hammertimepower last edited by
An odd situation popped up in a game that I was playing with some friends. I was trying out the Dutch Pannenkoek in this game and my buddy was spitballing ideas to counter it.
We discussed specifically attacking the Dutch with the Commonwealth to try and put the Japanese off balance since they were not angling to attack China and might have given the kmt and ccp too much space. We decided it wasn’t worth it but it brought up a discussion.
If the Commonwealth attacks the Dutch they become German aligned. The Japanese still want the Dutch Indies and they are still technically neutral. Could they still declare war on the DEI even if they are German controlled?
insaneHoshi last edited by
If the commonwealth attacks the dutch, and they are at war with the axis, the dutch territories become aligned with the axis and Japan could no longer attack the dutch. According to the rules as written, they would be aligned with the germans which would deny Japan the wartime bonus for controlling them. It may also deny japan the ability to collect all their VPs from Raw Materials.
If the commonwealth attacks the dutch, and they are not at war with the axis, they are merely controlled by the Axis In this state I see no rule stating that you can not attack a minor controlled by your faction, so Japan could then attack those units. In this case, the German player would have to make a recruitment roll for the netherlands as well. Also perhaps I am missing something, but I see no way that a controlled minor would escalate to an aligned minor without the allies attacking them again. In fact there might be a loophole in this case where they go from an axis controlled minor to an allied aligned minor if japan would declare war.
I could be wrong in assuming this, but I think that if your alliance controls a neutral, you would not be allowed to attack it.
But @insaneHoshi raises the good point that this is situational, but it goes one step further.
I don’t think this a very plausible scenario. The UK could only attack a minor power if at it’s wartime income. If at wartime income, they would presumably be at war with the Axis. I guess, in theory, they might not be, but that’s highly unlikely, if for no other reason than Germany would want to utilize it’s Lightning War Strike before it expires, and thus would be at war with the Allies.
But I have a feeling that you would not be able to do this because it’s controlled by your ally Germany. While I don’t believe this is written down anywhere, the game has many many many implied/assumed rules, and I bet you this would be one of them.
insaneHoshi last edited by insaneHoshi
While the UK could be excluded, France has the ability to DoW on turn one (well once they have enough to pay the 10 IPP).
I don’t think that controlling a neutral would prevent you from attacking it. While it would absolutely be gaming the system, if this was a restriction, France could DoW Poland day one and put that massive roadblock between the Germans and Russia. This wouldn’t be an issue if control escalates to aligned at some point, but from what i see that isn’t the case.
Hmm, I don’t know that you’re correct that France can declare war right away. The rulebook states:
5.2 Income Increases: The Allies
cannot declare war until they reach their
Wartime Income level (which is equal to
the value of their starting territories).
Nations may receive Peacetime Income
increases based on the actions of other
nations up to a maximum of their Wartime
That’s in version 2, I haven’t read version 3 enough times to know for sure. I know what you’re thinking, the reference sheet for the UK specifically says they can declare war on a neutral until “Yes (10 IPP penalty*) once at full production”, and the French one only says “Yes (10IPP penalty*)”, but the default would be to believe the rulebook, I would have to imagine. There’s a lot of inconsistencies in the reference sheets, I can almost assuredly say this was an oversight on their part for the French reference sheet. But Rule 5.2 above is very clear that the Allies cannot declare war until at their Wartime Income.
But I get your point on attacking a controlled neutral, that is not said anywhere, and could be very valid (though for the reasons above I don’t believe your example of France attacking Poland turn 1 is possible).
insaneHoshi last edited by insaneHoshi
The Version 3 rules state
5.2 Peacetime Income Increases: Some Nations cannot declare war until they reach their Wartime Income level (which is equal to the value of their starting land zones). Nations income can permanently increase due to the actions of other nations until they reach their Wartime Income (i.e. the full value of their starting land zones). Nations that get variable per turn increases roll for them at the start of each turn.
Plus there is
5.5 The Ability to Declare War: Each nation has different conditions under which it can declare war (i.e. initiate war) which are listed on each National Reference Sheet. In some cases, the nation only needs to reach its full Wartime Income level. In other cases, there are certain stipulations. Once you are able to declare war you may do so at any time, even during another player’s turn.
So France would not be restricted.
Futhemore I think when it comes to rules, the concept of the specific rule trumps the general rule is a good thing to follow.
The UK doesn’t control the Dutch. Until the Dutch are attacked by the Axis or Russia they are a neutral country. They do have special alignment conditions that they will be controlled and eventually aligned to the UK, etc. They also have the ability to declare war on a minor power at any time so they would be able to declare on the Dutch. In my opinion that would be a horrible idea though. First, they would have the 10 IPP penalty plus the -8 penalty to the American Peacetime Income. That doesn’t hurt the Axis at all, it is a huge bonus to them. That takes away one turn of British income and keeps the US out of the war for at least an extra turn. Japan still would have full access to attacking China without having lost a single unit yet. They’re right beside them within range even if the transports are halfway to the Dutch Islands. Germany gets more money to become a beast. How does this hurt Japan?
Interesting @insaneHoshi, that’s definitely different in V3! I would have to agree to disagree on the specific rule generally though, in terms of this game at least. I would certainly agree otherwise in a broader gaming sense, but I know factually there’s a lot of misprints in their reference sheets (for V2 at least) that can’t be relied on. They’ve frequently said in the past on their Global War page that the rule book trumps the reference sheets. Hopefully that would be fixed in the final V3 ones!
But I would agree that this isn’t an issue with the way the V3 rule is written here, thanks for sending!
With that in mind, I suppose I’d also agree with GHG in this instance, that seems like a lot of risk with not much benefit in this specific scenario. But I get that you guys are just throwing ideas around!
@Chris_Henry The Reference Sheets as they are shown on the HBG site are not entirely correct. I went through them meticulously with the designer writing the final rules for V-3. The resulting 8 videos that I made were all of the Reference Sheets corrected with the final rules. I also made a video of Spain which doesn’t have a Reference Sheet with the final rules. That video series “Nations” with all of the correct rules can be found here;
I will begin on the rule book as soon as I can get a final copy (even if it isn’t released yet).
ArtilleryAficianado last edited by ArtilleryAficianado
So I could sure be wrong, but weather Japan can attack a German-controlled minor power seems like it comes down to this - Is a controlled minor power part of an Alliance?
Germany and Japan are both part of the Axis Alliance weather they are aligned or not. According to table 4-1 (Alliances) the controlled minors of Republican Spain/CCP/Nationalist Spain/KMT are part of their respective Alliances at the start of the game. If the Commonwealth attacks a dutch territory (while they’re neutral), the other dutch territories revert to German control. Since you cannot declare war on a member of your own Alliance (table 4-2), an Attack is a declaration of war, and it seems to be indicated that Controlled minors are part of the Alliance of the controlling Major Power (without being aligned), That says to me that Japan can’t attack a German-controlled Minor, but maybe I’m missing something that contradicts my interpretation there.
France could certainly attack Poland though if they wanted as long as Poland isn’t a British-controlled minor or British-Aligned at that point, therefore making it not part of the Western Allies “Alliance”.
@GeneralHandGrenade Thanks GHG! And just to reiterate again, I was referencing the V2 rules, as I stated in my post. I’m not surprised the V3 might have issues too, as they are not finalized.
But my post mentioned that V2 reference sheets had a lot of issues, and in the past HBG has said on their Global War page that the rule book itself should be relied upon in the event that there were discrepancies with the reference sheets.
I’m not speaking to V3 in any way here, as that would not be helpful given they aren’t even finalized sheets! But thanks for the info, I’ll be sure to check out your video!