.

    As every game since then (1999’s A&A Europe onward) does not allow loading in a hostile sea zone.

    Yeah, I see that. However, I still think bridging replaces (or should replace) loading and unloading actions. You don’t load or unload a bridge, you simply just walk across one. If you clear a sea zone, you should be able to bridge into an amphibious assault, just like you could in classic.

    I can check with Larry if you want verification of that.

    I’ve pinged Larry and provided him a link to this thread. I might be using an outdated email address though. If you could ping him and point him to this thread as well, that would be great.

    Not being able to bridge into an amphibious assault after clearing a sea zone results in a pretty weird rules glitch. It results in people doing some strange moves like Italy building a destroyer and dropping it onto an oversized US fleet just to take advantage of this glitch. It makes sense that transports cannot unload / amphibious assault if the sea zone has enemy surface ships present, but not being able to bridge into an amphibious assault once the sea zone is clear doesn’t seem to fit the spirit of the game.

    -J.C.


  • Official Q&A

    @jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    However, such a restriction was not necessary under the standard rules, as this situation can only occur when using the optional rule that allows placing new units in a hostile sea zone and that sea zone contains enemy transports.

    That’s not correct. It happens any time you play with a later game German navy when the UK fleet isn’t at home and Germany has sea units in its sea zone. You can move the UK fleet home, destroy the German fleet, and bridge land units from UK into an amphibious assault on Western (assuming you win the sea battle), all in the same turn.

    It sometimes happens with Japan too, where Japan can move home, destroy the US fleet there, and bridge units into combat in Manchuria (assuming the US landed there).

    Enemy units in a sea zone never prevented bridging in A&A Classic. It works just like an amphibious assault with both a sea battle and a land battle, if you win the sea battle you can then bridge into the land battle. While not common in games (Germany usually didn’t build fleets and US rarely built in the Pacific), it was part of the classic game and no optional rules were required for the case to happen.

    This is not legal. Even if you concede that bridging allows loading in a hostile sea zone, that does not lift the requirement that all combat movement with the exception of offloading units for an amphibious assault must be done before any combat is resolved. As I said before, there is nothing in the bridging rule that explicitly overrides that requirement.

    As every game since then (1999’s A&A Europe onward) does not allow loading in a hostile sea zone.

    Yeah, I see that. However, I still think bridging replaces (or should replace) loading and unloading actions. You don’t load or unload a bridge, you simply just walk across one. If you clear a sea zone, you should be able to bridge into an amphibious assault, just like you could in classic.

    You are reading too much into the term “bridging”. As I said before, it simply means that a transport can move within a sea zone to load and offload units. It conveys no special powers or privileges.



  • @Krieghund said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    I’ve reviewed the Classic rules, and it seems you are correct. There is no restriction there against loading in a hostile sea zone. However, such a restriction was not necessary under the standard rules, as this situation can only occur when using the optional rule that allows placing new units in a hostile sea zone and that sea zone contains enemy transports.

    How about submerging submarines in 3rd Edition?

    As every game since then (1999’s A&A Europe onward) does not allow loading in a hostile sea zone, one can only assume that this was a loophole created by an optional rule which was never caught, and was not intended. (I can check with Larry if you want verification of that, but I’m certain it was not intended.)

    In any case, you are correct that this technically was allowed in Classic, even if only as a loophole. I must amend my statement to say that it hasn’t been allowed in any A&A game since then.

    If the Classic rules are not telling you that you cannot bridge into battle through a hostile sea zone (that just means load one or more units to offload them all into combat using a transport that is not moving), how are they telling you that you cannot move the transport into the hostile sea zone, then load one or more units to offload them all into combat? I’m sure this is not possible, but just wondering.


    @jchamlin Bridging merely means that the transport counts as having moved.



  • @Krieghund said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    @jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    However, such a restriction was not necessary under the standard rules, as this situation can only occur when using the optional rule that allows placing new units in a hostile sea zone and that sea zone contains enemy transports.

    That’s not correct. It happens any time you play with a later game German navy when the UK fleet isn’t at home and Germany has sea units in its sea zone. You can move the UK fleet home, destroy the German fleet, and bridge land units from UK into an amphibious assault on Western (assuming you win the sea battle), all in the same turn.

    It sometimes happens with Japan too, where Japan can move home, destroy the US fleet there, and bridge units into combat in Manchuria (assuming the US landed there).

    Enemy units in a sea zone never prevented bridging in A&A Classic. It works just like an amphibious assault with both a sea battle and a land battle, if you win the sea battle you can then bridge into the land battle. While not common in games (Germany usually didn’t build fleets and US rarely built in the Pacific), it was part of the classic game and no optional rules were required for the case to happen.

    This is not legal. Even if you concede that bridging allows loading in a hostile sea zone, that does not lift the requirement that all combat movement with the exception of offloading units for an amphibious assault must be done before any combat is resolved.

    Both of the moves I described are perfectly legal in classic. You move the UK fleet home to the UK sea zone where the German fleet is, load the transports, declare the amphibious assault, clear the sea zone, then resolve the land battle. In this case, the transports are bridging (both loading and unloading without moving in between the load and unload actions).

    What part of that is not legal in classic?

    -J.C.


  • Official Q&A

    Doing that is legal, based on the fact that you can load in a hostile sea zone. What you said before (move in, attack, load, offload) is not. It’s the order which you do it that’s important.

    This matters because you must commit the land units to the assault before the sea battle is fought.



  • @Krieghund said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Doing that is legal, based on the fact that you can load in a hostile sea zone. What you said before (move in, attack, load, offload) is not. It’s the order which you do it that’s important.

    This matters because you must commit the land units to the assault before the sea battle is fought.

    Agreed that you need to commit the units to the amphibious assault before any battle is fought.

    However, I’d like to clarify for the record that I never said “move in, attack, load, offload”.

    I provided you two cases that happen in A&A classic to demonstrate that the move to both clear a sea zone and use the transports to conduct an amphibious assault where they will be operating under the briding rule of both loading and unloading without moving in between the load and unload operations, and also that this combination of actions (i.e. “the situation”) does not require any optional / additional rules to be added to the game for it to exist (i.e. you said earlier):

    However, such a restriction was not necessary under the standard rules, as this situation can only occur when using the optional rule …

    So, this situation (loading transports in a hostile sea zone) can occur in the standard / classic game without any optional rules added. But it can only happen if the transports are being used as a bridge (both loading and unloading without moving in between the load and unload).

    In summary:

    • The action of bridging into an amphibious assault in a hostile sea zone is legal in classic.

    • Assuming the rules for bridging are being interpreted correctly, the action appears to be not legal in any version of A&A since classic.

    • Assuming you find yourself in this situation in any version of A&A since classic with a fleet sitting in a hostile sea zone (due to the defender building a destroyer to block), with empty transports, and units available to be picked up from that sea zone for an amphibious assault but cannot: it will take you THREE TURNS before you can conduct an amphibious assault (assuming you don’t get allied help to destroy the blocker). Turn 1: transports flee empty before combat, some portion of the fleet remains to kill the destroyer built to block (as stated earlier in this thread, they must flee, if they stay they are forced to are participate in the sea zone combat and this cannot be loaded during non-combat).
      Turn 2: kill the second destroyer built to block, non-combat the transports back in and load them
      Turn 3: conduct the amphibious assault

    The rules glitch is that a single destroyer built on each of two turns in this case can delay the impending amphibious assault by THREE TURNS. That seems against the spirit of the game.

    -J.C.


  • Official Q&A

    @jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Agreed that you need to commit the units to the amphibious assault before any battle is fought.

    However, I’d like to clarify for the record that I never said “move in, attack, load, offload”.

    I took “move the UK home fleet, destroy the German fleet, and bridge land units from the UK into an amphibious assault” to imply that order of events.

    However, such a restriction was not necessary under the standard rules, as this situation can only occur when using the optional rule …

    So, this situation (loading transports in a hostile sea zone) can occur in the standard game without any optional rules added. But it can only happen if the transports are being used as a bridge (both loading and unloading without moving in between the load and unload).

    Yes, it can. However, it’s still debatable whether this was intended or a loophole. I am attempting to get clarification. In either case, it is what it is.

    In summary:

    • The action of bridging into an amphibious assault in a hostile sea zone is legal in classic.

    • Assuming the rules for bridging are being interpreted correctly, the action appears to be not legal in any version of A&A since classic.

    Both correct.

    • Assuming you find yourself in this situation in any version of A&A since classic with a fleet sitting in a hostile sea zone (due to the defender building a destroyer to block), with empty transports, and units available to be picked up from that sea zone for an amphibious assault but cannot: it will take you THREE TURNS before you can conduct an amphibious assault. Turn 1: transports flee empty before combat, some portion of the fleet remains to kill the destroyer built to block (as stated earlier in this thread, they must flee, if they stay they are forced to are participate in the sea zone combat and this cannot be loaded during non-combat).
      Turn 2: kill the second destroyer built to block, non-combat the transports back in and load them
      Turn 3: conduct the amphibious assault

    Correct, assuming that there is no other workaround available, such as moving the land units to another territory or using land units in another territory for the assault.

    The rules glitch is that a single destroyer built on each of two turns in this case can delay the impending amphibious assault by THREE TURNS. That seems against the spirit of the game.

    We must agree to disagree on this point.



  • @Krieghund said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Doing that is legal, based on the fact that you can load in a hostile sea zone. What you said before (move in, attack, load, offload) is not. It’s the order which you do it that’s important.

    This matters because you must commit the land units to the assault before the sea battle is fought.

    Just to be absolutely sure, are you actually saying that, according to a literal interpretation of the rules, the following sequence of actions is legal:

    During the British turn, the sea zone next to the United Kingdom being occupied by 1 German battleship at start turn, move 1 empty British transport into the sea zone next to the United Kingdom territory, load 1 or 2 units from the United Kingdom territory onto the transport, declare the intention to offload all the loaded units into Western Europe, conduct combat with 1 German battleship in the sea zone, clear the sea zone with the transport surviving, offload all the loaded units into Western Europe.

    If you are saying that the above is legal (as @jchamlin appears to be sure that it is), I think here we have once again a case of a conflict between the literal interpretation of the rules and the interpretation of the intention behind the rules.

    This is something that happens, when interpreting laws (the rules of a game are laws too, of course). Some links:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_meaning_rule
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischief_rule
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rule_(law)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_approach

    As much as I’m surprised that you are conceding to it, I tend to agree with you that, according to a literal interpretation of the rules, the move above should be allowed (because the rules fail to disallow it).

    However, I’m pretty sure that the intention behind the rules is not to allow that sequence of actions (just the way the rules are explained is not literally covering the case).

    The main reason why I believe so is given by the fact that, by the rules, enemy ships have the ability to impede you offloading into a territory, from the sea zone they are inside. The dynamic by which this happens can only be pictured as these ships interposing themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to offload. Therefore, it would make no sense that, instead, they are unable to interpose themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to load. If you need to destroy all enemy ships before offloading to a coastline, it makes the only sense that you need to destroy all enemy ships before loading from a coastline, at least in the case in which the transports are moving into the sea zone (thus being blocked by the enemy ships, from moving any further).

    Obviously, we all realize that it is next to impossible that whoever holds the copyright over the original 4 classic editions (comprising their rulebooks) is going to publish official errata or addenda, at this point.

    So, what are we going to do? Can Larry be summoned for a quasi-official clarification of the rules (that I’m pretty sure will say the move is forbidden)? Can he publish an actual official integration for the rulebook on his own?


    Assuming you find yourself in this situation in any version of A&A since classic with a fleet sitting in a hostile sea zone (due to the defender building a destroyer to block), with empty transports, and units available to be picked up from that sea zone for an amphibious assault but cannot: it will take you THREE TURNS before you can conduct an amphibious assault (assuming you don’t get allied help to destroy the blocker). Turn 1: transports flee empty before combat, some portion of the fleet remains to kill the destroyer built to block (as stated earlier in this thread, they must flee, if they stay they are forced to are participate in the sea zone combat and this cannot be loaded during non-combat).
    Turn 2: kill the second destroyer built to block, non-combat the transports back in and load them
    Turn 3: conduct the amphibious assault

    @jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).


    Finally, @Krieghund, even though it doesn’t really matter, as “bridging” is merely flavour text, can we clarify it? @jchamlin clearly believes that moving into a sea zone and, then, loading and offloading units without moving any further is bridging. My understanding, instead, is that no bridging is happening during such sequence of actions, as bridging is, instead, when you load and offload units during the same turn while the transports doesn’t move at all, during the phase in which it is bridging (thus it is also not moving during the whole turn). So, is bridging whatever situation in which you load and offload without moving between loading an offloading (as @jchamlin believes) or is bridging only the situation in which you load and offload without moving the transport at all, during the whole phase (as I believe)?


  • Official Q&A

    @Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Just to be absolutely sure, are you actually saying that, according to a literal interpretation of the rules, the following sequence of actions is legal:

    During the British turn, the sea zone next to the United Kingdom being occupied by 1 German battleship at start turn, move 1 empty British transport into the sea zone next to the United Kingdom territory, load 1 or 2 units from the United Kingdom territory onto the transport, declare the intention to offload all the loaded units into Western Europe, conduct combat with 1 German battleship in the sea zone, clear the sea zone with the transport surviving, offload all the loaded units into Western Europe.

    If you are saying that the above is legal (as @jchamlin appears to be sure that it is), I think here we have once again a case of a conflict between the literal interpretation of the rules and the interpretation of the intention behind the rules.

    This is something that happens, when interpreting laws (the rules of a game are laws too, of course). Some links:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_meaning_rule
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischief_rule
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rule_(law)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_approach

    As much as I’m surprised that you are conceding to it, I tend to agree with you that, according to a literal interpretation of the rules, the move above should be allowed (because the rules fail to disallow it).

    However, I’m pretty sure that the intention behind the rules is not to allow that sequence of actions (just the way the rules are explained is not literally covering the case).

    The main reason why I believe so is given by the fact that, by the rules, enemy ships have the ability to impede you offloading into a territory, from the sea zone they are inside. The dynamic by which this happens can only be pictured as these ships interposing themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to offload. Therefore, it would make no sense that, instead, they are unable to interpose themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to load. If you need to destroy all enemy ships before offloading to a coastline, it makes the only sense that you need to destroy all enemy ships before loading from a coastline, at least in the case in which the transports are moving into the sea zone (thus being blocked by the enemy ships, from moving any further).

    Well, it is a slightly different situation. When loading, you are in friendly waters within the sea zone. While offloading for an amphibious assault, you are in enemy waters within the sea zone. It could be argued that enemy ships guard only their own coastline, and not yours. I realize this is splitting hairs, but it could be used as thematic justification for the difference.

    Obviously, we all realize that it is next to impossible that whoever holds the copyright over the original 4 classic editions (comprising their rulebooks) is going to publish official errata or addenda, at this point.

    So, what are we going to do? Can Larry be summoned for a quasi-official clarification of the rules (that I’m pretty sure will say the move is forbidden)? Can he publish an actual official integration for the rulebook on his own?

    I’m looking into it…

    Assuming you find yourself in this situation in any version of A&A since classic with a fleet sitting in a hostile sea zone (due to the defender building a destroyer to block), with empty transports, and units available to be picked up from that sea zone for an amphibious assault but cannot: it will take you THREE TURNS before you can conduct an amphibious assault (assuming you don’t get allied help to destroy the blocker). Turn 1: transports flee empty before combat, some portion of the fleet remains to kill the destroyer built to block (as stated earlier in this thread, they must flee, if they stay they are forced to are participate in the sea zone combat and this cannot be loaded during non-combat).
    Turn 2: kill the second destroyer built to block, non-combat the transports back in and load them
    Turn 3: conduct the amphibious assault

    @jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).

    Correct.

    Finally, @Krieghund, even though it doesn’t really matter, as “bridging” is merely flavour text, can we clarify it? @jchamlin clearly believes that moving into a sea zone and, then, loading and offloading units without moving any further is bridging. My understanding, instead, is that no bridging is happening during such sequence of actions, as bridging is, instead, when you load and offload units during the same turn while the transports doesn’t move at all, during the phase in which it is bridging (thus it is also not moving during the whole turn). So, is bridging whatever situation in which you load and offload without moving between loading an offloading (as @jchamlin believes) or is bridging only the situation in which you load and offload without moving the transport at all, during the whole phase (as I believe)?

    You’re right in that it doesn’t matter. Whether the transport moves first or not, it is loading and offloading within the same sea zone, and the point of the bridging rule is that this action is equivalent to loading and offloading in different sea zones, as the transport moves from one coast to another within the zone. So I would say that the nature of the loading and offloading is what defines bridging, not whether or not the transport moves first.



  • @Krieghund said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    @Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Just to be absolutely sure, are you actually saying that, according to a literal interpretation of the rules, the following sequence of actions is legal:

    During the British turn, the sea zone next to the United Kingdom being occupied by 1 German battleship at start turn, move 1 empty British transport into the sea zone next to the United Kingdom territory, load 1 or 2 units from the United Kingdom territory onto the transport, declare the intention to offload all the loaded units into Western Europe, conduct combat with 1 German battleship in the sea zone, clear the sea zone with the transport surviving, offload all the loaded units into Western Europe.

    If you are saying that the above is legal (as @jchamlin appears to be sure that it is), I think here we have once again a case of a conflict between the literal interpretation of the rules and the interpretation of the intention behind the rules.

    This is something that happens, when interpreting laws (the rules of a game are laws too, of course). Some links:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_meaning_rule
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischief_rule
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rule_(law)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_approach

    As much as I’m surprised that you are conceding to it, I tend to agree with you that, according to a literal interpretation of the rules, the move above should be allowed (because the rules fail to disallow it).

    However, I’m pretty sure that the intention behind the rules is not to allow that sequence of actions (just the way the rules are explained is not literally covering the case).

    The main reason why I believe so is given by the fact that, by the rules, enemy ships have the ability to impede you offloading into a territory, from the sea zone they are inside. The dynamic by which this happens can only be pictured as these ships interposing themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to offload. Therefore, it would make no sense that, instead, they are unable to interpose themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to load. If you need to destroy all enemy ships before offloading to a coastline, it makes the only sense that you need to destroy all enemy ships before loading from a coastline, at least in the case in which the transports are moving into the sea zone (thus being blocked by the enemy ships, from moving any further).

    Well, it is a slightly different situation. When loading, you are in friendly waters within the sea zone. While offloading for an amphibious assault, you are in enemy waters within the sea zone. It could be argued that enemy ships guard only their own coastline, and not yours. I realize this is splitting hairs, but it could be used as thematic justification for the difference.

    Right. But I also believe that the ability of enemy ships of blocking you from moving any further also implies that they are blocking you from moving within the sea zone. Since a ship that starts its turn inside a hostile sea zone is not blocked from moving out of it, while a ship that entered the same sea zone is blocked from moving out of it, I believe that only ships that started their turn inside the hostile sea zone are in “friendly waters”. That is why I would rule that ships that are already inside the sea zone and have not yet moved can load (which would apply only if using the optional rule for placing in hostile sea zones or as a consequence of the 3rd Edition only submerge rule), while ships that entered the sea zone on the same phase (and are blocked by the enemy units) cannot load. However, a question would be whether or not, in either the first or the second case, they can load during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase, if they didn’t offload and the sea zone has been cleared (I know that they can in Revised OOB but not in any games since Revised LHTR).



  • @Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Thank you very much for the reply. It is very informative and very much in-line with the type of discussion I had hoped to would happen on the topic.

    The main reason why I believe so is given by the fact that, by the rules, enemy ships have the ability to impede you offloading into a territory, from the sea zone they are inside. The dynamic by which this happens can only be pictured as these ships interposing themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to offload. Therefore, it would make no sense that, instead, they are unable to interpose themselves between your transports and the coastline where you intend to load. If you need to destroy all enemy ships before offloading to a coastline, it makes the only sense that you need to destroy all enemy ships before loading from a coastline, at least in the case in which the transports are moving into the sea zone (thus being blocked by the enemy ships, from moving any further).

    I agree, that would be the dynamic for transports entering the sea zone from outside, and then attempting to bridge units across. The defending units could attempt to impede the load, or impede the unload. Tactically speaking impeding the unload might be superior since you are closer to your coast and can have the support of your shore batteries, and you are sinking transports with cargo, which is always more valuable than sinking empty transports. Also, impeding the unload action seems much more like “defending” your territory from incursion, and attempting to impede the load by sailing away from the coast you’re supposed to be defending to an enemy coast to attack an enemy port seems more like an “attack” or preemptive strike than defending. When it’s not your turn, you’re units are supposed to be “defending”, not “attacking”.

    But nonetheless, the attacking units are performing a maneuver that is legal in the absence of the defender’s presence: arrive in the sea zone, load troops, unload troops on the enemy shore, and fight an amphibious assault. The fact that there are defending warships in the sea zone should just mean you have to destroy them first before you can proceed with the maneuver. However, due to the way the rules work for every game other than classic, this is not allowed.

    Now, if the transports started in the sea zone at the start of the turn along with warship support, and the enemy launched a new fleet into the sea zone during their mobilize phase, it would seem impossible for the defending ships to impede the loading of the transports. The transports were already there at the start of the turn and thus are presumably already docked and ready to load and the rest of the fleet is on patrol nearby to keep them safe. It seems strange that “defending” enemy surface warships could have any say at all about what transports can load from the sea zone they start their turn in. Attacking an enemy port during preparations for an amphibious assault in an attempt to disrupt the loading of the transports is an attack action. Even say they did attack and try to prevent the load, and get destroyed, then the amphibious assault operation just proceeds and now the attacking surface warships are now also free to bombard when they arrive at the enemy coast since there’s nothing left for them to engage at that point.

    @jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).

    Sorry for being new, but I’m not sure about all the acronyms for the various versions of the rules. I think OOB is Out of the Box (i.e. rules as written), and LHTR is Larry Harris Tournament Rules. So, you’re saying there’s a Revised OOB ruleset that allows transports to participate in both the combat and non-combat phases, by first “participating” in the sea battle (not that they do much) and then still participating in non-combat by loading units? Can the transports also move during non-combat after loading, and also unload, or can they just be loaded? Can you point me to where this revised rule is please (link to a forum thread, a rulebook page, an official errata/FAQ, etc)? I can’t seem to find it. The only thing I’ve found is the rule that says all ships present in the sea zone must participate in the battle.

    Finally, @Krieghund, even though it doesn’t really matter, as “bridging” is merely flavour text, can we clarify it? @jchamlin clearly believes that moving into a sea zone and, then, loading and offloading units without moving any further is bridging. My understanding, instead, is that no bridging is happening during such sequence of actions, as bridging is, instead, when you load and offload units during the same turn while the transports doesn’t move at all, during the phase in which it is bridging (thus it is also not moving during the whole turn). So, is bridging whatever situation in which you load and offload without moving between loading an offloading (as @jchamlin believes) or is bridging only the situation in which you load and offload without moving the transport at all, during the whole phase (as I believe)?

    Looks like @Krieghund already answered:

    So I would say that the nature of the loading and offloading is what defines bridging, not whether or not the transport moves first.

    So it looks like my interpretation is correct, that bridging is when you load and offload in the same sea zone. It doesn’t matter if the transport moves first. It only matters that it doesn’t move (i.e. doesn’t change sea zones) between the load and the unload actions.

    I think the rules of both A&A Classic and A&A Europe 1942 that describe bridging support this conclusion. In A&A Classic the rulebook reads:

    A transport can pick up cargo, move 1 or 2 sea zones, and unload the cargo all in the same move. THE CARGO CAN BE PICKED UP BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE TRANSPORT MOVES. … ONCE A TRANSPORT UNLOADS, HOWEVER, ITS MOVE IS OVER!

    The next paragraph then goes on to describe bridging. Since all of the rules examples of using transports up until this point in the rulebook had them picking up cargo and moving 1 or 2 sea zones (or picking up, moving 1, picking up more, and moving again, and then dropping off), it wasn’t clear whether or not transports had to move in between picking up cargo and dropping it off. So, thus, the bridging rule was introduced.

    Bridging: A transport can even load and unload units without moving from the sea zone it is in by “bridging”.

    Note, it doesn’t say without moving at all. It says load and unload units without moving from the sea zone it is in. It could be more clearly written that bridging is when you load units and then offload them in another territory from the same sea zone where you loaded the units (i.e. a load and unload that does not require the transport to move to a different sea zone).

    And A&A Europe 1940 Second Edition rulebook has this wording:

    A transport can load and offload units without moving from the friendly sea zone it’s in (this is known as“bridging”). Each such transport is still limited to its cargo capacity. It can offload in only one territory, and once it offloads, it can’t move, load, or offload again that turn.

    It’s pretty clear here that the phrase “can’t move, load, or offload again” means “can’t move again, can’t load again, can’t offload again”. Can’t move again clearly implies that the transport could have moved before bridging.

    And finally, I want to address this:

    even though it doesn’t really matter, as “bridging” is merely flavour text

    Do we have an official statement from Larry Harris that bridging and the rulebook text around it is “merely flavour text”?

    For example, the case of bridging into an amphibious assault when the transports start their turn in the sea zone from which they wish to perform the amphibious assault, do we know if it was Larry’s intent to really allow the purchase and mobilization of a single destroyer in that sea zone to be able to prevent the assault? If there’s an official reference to a comment from Larry saying so, I’d really like to read it. Otherwise, I think it would be good if Larry would chime in on this thread and provide us some context of why this is the case (i.e. what’s the purpose of the rule, either historically/factually, or is it for game balance reasons, or is this just an unintended side-effect of the rule that transports can’t load or unload from a hostile sea zone that he didn’t foresee)?

    -J.C.


  • Official Q&A

    @jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    And finally, I want to address this:

    even though it doesn’t really matter, as “bridging” is merely flavour text

    Do we have an official statement from Larry Harris that bridging and the rulebook text around it is “merely flavour text”?

    For example, the case of bridging into an amphibious assault when the transports start their turn in the sea zone from which they wish to perform the amphibious assault, do we know if it was Larry’s intent to really allow the purchase and mobilization of a single destroyer in that sea zone to be able to prevent the assault? If there’s an official reference to a comment from Larry saying so, I’d really like to read it. Otherwise, I think it would be good if Larry would chime in on this thread and provide us some context of why this is the case (i.e. what’s the purpose of the rule, either historically/factually, or is it for game balance reasons, or is this just an unintended side-effect of the rule that transports can’t load or unload from a hostile sea zone that he didn’t foresee)?

    I have already addressed this. There is no need for clarification from Larry regarding Global 1940, as the rules speak for themselves. Loading in a hostile sea zone is forbidden, and the bridging rule does nothing to override this. Furthermore, the rules for sea units starting their turn in a hostile sea zone on page 13 of the Europe Rulebook make no mention of an exception for transports loading under such conditions, stating that they must leave the zone, load, and return in order to perform an amphibious assault there. Additional proof can be found in the rules for declaring war, on page 11 of the Europe Rulebook:

    During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a state of war, your transports that are already in sea zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared, while the sea zone is still friendly.

    This is an exception for loading in an already-occupied hostile sea zone when declaring war, indicating that it is not normally possible.



  • @jchamlin We shouldn’t go too much off topic, so I’ll try to answer concisely here, and just because you asked for it. Hopefully @Krieghund will take care to correct me if I’m giving wrong information.

    @jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    @jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).

    Sorry for being new, but I’m not sure about all the acronyms for the various versions of the rules. I think OOB is Out of the Box (i.e. rules as written),

    Literally, yes, but I believe that by OOB it is meant also to comprise every official information without the box, that are part of the same rules set as the one included in the game, especially “errata”, giving them priority over every information within the box (so it’s not like OOB means you just look at what’s in the box and disregard everything else). Moreover, it also comprises whatever still valid information given by the original author or any person appointed directly or indirectly by him for giving official answers. Anyways, I believe here this matter is irrelevant, as the original rulebook is clear enough, on the rules at hand.

    and LHTR is Larry Harris Tournament Rules.

    Of course, and, obviously, the latest version of it if not differently specified.

    So, you’re saying there’s a Revised OOB ruleset that allows transports to participate in both the combat and non-combat phases, by first “participating” in the sea battle (not that they do much) and then still participating in non-combat by loading units?

    Differently from bridging, loading (only) doesn’t count as a movement for the transport. So, technically, the transport is not moving during Non-Combat, if it only loads. Rather than allowing this, the rules set is not disallowing it (while LHTR and later do). However, the rules set also specifically states that a transport that Combat moved or took part in battle can load, but cannot bridge, on the subsequent Non-Combat move phase, as long as it didn’t offload, during the turn. The only two exceptions to this are if the transport offloaded or retreated.

    Can the transports also move during non-combat after loading,

    No (that’s the reason why it can load but it cannot bridge, since bridging counts as moving).

    and also unload, or can they just be loaded?

    It can load or offload, but not both (because it cannot bridge), if it hasn’t offloaded anything. If it offloaded one or more units (during Combat Move or Conduct Combat), it cannot load and it is restricted offloading into the same territory as before (the offloading can only happen if you started your turn with 2 units already on board and offloaded only 1 during Combat Move or Conduct Combat).

    Can you point me to where this revised rule is please (link to a forum thread, a rulebook page, an official errata/FAQ, etc)? I can’t seem to find it. The only thing I’ve found is the rule that says all ships present in the sea zone must participate in the battle.

    As I said, the fact that you can load, after having taken part in Conduct Combat without retreating from a battle and without offloading, is primarily the consequence of the fact that there are no rules that say you cannot (loading without offloading is not a movement for the transport).
    This is the Revised OOB rules set:
    https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Revised.pdf

    On page 21 you can find the (unnecessary) clarification I mentioned:

    Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

    As I said, even if the text quoted above would be absent from the rulebook I linked, you could still do that, since the rules set is not forbidding you to do it (and it is already forbidding you to do “both”, as that would be bridging, that counts as moving, which is not possible after having been in combat).



  • @Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    So, you’re saying the Global A&A Second edition rules allow transports to participate in both the combat and non-combat phases, by first “participating” in the sea battle (not that they do much) and then still participating in non-combat by loading units?

    Differently from bridging, loading (only) doesn’t count as a movement for the transport. So, technically, the transport is not moving during Non-Combat, if it only loads. Rather than allowing this, the rules set is not disallowing it (while LHTR and later do). However, the rules set also specifically states that a transport that Combat moved or took part in battle can load, but cannot bridge, on the subsequent Non-Combat move phase, as long as it didn’t offload, during the turn. The only two exceptions to this are if the transport offloaded or retreated.

    It can load or offload, but not both (because it cannot bridge), if it hasn’t offloaded anything. If it offloaded one or more units (during Combat Move or Conduct Combat), it cannot load and it is restricted offloading into the same territory as before (the offloading can only happen if you started your turn with 2 units already on board and offloaded only 1 during Combat Move or Conduct Combat).

    Can you point me to where this rule is please (link to a forum thread, a rulebook page, an official errata/FAQ, etc)? I can’t seem to find it. The only thing I’ve found is the rule that says all ships present in the sea zone must participate in the battle.

    As I said, the fact that you can load, after having taken part in Conduct Combat without retreating from a battle and without offloading, is primarily the consequence of the fact that there are no rules that say you cannot (loading without offloading is not a movement for the transport).
    This is the Revised OOB rules set:
    https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Revised.pdf

    On page 21 you can find the (unnecessary) clarification I mentioned:

    Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

    As I said, even if the text quoted above would be absent from the rulebook I linked, you could still do that, since the rules set is not forbidding you to do it (and it is already forbidding you to do “both”, as that would be bridging, that counts as moving, which is not possible after having been in combat).

    We’re playing A&A Global using the second edition rules (from the books), not revised OOB. This statement doesn’t appear in the second edition rulebooks for either Europe or Pacific And this ruling is being challenged by one of the players using this part of the rules:

    Page 22 of the A&A Pacific 1940 Second Edition Rulebook says:

    Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.

    So, basically, the ruling challenge is that this sentence means that transports cannot do any of those things if they were involved in combat.

    Can you help point me to the relevant parts of the A&A Pacific 1940 or A&A Europe 1940 Second Edition rulebooks which would clarify that you can load or unload, but not both, and not move, if the transport was involved in combat that turn?

    Thanks in advance!

    -J.C.



  • @jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Page 22 of the A&A Pacific 1940 Second Edition Rulebook says:

    Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.

    So, basically, the ruling challenge is that this sentence means that transports cannot do any of those things if they were involved in combat.

    Can you help point me to the relevant parts of the A&A Pacific 1940 or A&A Europe 1940 Second Edition rulebooks which would clarify that you can load or unload, but not both, and not move, if the transport was involved in combat that turn?

    Thanks in advance!

    -J.C.

    You cannot. From Revised LHTR onwards, rules like those you quoted disallow transports that have been in combat from loading and from offloading. I was merely pointing out that is not the case “since classic”, as you said, but rather since Revised LHTR. This is what I said:

    @Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Assuming you find yourself in this situation in any version of A&A since classic with a fleet sitting in a hostile sea zone (due to the defender building a destroyer to block), with empty transports, and units available to be picked up from that sea zone for an amphibious assault but cannot: it will take you THREE TURNS before you can conduct an amphibious assault (assuming you don’t get allied help to destroy the blocker). Turn 1: transports flee empty before combat, some portion of the fleet remains to kill the destroyer built to block (as stated earlier in this thread, they must flee, if they stay they are forced to are participate in the sea zone combat and this cannot be loaded during non-combat).
    Turn 2: kill the second destroyer built to block, non-combat the transports back in and load them
    Turn 3: conduct the amphibious assault

    @jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).



  • @Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    @jchamlin said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Page 22 of the A&A Pacific 1940 Second Edition Rulebook says:

    Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase.

    So, basically, the ruling challenge is that this sentence means that transports cannot do any of those things if they were involved in combat.

    Can you help point me to the relevant parts of the A&A Pacific 1940 or A&A Europe 1940 Second Edition rulebooks which would clarify that you can load or unload, but not both, and not move, if the transport was involved in combat that turn?

    Thanks in advance!

    -J.C.

    You cannot. From Revised LHTR onwards, rules like those you quoted disallow transports that have been in combat from loading and from offloading. I was merely pointing out that is not the case “since classic”, as you said, but rather since Revised LHTR. This is what I said:

    @Cernel said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Assuming you find yourself in this situation in any version of A&A since classic with a fleet sitting in a hostile sea zone (due to the defender building a destroyer to block), with empty transports, and units available to be picked up from that sea zone for an amphibious assault but cannot: it will take you THREE TURNS before you can conduct an amphibious assault (assuming you don’t get allied help to destroy the blocker). Turn 1: transports flee empty before combat, some portion of the fleet remains to kill the destroyer built to block (as stated earlier in this thread, they must flee, if they stay they are forced to are participate in the sea zone combat and this cannot be loaded during non-combat).
    Turn 2: kill the second destroyer built to block, non-combat the transports back in and load them
    Turn 3: conduct the amphibious assault

    @jchamlin I believe you are correct here for every strategic games since Revised LHTR (included). However, I believe that Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only, as, on turn 1, you can just leave the empty transports in the sea zone, have them taking part in the sea battle and, then, load units onto them (so they will start turn 2 in the same sea zone, but with the units already on board).

    You said:

    Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB (non-LHTR) reduce this to 2 turns only.

    Now I’m confused.

    What did you mean Europe, Pacific, and Revised (non-LHTR) reduce this to two turns only? Did you mean A&A Europe 1940 Second Edition, and A&A Pacific 1940 Second Edition, as well as Revised (blue book)?

    We’re playing A&A Global using the A&A Pacific 1940 Second Edition and and A&A Europe 1940 Second Edition rulebooks, not LHTR or Revised (Blue Book). So, is this allowed? If not, what did you mean when you said Europe, Pacific?

    -J.C.



  • @jchamlin No. “Europe” and “Pacific” are not “Europe 1940” and “Pacific 1940”.

    I guess I should have clarified I wasn’t talking about the 1940 ones. I understand only now this was the disconnect.

    Links:
    https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Europe-1999.pdf
    https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Pacific.pdf


  • 2020 2018 2017 '16 '15 TripleA

    This is a really interesting discussion! I dug out my old A&A Classic Second Edition rule book and I’ve been looking through it. Like the OP, I’ve been playing A&A since the original game. I started a long explanation with citations, but I’m not sure anyone wants to read it. So the Cole’s notes version is this:

    • in original A&A, a unit could never begin its turn in an enemy-occupied or enemy-controlled (hostile) territory or sea zone.

    • the combat part of the action sequence is “Combat Movement”, and the section of the rules is littered with detail about how to move your units into combat. It’s a fundamental concept, particularly in a new game being introduced to the public: first you move your units to create the combat, and then later you would actually resolve (roll) the combat.

    • for transports, the explanation starts out by saying how transports move. they can move 1 or 2 spaces, pick up, drop, and the rules show many examples.

    • after this, it describes “bridging”. To me, this section is redundant unless it’s emphasizing that combat loading and unloading doesn’t require the transport to move at all. Otherwise, it’s covered under the preceding paragraph where it says that cargo can be picked up before, during, or after the transport moves. The explanation offered (bridging can be after a transport moves) is already covered - cargo can be picked up after a transport moves.

    • So what happens when a transport moves into an enemy-occupied sea zone? It must conduct combat. It says this clearly in the rules, even though it doesn’t have an attack value. If it survives and has cargo, it can unload. And under battleships it once again says that in an amphibious assault, for an adjacent enemy-occupied sea zone, combat must ensue and the enemy units must be defeated before transports can unload units. It doesn’t say that transports can then unload or load and unload.

    • It says the same thing in the transports section on how they fight. The rules say, for amphibious assaults, that cargo-laden transports must engage in combat before the amphibious assault can occur if the adjacent sea zone is enemy-occupied. After combat, it says that the transport can unload assaulting land units if the sea zone is cleared. Notably, it doesn’t also say it can load and unload. And if the sea zone isn’t cleared, you must retreat.

    So to me, it’s clear that bridging was intended to just cover the fact that a transport is the only unit in the game that can be involved in the combat movement phase without actually moving (again, other than anti-aircraft guns). And it’s also clear that you could only load in a friendly sea zone, since the very moment you enter an enemy-controlled sea zone, you have to conduct combat, and then the only options for the transport are either a) retreat, or b) unload.

    Regarding the evolution of the game, there have been other changes to movement related to hostile sea zones: subs can move through hostile sea zones, or even end their turn in hostile sea zones. And you can build in a sea zone containing enemy naval units and make it a hostile sea zone. Interestingly, I couldn’t find the notion of a “hostile sea zone” in the A&A Classic Second Edition rules because, to me, the concept didn’t exist. A territory or sea-zone was either friendly-occupied, friendly-controlled, enemy-occupied, or enemy-controlled. I think the notion of a hostile sea zone emerged because sea zones aren’t really ‘controlled’ if they’re empty, and, as said earlier, in the original game there was no allowance for units of opposing sides to end a turn in the same sea zone or territory. Once this could happen, we needed a way to characterize these sea zones, and calling them hostile made the most sense.

    And as it was already pointed out, the Global 1940 exception for allowing transports to load on the turn that war is declared is evidence that, in any other case, this move is not allowed.

    To end, I’ll add that i also think it’s odd that a single dd can disrupt an amphibious assault. Odd, but not unfair, illogical, or contrary to the original spirit of the game. So to me, the original rules and those that follow are pretty consistent about bridging, and when and how transports load units for amphibious assaults.


  • 2020 2018 2017 '16 '15 TripleA

    So, when I was putting the rules back last night, I discovered another document: Rules Clarifications from General M. Bradley, Supreme GameMaster. It’s dated 1991; the game manual was dated 1986. Note that the rules are second edition and says that both transport and amphibious assault rules have changed (presumably since the first edition). So it’s possible that the OP was using First edition rules? To be honest I’ve never seen those, although now I’m curious…

    So in the rules clarifications, there’s no specific clarity on whether a transport can load in a hostile or enemy-occupied sea zone. But it does say that bridging is as the OP said: you can bridge with a transport after it moves. So I was wrong on that front.

    But, it does say again that for an amphibious assault the zone must be cleared before a transport can unload units. It doesn’t say or load and then unload units.

    There does seem to be some evolution of thought from the 2nd edition rules to the rules clarification. In the 2nd edition rules, there is an example of units moving from Japan to Manchuria and the transport could do so “without ever leaving the sea zone”, which suggests that it would have started the move there, because in the paragraph before, it states in bold caps that a transport’s move is over once it unloads. But then in the clarification, it says that the transport can move before bridging.

    Also, in the 2nd edition rules, under the section “how they fight”, for amphibious assaults, it says:

    “If you are launching such an attack and the sea zone adjacent to the target area is enemy-occupied, then your naval force including your cargo-laden transports must engage in in combat before the amphibious assault can occur”.

    To me this suggests that the transports had to have been loaded prior to the battle, not after, and such a move has to be done in a friendly sea zone, not an enemy-occupied one.

    Anyways, hope I’m not putting anyone to sleep - I just find this issue really interesting!

    L


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Can we continue to play now ? 😖 😖 😖 😖



  • @freh said in A&A Global 1940: Amphibious Assaults, Bridging, and Sea Zones that Start the Turn with Hostile Ships:

    Also, in the 2nd edition rules, under the section “how they fight”, for amphibious assaults, it says:

    “If you are launching such an attack and the sea zone adjacent to the target area is enemy-occupied, then your naval force including your cargo-laden transports must engage in in combat before the amphibious assault can occur”.

    To me this suggests that the transports had to have been loaded prior to the battle, not after, and such a move has to be done in a friendly sea zone, not an enemy-occupied one.

    The matter at hand is not if a transport can make combat, then bridge (that is make combat, then load, then offload). This has been officially clarified as not allowed (and, in my opinion, it has always been fairly clear it is impossible).

    The question is if a transport that started its turn into or just moved into a hostile sea zone can load, then make combat, then offload.

    In my opinion, missing a statement that units cannot load in hostile sea zones, this should be allowed for units that have done nothing (units starting in hostile sea zones (which can happen with optional rules or under the 3rd Edition rules)). Therefore, the matter left would be whether or not a sea unit that is blocked by enemy units from moving any more is also blocked from loading.

    We are waiting for Larry… I find it quite amazing that, after a quarter of a century, and how many games played, in which this would have been relevant, this matter is yet to be sorted out.


  • Official Q&A

    OK, I have an official answer. It was never Larry’s intention that transports in Classic should be able to load in a hostile sea zone, but the rules as written do not reflect that intention. However, he’s not going to revise an FAQ for a game that’s been around for as long as Classic has and is now out of print for something this minor.

    The bottom line is that in Classic, per the rules, you can load transports in a hostile sea zone during combat movement, though this was not intended. This ruling does not apply to any other A&A game besides Classic.


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