Chinese Civil War



  • Hello everyone! I’m new to the forums and I wanted to introduce myself by sharing with you my setup for the Chinese Civil War. Please tell me what you make of it and enjoy!

    NOTE: The comments made up till the setup have regarded the original setup, which has been removed. Comments about the posted setup are below it and on the following page.

    The setup has been posted below. Rule changes are made directly on the setup



  • This post is deleted!

  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I think that something needs to be changed in either the Winning the Game section or the Capitals section because in their current form they affect each other in a way which could have significant consequences for game play, and more specifically for the strategy of the Communist player.

    The Winning the Game section says “The Communists win if they control all of mainland China (not including Formosa) or if the Nationalist capital has been Taiwan (Formosa) for 4 rounds of play.” The potential problem is the “or” part of the sentence because the Capitals section says “The Nationalist capital is Nanking, located in Kiangsi. If Kiangsi falls, the Nationalist’s capital will move to Taiwan until Kiangsi is liberated.” Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but it sounds as if this means that the Communists can actually ignore most of China and instead can win simply by concentrating all of their forces on Kiangsi, capturing it and holding it for four rounds.

    You’re quite correct when you say that “Control of capitals vital for success as well as propaganda”, but keep in mind that Chiang Kai-shek didn’t end up controlling Formosa as a political objective in and of itself; he ended up in Formosa because he lost mainland China to Mao Tse-tung and had to retreat there, for similar reasons to why the British retreated to the UK at Dunkirk when the Allies were losing western Europe to Germany in 1940.



  • @CWO-Marc
    Thanks very much for the feedback! Anything to improve this and future setups. I understand what you mean about the capitals, their value in the game, and the issue with a simple Communist victory. I’ll get back to you with updated rules. Btw, are you interested in playing this setup?



  • This post is deleted!

  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    It’s been ages since I’ve had any time to actually play A&A, so I was looking at your rules just out of curiosity rather than out of potential interest in playing the set-up. The part I mentioned previously caught my eye because it looked like a potential way for the Communist player to win by doing something which disregarded the way the game was (apparently) intended to be played, and I was wondering whether it actually was your intention or not.

    I’ve had a quick look at what Wikipedia says about the Chinese Civil War, and it doesn’t seem as though it was a conflict over control “all of mainland China” (though that’s what the Communists ultimately got out of it). It looks more as though it was fought in the eastern half of the country, with the overall course of the war being summed up by these four sequential maps:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War#/media/File:Chaing_Kai-shek’s_Strategy_1947.PNG

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War#/media/File:Communist_Offensives_September_through_November_1948.PNG

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War#/media/File:Communist_Offensives_November_1948_-_January_1949.PNG

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War#/media/File:Communist_Offensives_April_-_October_1949.PNG

    I’m therefore wondering if your setup and rules are meant to reflect the course and objectives of the actual Chinese Civil War, or whether they’re basically aiming to apply the general A&A global mechanics to a game that’s set entirely in China. The strong emphasis placed on capitals sounds directly inspired by A&A’s victory cities and winning conditions, but I’m not sure that the actual Chinese Civil War put that much importance on capitals. The post-WWII Communist Revolution was basically a continuation of an on-and-off conflict dating back to the founding of the Chinese Republic, prior to WWI, and the subsequent warlord era, and to the initial subjugation of the warlords by the Nationalists and the Communists (who were originally on the same side), then to the initial civil war between those two groups (which got interrupted by the Sino-Japanese War, which eventually became WWII in the Asia-Pacific Theatre). During all that time, China had several cities which were actual or de facto capitals, with faction X controlling city Y, and I don’t think the control of any specific city was decisive in and of itself. The same thing happened in WWII: the Japanese managed to get control of the major cities, all the ports, and many of the railroad lines, but the countryside (and the western two-thirds of the country overall) remained out of their grasp. And on the Chinese side, the loss of the major eastern cities wasn’t fatal: the Nationalists relocated to Chunking, and the Communists remained pretty much where they had ended up at the end of the Long March, in a hard-to-reach area of northern China. So I guess that’s why I’m wondering if the emphasis on capitals sounds like a holdover from the A&A rules rather than something arising from the actual objectives of the conflict between the Nationalists and the Communists.



  • I see what your getting at CWO Marc and I agree with you about it. Looking back, I honestly notice that this setup has quite a few areas that are either undeveloped in terms of relation to the actual conflict or lean heavily on set Axis and Allies rules, for example capitals. I don’t really think there is much that I can do to improve on this except for a mass revision and personalization of the rules, which I am considering. I have really appreciated your feedback on this setup, and if you have any ideas for what I should do next with it, please let me know!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Well they really didn’t fight each other during WW2 due to Japan invasion. So I don’t see how US can be involved. Maybe I missed something.
    Depends on what you are going for. If WW2 time is involved then you need to add besides US, USSR, Japan and Peasants. I’d have the city’s as a another territory to conquer.



  • @GEN-MANSTEIN
    If you are talking about the United States Aid, I have based that off of the financial and partial aid that the US provided to the Nationalists during the resumption of the civil war after WW2 ended. The second setup I intend which improves on this one, which is going to include Japan, the US, and possibly Russia in limited ways. If you have any ideas on something I should include, please feel free to share!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    One thing which could be a helpful source of ideas for you would be to look at the threads below. A few years ago, some ideas were tossed around on the forum for various A&A “mini-games” called Axis & Allies Express, most of them them based on local campaigns of WWII (including one in China). I found the threads by using the Search function to look for “Express” and I think I managed to get all of them. I didn’t take the time to re-read the threads, but as I recall their game objectives and victory conditions reflected the specific aims of the historical campaigns on which they were based.

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/13553/axis-and-allies-express-series

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/13559/axis-and-allies-express-links

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/13555/axis-and-allies-express-operation-exporter

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/13554/axis-and-allies-express-china-campaigns

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/13582/axis-and-allies-express-japanese-campaigns

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/13512/axis-allies-express-east-africa

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/13586/axis-and-allies-express-2nd-battle-of-el-alamein

    Similarly. you might get some useful inspiration from the three official A&A games which are operational/tactical in scope rather than strategic: D-Day, Guadalcanal and Battle of the Bulge. All involve shorter time-frames than the Communist Revolution in China, which lasted a couple of years, but they’re conceptually closer to it than WWII as a whole and thus potentially better models of how to design rules for such a conflict.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Well there was 50,000 US troops there and where in Hupeh and Shandong. Maybe have 1 US Inf be placed per turn in 1 of those territories.
    The LL or Military aid was 4.4 billion. So see what tonnage that was and figure out your Aid to KMT. Plus there was over 5 million Peasants that were part of the up rising for the CPC so maybe most Inf just pop up in territories plus a very small income to buy art, and a tank.



  • @GEN-MANSTEIN
    Thank you for your suggestions! I have created a second setup that includes similar mechanics. I will post it after some trial tests. Please tell me what you think of it when I do!



  • @CWO-Marc
    Thank you for your suggestions also! I’ll take a look at those links and see what I can use for the second setup.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Sure I’ll check it out

    Be nice to break down that 4.4 mil and see what was built or bought. Then break it down for LL per turn or extra money and then up to KMT to buy right pieces ? Maybe



  • All right, I have finished writing and test playing the second Chinese Civil War scenario. There may still be a few kinks in the gameplay that I’m unaware of, so please look it over, play if you can, and let me know how the setup can still be improved.



  • Chinese Civil War Third Edition with Revised Rules

    Order of Play:
    Communist Party of China
    Kuomintang Government
    Kuomintang Aligned Warlords

    Winning the Game:
    Either side most complete either the military or political victory objective in order to win the game.
    Military Objective: Eliminate all the opponents units on Mainland China, not including Formosa and Hainan
    Political Objective: Control 6 cities, including your capital

    Cities and Capitals
    Some territories in the game contain cities. Cities have no impact on winning the game, however they provide the controlling power some benefits.
    List of Cities:
    Nanking, located in Kiangsi
    Yan’an, located in Shensi
    Shanghai, located in Kiangsu
    Yantai, located in Shantung
    Shenyang, located in Manchuria
    Beijing, located in Jehol
    Chongqing, located in Kweichow
    Taipei, located in Formosa

    Cities provide the controller with an additional 1 IPC per city.

    Capitals: Two cities in the game are capital cities. The Kuomintang capital is Nanking in Kiangsi. The Communist Party of China’s capital is Yan’an in Shensi. Each capital provides a Propaganda bonus when it is conquered by the opposing power. This is a bonus of 3 IPC’s to the controlling power’s income until the capital is recaptured.

    Kuomintang Defection:
    Every second turn, the Communist Party of China player has the option to replace their purchase phase with Kuomintang Defection. If they choose to do this, the Communist Party may choose one Kuomintang territory, must be containing units, that borders a Communist Party controlled territory. The Communist Party of China player may roll 1 dice and the same number of Kuomintang units will instantly become Communist Chinese. They can then be distributed in any fashion among Communist Party territories.
    NOTE: When Nationalist units defect, they most do so in this order:
    Infantry
    Artillery (no more infantry remain)
    Mech (no more artillery remain)
    Tanks (no more mech remain)

    Historical Reference: During the course of the Chinese Civil War when the Communists had the upper hand, Kuomintang troops would defect form the army and join the Communist military.

    Peasant Recruitment:
    On the purchase phase, the Communist Party of China is able to do a Peasant Recruitment. This is done by the Communist Party of China placing two infantry in a territory they control.

    Historical Reference: The Communists were able to recruit a number of farmers and other peasants to fight for their cause during the civil war.

    Kuomintang Aligned Warlords:
    There were multiple cliques and warlords who supported the Kuomintang during the course of the war. The Kuomintang Aligned Warlords have no capital. They may not complete the victory objectives. When the Warlords capture a territory, it’ll instantly fall under Kuomintang control, not Warlord control. The Warlords may only purchase infantry and artillery, which can be placed in any territory they control.

    United States Aid:
    During the civil war, the United States government provided the Kuomintang with over $4.43 billion in military aid. To represent this, The United States Aid, controlled by the Kuomintang Government, will have it’s own income which accumulates over time. Starting at 3 IPCs, it’ll add 3 each turn. During the Kuomintang’s purchase phase, they may tap into this income for additional IPCs. When this is done, decrease the income by the number of IPCs used by the Kuomintang. The income will need to re-accumulate used IPCs.

    National Objectives:
    Kuomintang Government
    3 IPCs if the Kuomintang controls all original territories
    Theme: Preservation of land from Communist control
    4 IPCs if the Kuomintang controls a naval base
    Theme: Remaining open to receiving foreign aid
    5 IPCs if the Kuomintang controls both Kiangsi and Shensi
    Theme: Control of capitals for use as propaganda value and morale

    Communist Party of China
    3 IPCs if the Communists control three or more Kuomintang territories.
    Theme: The “Liberation” of Chinese land
    5 IPCs if the Communist Party of China controls Manchuria
    Theme: Honouring the gift of land from a fellow communist country
    (Russia slowly moved out of Manchuria after WW2, allowing the Communists to move and control the land)
    8 IPCs if the Communist Party of China controls 12 of the 18 Chinese mainland territories
    Theme: Success of the “War of Liberation”

    Kuomintang Aligned Warlords
    2 IPCs of the Kuomintang Aligned Warlords control all their original territories.

    Setup:
    Communist Party of China, controls Manchuria, Jehol, Shantung, Anhwe, Chahar, Hopei, and Shensi. Income: 10 IPCs
    Manchuria: 3 infantry, 2 artillery, 2 mech, 2 tanks, minor factory
    Jehol: 2 infantry
    Shantung: 2 infantry, 2 artillery
    Hopei: 1 infantry
    Anhwe: 2 infantry
    Hunan: 2 infantry
    Shensi: 2 infantry, 2 artillery, minor factory

    Kuomintang Government, controls Suiyuan, Chahar, Kiangsi, Kiangsu, Kweichow, Yunnan, Formosa, and Hainan. Income: 9 IPCs
    Suiyuan: 1 infantry
    Chahar: 2 infantry
    Kiangsi: 3 infantry, 2 artillery, 2 mech, minor factory, naval base
    Kiangsu: 3 infantry, 2 artillery, 2 mech, minor factory, naval base
    Kweichow: 2 infantry, 1 artillery
    Yunnan: 1 infantry
    Formosa: 1 infantry, 1 naval base
    Hainan: 1 infantry
    SZ 20: 2 cruisers

    Kuomintang Aligned Warlords, controls the rest of mainland China, Income 5
    Kwangsi: 1 infantry
    Szechwan: 1 infantry, 1 artillery
    Sikang: 1 infantry
    Tsinghai: 1 infantry
    Kansu: 1 infantry

    Unit Restrictions:
    Only infantry, artillery, mech infantry, tanks, transports, destroyers, and cruisers can be built.

    The Kuomintang Government uses their infantry and American units
    The Communist Party of China uses Italian units and upside roundels
    The Kuomintang Aligned Warlords use ANZAC infantry and artillery and grey chips for roundels



  • @GEN-MANSTEIN
    I was unfortunately unable to break down that 4.4 mil. I think what I do have for the United States Aid could be a workable solution.



  • @CWO-Marc
    I looked at some of the links that you sent me. I made an attempt to adapt the setup rules to what you suggested, so please tell me how I did!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    They had a decent fleet off China. They also had transports to ship up to Manchuria from US. Plus they flew KMT troops to Manchuria. That’s where most action was



  • @GEN-MANSTEIN
    I’ll add in some more for the Nationalists and Communists, get some more naval involvement. Possibly some kind of convoy system from the Us to China could work, I have considered that. For the airlift, however, that was directly after WW2. Japan still had forces in Manchuria, which were used by the Allies to slow communist advancement and secure Nationalist control. Russia was pulling out of Manchuria as well, allowing the Communist Chinese to occupy the land vacated. I have been considering doing a Manchuria phase for this setup, however, I don’t yet know how it’ll affect the Communist forces.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    You sure on that flying in ? I thought I read they flew them into Manchuria.

    Ok they flew them in November of 46. So you are starting right after that for game.



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  • @GEN-MANSTEIN
    Correct, however like I posted earlier, I am considering adding on a Manchuria phase for the game. Just uncertain how it’ll impact Communist China’s strength. Btw, are you interested in playing this? If so, please give me a rundown of your game. If not, no problem at all!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Didn’t plan on playing. You just use g40
    Map ?


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