WW2 Path to Victory - Feedback Thread


  • I have to reiterate: The DOW-situation between Japan and Russia is just simply bad. What I can see there’s a 100 % RDOW before turn 6. Japan has no incentive whatsoever to waste land-units up north until the RDOW comes.

    I think the construction in BM3 is so much better.

  • '20 '16

    @trulpen said in WW2 Path to Victory - Feedback Thread:

    I have to reiterate: The DOW-situation between Japan and Russia is just simply bad. What I can see there’s a 100 % RDOW before turn 6. Japan has no incentive whatsoever to waste land-units up north until the RDOW comes.

    I think the construction in BM3 is so much better.

    I haven’t noticed any difference. What is the difference? And how do you see it affecting games?


  • There’s a big difference.

    P2V: “Mongolia: If Japan declares war on Russia, Mongolian territories and units will automatically turn Russian at the end of Japan’s turn.”

    BM3: “An additional 2 PUs per each “open” Lend-Lease lane, when Russia is at war with European Axis, if Japan has also declared war on Russia” along with the original Soviet-Mongolian Defence Pact.

    In effect this means that a JDOW on Russia activates Mongolia for the russians. Strong incentive for Japan not to. It also means that Russia won’t negate any income-increase when DOW on Japan, which makes a lot less of incentive not to.

    I can simply say that in my handful of games the effect is not what the creators wished for. Very anachronistic.


  • I’d like the BM3-construction to be active in P2V as well. It made for a lot more tension up north, both Russia and Japan hesitating to DOW and wanting the other nation to do it.

  • '19 '17 '16

    I’m not sure about your logic here, trulpen. In both cases there is a pretty decent disincentive to DOW. I suppose with P2V, Japan can nullify the Pacific lend lease offsetting activating Mongolia.

  • '20 '19

    @simon33 I agree with trulpen…with the extra Mic and extra income it only makes sense for Russia to declare once the war becomes general. North Manch is unaccessable from an amphib landing and if you can link up with the chinese stack…usually 14-16 inf and a fighter…then that is a major land army for the limited japanese army to deal with.

    There is no penalty for the russians…just losing access to 8 inf. For the japanese you are probably going to be down 4-6 income until the time comes to build enough to eliminate them…and all in a theatre opposite to where you really want to be concentrating in the south.

  • '20 '16

    @trulpen said in WW2 Path to Victory - Feedback Thread:

    There’s a big difference.

    P2V: “Mongolia: If Japan declares war on Russia, Mongolian territories and units will automatically turn Russian at the end of Japan’s turn.”

    BM3: “An additional 2 PUs per each “open” Lend-Lease lane, when Russia is at war with European Axis, if Japan has also declared war on Russia” along with the original Soviet-Mongolian Defence Pact.

    In effect this means that a JDOW on Russia activates Mongolia for the russians. Strong incentive for Japan not to. It also means that Russia won’t negate any income-increase when DOW on Japan, which makes a lot less of incentive not to.

    I can simply say that in my handful of games the effect is not what the creators wished for. Very anachronistic.

    I couldn’t see it in your post, but I did some digging, and I think this is what you don’t like:

    "RUSSIA

    REVISED OBJECTIVE - Lend Lease: Russia no longer receives a 2 PU boost from an unprovoked Japanese declaration of war. Instead the Mongolians automatically turn Russian as aforesaid."

    I wasn’t aware of that change to the 2 PU boost. Good to know!


  • Hey guys. Been following your conversation on the Russia/Japan political situation. Interesting stuff!

    A couple of observations. I agree with Trulpen that the dynamic in the Far East between Russia and Japan is much different in PTV than it is in BM3, and that there is a greater likelihood of war between the two countries earlier in the game in PTV. . . . But this is not because of the Lend Lease Rules.

    In PTV, there is actually a greater disincentive for Russia to declare war than in BM3.

    There is a convoy zone in SZ 5 (which does not exist in BM3). A single Japanese sub in sz 5 will deprive Russia of an average of 4 PUs per turn (2 from the lost National Objective, and 2 average from convoy blockade rolls), with a possibility of up to 6 PUs lost (depending on how the convoy blockade rolls go down).

    In PTV, Russia also enjoys an added bonus of waiting for Japan to declare war on it. . . a guarantee of 8 additional infantry. In BM3, the question of who declared war on whom has no effect on the disposition of the Mongolian infantry.

    The reason the dynamic in the far east seems different isn’t because of how the NOs are structured. In fact, if we imported the BM3 political/NO rules exactly (with all of their added complexity), the dynamic would be pretty much the same. The reason Russia declares war more often and earlier in PTV is because it can. . . the factory and Russia’s added income make a meaningful front against Japan possible.

    Changing the NOs won’t change that reality.


  • No, it’s not only the NOs. It’s also about the activation of Mongolia. It’s included in the equation.

    Good point about the convoy disruption of z5. Very relevant.

    Anyway, my main point is that Japan has no real incentive To DOW on Russia. Sure, pushing Russia back and getting a little income-boost is a good thing, but not rational regarding ROI.

    Japan has a lot more important objectives south regarding controlling the DEI, pushing for Calcutta and suppressing the pesky chinese. Also having to contest the Pacific.

    Japan is happy to have peace in the north for many turns, i e until it has full domination in the south and west.

    Sure, Russia would love for Japan to DOW, but knows it won’t happen. So if there is to be conflict, Russia has to step up.

    That is something that happens early in P2V (turn 3-4). Not because of income-issues, but because of the situation of putting pressure on Japan from all sides.

    In BM3 I’ve experienced a lot more ambiguity and quite often just the raw tension up north. I’d say a more interesting balance.

    Historically Russia rather shifted a lot of troops west when realizing/knowing Japan wouldn’t make an offensive into Russia. That happens sometimes in OOB and BM3, but not in P2V for various reasons, some of which have been pointed out already.


  • I most changes with P2V. Makes for quite a different and in many aspects interesting game. For me though, this thing we speak about is a disappointment. Anyway, it’s just a tiny part of everything that’s going on.

  • '19 '17 '16

    I’m inclined to agree with regularkid’s point about the mIC in Siberia* being the main change which has affected the dynamic. Without much game experience to back that up though.

    • I would question the historical accuracy of this - wouldn’t the factories have been in the western Siberia, not the eastern. Are there even any roads in this part of the country?
  • '19 '17 '16

    I don’t like markdown. That was supposed to be the explanation of the asterisk, rather than a bullet point.


  • @simon33 when Adam and I made the map, we initially play-tested with the factory being in Amur (i.e. Vladivostok), but this was too easy for Japan to neutralize. So we moved it up to Siberia, for gameplay purposes. It is also justifiable historically, since a significant portion of Soviet war production was carried out by forced labor in Siberian gulags, for example.

    One other circumstance, besides the factory, which changes the Russian/Japanese dynamic in PTV is splitting of Manchuria into northern and southern territories. It is easier for Japan to defend Manchuria as a single territory in Balanced Mod, than it is to defend Northern Manchuria against incursions in PTV. Indeed, Northern Manchuria is often left empty in PTV because putting units there would put them too much out-of-position to pursue other objectives.

  • '19 '17 '16

    More near Timguska or east of Vladivostock for the Soviet war production though?

    I think the factory could work in Sakha or Buryatia but did you want it on the coast so it could be taken out more easily?

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    @simon33 this is counting peas as german would say if something is not a 100% accurate…

  • 2022 2021 '20

    From my perspective of 2 PTV games, I agree that the dynamic is very different, and significantly favoring an early RDOW. There factory allows Russia to build offensive units early in the game and attack. There is virtually no downside, maybe the convoy loses 2 extra ipcs, but it forces J to engage far to the north at a time when it is still attempting to consolidate in the south. RDOW is probably bad for Russia individually, but opening another front is important to the allies overall strategy. Japan is a monster in this game, with significant positional advantages, and this is a good tactic to reduce that.
    In the BM3, game losing additional lend lease dollars was a big deterrent for Russia. If the goal is to prevent early conflict between the two countries, there needs to be more incentive for Russia to stay neutral. However, i think because of the other changes in the game, the existing scenario allows for more balanced play.

    I never thought of this game as an accurate reflection of world war II operations, but an interesting strategy game with an asymmetric map and individual goals, so not bothered by historical deviations. Heck, most games don’t even involve a Pearl Harbor attack…

  • '19 '17 '16

    Regarding tech, one thing I hate about it is that it isn’t directed. Doesn’t it make more sense to be able to specify which technology is being researched?

  • '19 '17

    @simon33 Perhaps it makes more sense that way, but then tech would become very predictable, you’d research the same order of tech for each nation from game to game. Doesn’t sound interesting.

  • '20 '16

    @Adam514 Directed, but not predictable, because the breakthroughs would still be on a dice roll.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @Adam514 said in WW2 Path to Victory - Feedback Thread:

    @simon33 Perhaps it makes more sense that way, but then tech would become very predictable, you’d research the same order of tech for each nation from game to game. Doesn’t sound interesting.

    I disagree with this argument. It may be more predictable than with random tech but no one is saying that the game is too predictable without tech even though the tech tree is therefore 100% predictable.

  • '19 '17

    @simon33 Maybe predictable isn’t the right word. I guess the term is repetitive. There will be a clear order of good to bad techs for each nation, which removes choice from the player.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @Adam514 said in WW2 Path to Victory - Feedback Thread:

    @simon33 Maybe predictable isn’t the right word. I guess the term is repetitive. There will be a clear order of good to bad techs for each nation, which removes choice from the player.

    I understood what you were getting at, I just don’t think you are looking at it the right way. It’s like saying that there will be an optimal path without tech so therefore the game isn’t fun without tech. Which is clearly ridiculous. Maybe I’ve overstated the point there but I don’t understand why you are defending undirected tech. Do you like playing with tech? Can’t remember ever seeing you use it.

  • '19 '17

    @simon33 I’m saying an obvious choice is not an interesting choice, so it would be a waste of tech implementation if it were added in that manner.

    Other games have fun tech like in the 1914 map. I don’t play with tech in G40 variants though.

  • '20 '16

    @Adam514 Who is to say what is obvious? Is it obvious that Japan should attack the ANZAC destroyer and transport? That Germany should attack one, or both, UK navies? The answer differs for different players.

    Directed tech allows me to choose what I want to do. I may fail, and lose my Japanese destroyer for nothing, or I may take out 2 boats and still have a destroyer left over. But at least it was my choice.

    Undirected tech is like trying to attack Paris, and not knowing if I’m actually attacking Morocco. It makes no sense, strategically.

    Directed tech, success determined by a die roll, fits the game, is not predictable, but is strategically variable.

  • 2022 2021 '20

    My experience in playing wargames over 40 years is there are two main camps regarding the philosophy of wargaming. One camp likes a game more based on strategy and predictability and the other camp prefers more randomness and thus want things more dice oriented. You may call it the chess people and the gambling people.

    Those people who fall into the predictable camp want directed technology. Tech all be itself is already a risk because I may or may not obtain it. I am already taking a risk going for Tech, why would I have to risk what type of tech I am going to receive? This just makes the game more random and lessens the strategy aspect of the game. This group, if they had their way, would pick a purchased Tech approach which you see in some games. I pay X and I get Y. This makes the game all about strategy decisions and not dice rolling.

    The gambling people want every game to be different. They either want, or are willing to have, bad dice in one game and good dice in another game to achieve their goal of randomness. They want Tech to be very good if they are lucky or spend a bunch of money on nothing, or of little value, if dice go bad. The “newness” of every game is more important than the finding and playing of a predictable boring strategy game.

    For me, as I want as little dice as possible in any game, I prefer the predictability of knowing what I am doing is going to work assuming my strategy is valid. I may lose the game but if I lose it is because my strategy is flawed and the choices I made did not work rather than I just rolled poorly. Conversely if I win it is because of my good strategy and good decisions rather than just getting lucky dice.

    Knowing I am in the predictable camp I NEVER play with technology because all the Axis and Allies technology solutions are very random in nature and are thus not attractive to me. If a technology policy had to be implemented, I would propose directed research AND the technology does not go into effect till the Turn after it is discovered. Both limit the randomness of technology.

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