Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB



  • Plenty of good ideas here. 🙂

    Here comes some thoughts and the preliminary bid suggestion. This is still up for debate, since some choices might be a bit fishy. I really like subs and figs though. 😀

    sub 62
    sub 91
    sub 98
    sub 106
    sub 110
    fig Scotland
    fig Malta

    I like the idea of bolstering the chinese with an inf/art or two, but in OOB when there’s no guerilla, I’d say it’s a bit of a waste. China will be run over like a trolley by a train. The sub in z62 is a beauty though. Very much dissuades that atleast that attack. I considered putting something in z37, but just don’t think it’s worth it since there are better options.

    With a lot of UK fleet in the Atlantic being able to significantly control the ocean and specifically z91 and z110, US can invest a bit in transports, but may focus more heartily on the Pacific in order to try to subdue a pesky, growing Japan. US should try to avoid building war ships in the Atlantic, if possible. If JDOW1 goes down under these circumstances, I believe it should be welcomed. I may very well underestimate the strength of that opening though being no expert.

    I considered bolstering UK with land units in Africa, but simply make priority of fleet. Subs are cheap and really good in these positions. Regarding z106 and z110 I don’t want to choose between them, but rather have both. The beauty of a sub in z110 instead of a des, is that if Germany attacks, there’s more risk of costly causalties, since eventual scrambled air won’t hit any subs, and also if there’s a lot of over-force, the sub may simply be saved by submerge. With the fig in Scotland, hitting both z110 and z111 should be more or less undoable.

    The Scotland fig is the top priority in the bid, so I don’t believe that one is really under scrutiny. The fig in Malta though I believe is rather debatable. The idea is to make a cheap taranto possible. UK should be able to save both the ac and cr while still have killer odds.

    I don’t worry at all about an early Sea Lion. I can even taunt it, hoping Germany takes the bait. I believe that’s one of the biggest mistakes Germany can do in the early game. Especially in OOB when Russia may get extra strong from territories in ME and Africa. Germany can simply not afford to ignore Russia. That’s my firm belief, but, yes, I have been wrong before. 😉


  • '16

    @trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    Plenty of good ideas here. 🙂

    Here comes some thoughts and the preliminary bid suggestion. This is still up for debate, since some choices might be a bit fishy. I really like subs and figs though. 😀

    sub 62
    sub 91
    sub 98
    sub 106
    sub 110
    fig Scotland
    fig Malta

    I like the idea of bolstering the chinese with an inf/art or two, but in OOB when there’s no guerilla, I’d say it’s a bit of a waste. China will be run over like a trolley by a train. The sub in z62 is a beauty though. Very much dissuades that atleast that attack. I considered putting something in z37, but just don’t think it’s worth it since there are better options.

    With a lot of UK fleet in the Atlantic being able to significantly control the ocean and specifically z91 and z110, US can invest a bit in transports, but may focus more heartily on the Pacific in order to try to subdue a pesky, growing Japan. US should try to avoid building war ships in the Atlantic, if possible. If JDOW1 goes down under these circumstances, I believe it should be welcomed. I may very well underestimate the strength of that opening though being no expert.

    I considered bolstering UK with land units in Africa, but simply make priority of fleet. Subs are cheap and really good in these positions. Regarding z106 and z110 I don’t want to choose between them, but rather have both. The beauty of a sub in z110 instead of a des, is that if Germany attacks, there’s more risk of costly causalties, since eventual scrambled air won’t hit any subs, and also if there’s a lot of over-force, the sub may simply be saved by submerge. With the fig in Scotland, hitting both z110 and z111 should be more or less undoable.

    The Scotland fig is the top priority in the bid, so I don’t believe that one is really under scrutiny. The fig in Malta though I believe is rather debatable. The idea is to make a cheap taranto possible. UK should be able to save both the ac and cr while still have killer odds.

    I don’t worry at all about an early Sea Lion. I can even taunt it, hoping Germany takes the bait. I believe that’s one of the biggest mistakes Germany can do in the early game. Especially in OOB when Russia may get extra strong from territories in ME and Africa. Germany can simply not afford to ignore Russia. That’s my firm belief, but, yes, I have been wrong before. 😉

    All around solid bid I believe. If the Malta fighter is debatable then swap for a tank,art for the tobruk take. I was thinking about stopping J1 as well but short of a BB in 37 I don’t think there are many options better than the sz62 sub.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    50 IPC, to try something different with a bit more pressure on Japan and minimum in Europe. If AndrewAAGamer would like to give a try in a non-league game I’d be willing.

    SZ 98: 1 sub
    SZ 91: 1 sub
    Alexandria: 1 infantry
    Yunnan: 1 infantry
    Moscow: 1 fighter
    Volgograd: 1 fighter
    Amur, Sakha, Buryatia: 1 artillery a piece (12 IPC)



  • It’s definitely interesting with the, as I understand it aim to control the eastern provinces and also being able to help out the chilese with flexible air.

    The only backside I can see is that Russia is not at war in the beginning. Japan can easily abstain from DOWing, although in OOB there’s no direct cost to it. But it also goes for the pressure on east Russia. Not sure it’s worth 12 IPC to dissuade that?

    On the other hand it’s usually an easy income boost for Japan while denying Russia important income. Most important is to defend Moscow, if possible, and it might be better served with bids for the Atlantic and Med, since that should give UK resources to send up figs for the defense of Moscow from round 4.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    a carrier in 106 could be useful (Carrier replaces the 106 sub and malta fighter). Most likely he will skip 111 and then the fleet in 111 can join up with the carrier in iceland sea zone.

    However, he might decide to send 3 subs to 106 for decent odds. And BB and sub to 110


  • 2020

    Regarding @Omega1759 suggestion,
    Russia could R1 DOW on Japan. In the OOB game, this is not so bad for Russia as compared to the NO hit in BM3. Stack all air in Yunnan (3 ftr + 1 tac) + 1 inf bid + 4 starting inf and Yunnan should not fall. Best Japanese attack is 3 inf+1 art + 1 ftr + 1 tac+ 2 bmbr = 20-80% battle against.
    Couple that with the Far East forces and Japan is in a bind. The Chinese will be making ~ 12-15/round and the Far East force now requires a sizable blocking force to stop. Of course the Japanese can transport many units to the Amur and Korea, but that wastes their initial several turns. And Russia should be able to back away, if Japan goes all-in in the north, which ties up Japanese land forces that are needed elsewhere.

    The down side is that you don’t get to kill any Axis units immediately with this plan. The Far East units have to back away R1 from Amur or the combined might of the Japanese force will decimate them J1. Thus can’t attack Manchuria/Korea until R3 at earliest. Plus, this tempo move would give Japan time to send all a/c south to airblitz Chinese units near Yunnan, and be able to return north when they need to engage Amur. Japan will fight a tough battle against the Chinese and always worrying about their flanks. But have flexibility and interior lines of transport to possibly pull it off.

    This analysis is ignoring the strategic value of all this initial pressure. Japan is not getting in position for the DEI and not growing quickly in this plan. Any game that has a J3 DOW is typically a win for the Allies in the Pacific. So in the long run, this bid probably does sink the Japanese.

    What about the Germans?
    The British Home fleet is sunk, but probably Taranto was pulled off and Italy has only 1 transport. Africa and Egypt are safe. But the Weirmacht is running for Moscow. Turtle the main Russian force is best option. The Brits should be able to start Middle Earth and produce 6-9 fighters to support Moscow. India/Queensland are not threatened, so they can provide a few fighters as well. The US has time to build up for invasion fleet in Atlantic, or perhaps just shucks in fighters through Africa, while building up Pacific to sink IJN. The wildcard here is can you contain the German forces? Can they pivot and collect all the southern territories by G7-8, and put Moscow on lifesupport? IDK…

    The US can go all Atlantic, but I think that is a wasted opportunity and may let the Japanese go free. Put the Japanese down, defend Egypt and see what happens.


  • 2020

    That said. I like saving the British Fleet and attacking the Italians and Germans!! Probably go with the Atlantic bid



  • Those are very good points. I contemplated some of them, but not as thoroughly. Controlling Yunnan is actually awesome. Especially in OOB. The RDOW1 is also inconsequential in OOB, since it doesn’t carry any real draw-backs. The one mechanism interesting to protect is maybe the Soviet-Mongolian Defence Pact. This needs to be evaluated closer.

    So, we have two different approaches to the bid on the table. I’m clearly intrigued by both. If we’re to go for what I believe has the highest efficiency, that would be the Atlantic/ME-option. However, the 2 russian figs and 1-3 chinese inf does also carry clear strategic value and is not far behind.

    I wouldn’t invest in the northern stack though. It is very much sufficient with 12-18 inf and 2 aa to be able to hold off Japan. If Russia wants to be more aggressive it primarily needs air for skirmishes. Here I prefer that the russian stack rather supports an US landing in Korea, so I actually don’t see much need for offensive power of the stack.



  • On a note I prefer a russian fig from a chinese one. It’s nice with two figs for the chinese for skirmishes and defence and pretty cool with an expanded FLying Tigers, but it’s unfortunately rather inflexible in the sense that it’s permanently bound to chinese territories.

    There’s always the possibility for Japan to just skip China over and head with full force towards Calcutta. Not optimal for them, but likely better than taking on a losing fight for the control of Yunnan.



  • @trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    that would be the Atlantic/ME-option

    To avoid confusion: Meant Atlantic/Med.



  • My suggested alternative bid based on the suggestion from @Omega1759:

    sub 91
    sub 98
    fig Scotland
    art Hunan
    inf Yunnan
    fig Moscow
    fig Stalingrad
    1 IPC UK-EU


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    @trulpen I think the weakness with this bid is you are committed to stacking yunnan. If he does a j2 or even a j3 your bid definately is not the most bang for your bucks as it is difficult to hold yunnan j2 or j3



  • True, the Atlantic focus is a lot more flexible, but I like Japan having to make a huge effort. It draws away valuable resources from other areas.

    I haven’t evaluated what a likely J2- or J3-situation would look like (perhaps someone wants to help out here?). Spontaneously feels that stack will be immensely strong with a strong foundation of +20 inf, 2 tac and 4-6 fig.

    Japan does however have 21 planes at their disposal. It’s terrifying.

    I believe a key to this strategy is to be able to take out the Hunan-contingent C1 and then seriously threatening any intrusion of Kweichow and Hunan C2.



  • Of course also includes pressure on Kwangsi and FIC.



  • Sorry, not FIC, since China can’t go there. Only comes pressure when the brits enter Yunnan. That’s a clear weakness of this strategy.



  • It must be hard for Andrew to abstain from commenting. I would find it unbearable. 😁


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    The key to Allies having a chance in OOB is wear down the Axis air forces and to snip out Japanese land units from exchanges with numerous nations.

    While that’s happening, a strong force of UK fighters, US bombers/fighters, and a gradually stronger force of Anzac fighters act as a flexible force. A first pressure point is usually India, followed closely by Moscow, and finally the Middle East.

    Our options to reduce Axis air and Japanese ground troops.

    Adding infantry to Yunnan increase expected losses (must take territory) from 5 to 9 (4 IPC for 3 IPC). Then a soviet fighter takes this to 19.5 (10 IPC for 10 IPC), and a second Soviet fighter takes this to 36 IPC (16 IPC for 10 IPC). So here by spending 23 IPC you force commitment of Japanese bombers and will likely take 2 Japanese planes with you. This remains an attractive target for the Japanese, you definitely do not want to let these planes escape and get back to Moscow.

    Now, what are options to take down the German air force? Ideally, what we would do is to tempt the axis player in attacking both 110/111, and getting lift from two scrambles, hopefully trading 4 allied planes against 3-4 German planes (leaving 8-9 German planes on the map). Note that we need to retain enough air power for Taranto.

    In order to create further disruption, take the transport from 98 and land one infantry and on AA gun in Greece. This forces Italy or Germany to attack Greece, otherwise any remaining fighters left on a carrier can let the carrier perish first. Hopefully the remaining fleet in the med + Greece will destroy another 2 German planes, bringing them down to 6-7 planes.

    This reducing Axis air force business is critical because this air force is a force multiplier, forcing us to build huge navies and armies to invade the continent.

    In other words, in early rounds it’s OK to play Rocky balboa and lose 15 IPC of units for each 10 IPC of Axis air units.

    So stepping back on the priorities here.

    Sub in 98 is critical for Taranto.
    The sub in 91 really helps take out 96, we don’t want Italy to have 2 transports.

    We spend 23+12 to date so 41, have 9 IPC to spare.

    An extra infantry in Paris is causing 4 IPC additional losses, it’s not bad of a ROI and might encourage the Axis player to send the tactical bomber there to avoid a 1 in 200 chance of losing the battle.

    With the 6 IPC that remains, it would either be a sub in 110 (further pressure German R1 attack, potentially save the 106 ships), or a combination of one artillery in the soviet far east (to increase the offensive fear factor of this stack) + 2 IPC in the UK bank, allowing a 3 fighter purchase (very needed after the first round).



  • very interesting. kudos for the crew.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    Should have had my coffee, math above wrong:

    Two soviet fighters = 20 IPC
    Yunnan infantry = 3 IPC
    Two subs 98/91 = 12 IPC
    Scotland fighter = 10 IPC
    Paris: one infantry =3 IPC
    UK Europe: 2 IPC
    Total = 50 IPC


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    It’s definitely interesting with the, as I understand it aim to control the eastern provinces and also being able to help out the chilese with flexible air.

    The only backside I can see is that Russia is not at war in the beginning. Japan can easily abstain from DOWing, although in OOB there’s no direct cost to it. But it also goes for the pressure on east Russia. Not sure it’s worth 12 IPC to dissuade that?

    On the other hand it’s usually an easy income boost for Japan while denying Russia important income. Most important is to defend Moscow, if possible, and it might be better served with bids for the Atlantic and Med, since that should give UK resources to send up figs for the defense of Moscow from round 4.

    The point of the artillery is make the stack a more potent offensive force. That forces Japan to keep a bit more air force in the north. All the sudden this big defensive stack has decent offense potential. As others have mentioned, you can’t actually go on offense until the 3rd Russian turn, but moving back all the stack on R2 (when feasible) can change J2 plans and marginally help elsewhere. You can also do this without the artillery, but the fear factor isn’t the same :).

    By bidding two soviet fighters and sending them to Yunnan, it’s very likely going to prevent a J1. The key is whether there’s a way to create another distraction to prevent a J2 while causing sufficient losses. Only the Soviets or Chinese can create this distraction.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    Sorry, not FIC, since China can’t go there. Only comes pressure when the brits enter Yunnan. That’s a clear weakness of this strategy.

    Potentially reckless strategy, but spices things up:

    Add a mech infantry in Burma and attack the 2 Japanese infantry in Siam on UK Pacific 1.

    Japan is now in a situation where taking French Indochina cost them 10 IPC even without involving the US. Japan will also abstain from taking Philippines and US Naval and air has plenty of time to bail out to safety.

    UK Pacific and Anzac capture an extra 10 IPC between them.

    The major downside is that the US cannot attack until turn 4, which is an eternity for the allied side.

    If that is the path taken, the European side (both UK and Soviet) need to support India / put pressure elsewhere.

    I do not like passively waiting for Japan to take over, but it’s a beast, very hard to take down or even slow down.



  • @Omega1759 said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    @trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    It’s definitely interesting with the, as I understand it aim to control the eastern provinces and also being able to help out the chilese with flexible air.

    The only backside I can see is that Russia is not at war in the beginning. Japan can easily abstain from DOWing, although in OOB there’s no direct cost to it. But it also goes for the pressure on east Russia. Not sure it’s worth 12 IPC to dissuade that?

    On the other hand it’s usually an easy income boost for Japan while denying Russia important income. Most important is to defend Moscow, if possible, and it might be better served with bids for the Atlantic and Med, since that should give UK resources to send up figs for the defense of Moscow from round 4.

    The point of the artillery is make the stack a more potent offensive force. That forces Japan to keep a bit more air force in the north. All the sudden this big defensive stack has decent offense potential. As others have mentioned, you can’t actually go on offense until the 3rd Russian turn, but moving back all the stack on R2 (when feasible) can change J2 plans and marginally help elsewhere. You can also do this without the artillery, but the fear factor isn’t the same :).

    By bidding two soviet fighters and sending them to Yunnan, it’s very likely going to prevent a J1. The key is whether there’s a way to create another distraction to prevent a J2 while causing sufficient losses. Only the Soviets or Chinese can create this distraction.

    The problem is that Japan has a pretty low incentive of obstructing the northern russian troops. The land units are more needed down south anyway. That’s why I believe that those art in the northern provinces are a nice touch, but not really called for.



  • @Omega1759 said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    @trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    Sorry, not FIC, since China can’t go there. Only comes pressure when the brits enter Yunnan. That’s a clear weakness of this strategy.

    Potentially reckless strategy, but spices things up:

    Add a mech infantry in Burma and attack the 2 Japanese infantry in Siam on UK Pacific 1.

    Japan is now in a situation where taking French Indochina cost them 10 IPC even without involving the US. Japan will also abstain from taking Philippines and US Naval and air has plenty of time to bail out to safety.

    UK Pacific and Anzac capture an extra 10 IPC between them.

    The major downside is that the US cannot attack until turn 4, which is an eternity for the allied side.

    If that is the path taken, the European side (both UK and Soviet) need to support India / put pressure elsewhere.

    I do not like passively waiting for Japan to take over, but it’s a beast, very hard to take down or even slow down.

    Hehe, that’s fun, but will not happen here. 😉


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @trulpen cool! Do we have a final bid then? Can we let gamer work on his opening? 🙂



  • @Omega1759 said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

    @trulpen cool! Do we have a final bid then? Can we let gamer work on his opening? 🙂

    The bid will be finalized on Wednesday evening UTC+2.


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