New A & A game, what would you make it like?



  • If you could make an A & A spin off (Like Europe or Pacific) what would it be?

    If it were up to me, it would be “Axis and Allies: Air Assault” dealing with the air-wars in the European theater.

    The game would starts in Winter '41. (after Germany declares war on America) And Italy would actually be involved with the game.

    Allies: Russia, Britain, America
    Axis: Germany, Italy

    The goal of the Germans is to develop new technologies and air-craft. (Like He280s, Me262s, Ta183s, or Heavier Bombers, while attempting to get Synthetic fuel, more efficient industrial technology.) Germany must determine how much air-craft they will assign to Africa and Russia. Will Germany use their air-craft to harass British convoys, or will they have a blitz in 42?

    Italy is mostly dedicated in the Meditarnean. Italy can have strategic raids on Gibraltar or Malta. Italy may also try to give Africa or the Russian front a boost.

    Russia, which isn’t much of an air-power in the beginning, must depend on nightraids against Germany, and Allied victories in Africa. Otherwise Russia must muster a small air-force and have some flak guns for air-defense.

    Britain and Russia must attempt to develop a large bomber force to reduce German IPCs. America and Britain can also develop technologies like the B29, A26, B32, P51, newer P47s, the meteor, P80 and even the atomic bomb.

    In order to gain IPCs, you must have cities, supply lines, oil and natural resources (like Polesti), industrial centers, and civilian centers intact. You lose IPCs when a convoy is damaged, air-fields get damaged, you lose a terriory, or if you get a supply line cut off etc…

    Germany gets an IPC boost in turn 5, when they enter full wartime production. (May not be fully historically accurate)

    Now here’s the iffy part, losing and gaining territories. Your performance in the air changes what happens on the ground. here’s and example:

    Germany is doing excellent. Their strategic bombing raids against Malta and convoys worked excellently, and they invested in enough nightfighters to protect themselves from nightbombing. They at this point of 50 victory points. With these many victory points, territories will automatocally enter german hands, and germany will profit from the IPCs they are worth. The territories of egypt, caucasus, and malta will fall automatically. If germany has only 45 victory points, then maybe only caucasus will fall.

    Now this system isn’t definate, but i have an idea on how someone earns or loses victory points. Victory points are made by the total amount of IPC damage you do to the enemy and the amount of IPCs you earn divided by the amount of IPC losses your forces face. If you sit back and do nothing, your victory points will not change, if you make bad attacks they will go down,and good ones, they will go up. With more victory points, the more territories you will own, and the more ipcs you will make.

    In this game, territories are made up of airfields, industrial centers (color marked with importance number), and civilian populations. If an airfield is strat-bombed, and there are no fighters or AA guns present to defend it, gets destroyed. It cost 1 IPC to rebuild an airfield, and you can’t use it for a turn. bombing civilian populations takes away the amount of ipcs the enemy makes (but only in their home country.) Their are four different kinds of industrial areas. Yellow, for light production facilities, green for moderate, orange for heavy, and red for vital. Bombing a yellow or green twice destroys them, and they cost 3 ipcs to rebuild. A yellow makes a country 1 ipc every turn, and a green makes 2 ipcs. To destroy a orange or red, you need to bomb them successfully 4 times (at least 4 bombers at once), and a orange makes 4 ipcs, and a red makes 6. Rebuilding one cost 5 ipcs. A territory is worth a set amount of ipcs, and these ipcs are made by the industry in it.

    Now technology development is important. if you develop nothing, than superior technology will shoot you out of the sky. Technology is specific, because one sets aside a certain amount of money aside for artificial fuel, a globster meteor, or a Ta183, and then rolls one die, which multiply the amount of money. Artificial fuel could cost 70 ipcs to make, but all green, orange, and red indsutry will produce 1 to 2 more ipcs.

    Units are also but specifically. you specifically buy b24s, or fw190s. they also hit between one to twelve (not one to six.) a ta183 would have an attack of 10, and a defense of 6.

    Strat bombing convoys or cities are like so. A b17 might have an attack of 4 or less. If you send three against a city or convoy, and they all miss, then they did nothing. if they hit a convoy (takes three hits), the convoy doesn’t return for 2 turns, and the money it makes for its country just doesn’t come.

    You can decide to “nightbomb.” Only flak and nightfighters can attack you, but your attack goes down by half. If attack is 3, then you attack 2. if attack is 1, than attack only every other one hits.

    What if a bomber attacks an industrial center? How would a fighter defend it? easy, as long as a fighter is in movement range, it could defend once. How about bomber escorts? they move with the bomber, and attack (not defend) against attacking fighters. they could only go their range.

    Just for clarification, when the axis do bad enough, italy can leave the game, because its territory will fall, and their forces will dissappear.

    Victory conditions:
    If the allies can’t win within 18 turns and obtain enough victory points, the game is a stalemate.
    If Germany loses most of its victory points (thus ipcs), but lives to the end of 18 turns, then they get nuked. Moderate allied victory.
    If Germany earns enough victory points and holds or destroys (entirely) one capital (hold) or destroys two.
    Moderate Axis victory.
    If Germany holds two Allied capitals, or destroys three, then Total Axis victory.
    If allies hold all axis capitals, then Complete Allied Victory.

    that’s about it.
    any queestions?



  • its me, sorry.



  • It seems like a little too much micro-management for me. I think there’s already a game like this on computer. I’m just content with Axis and Allies Diplomacy Style.



  • what game? i gotta buy it!



  • How about a what if game. Such as if the central powers had won World War 1. The game would be a rematch of the first world war but with better stuff to fight with!



  • I’m currently working on a mod with my friend… it’s pretty good, I think. Kept most of the unit values but I desperately need another game sheet or two because the mod is about Worldwide Diplomacy and features seven strong conglomerate nations. That means seven armies. Each meta-country has their own unique power… the Russians have a population bonus, (free infantry for so many odd purchases), the Chinese an efficiency bonus, (use industrial complexes the same turn they are built/taken), the Australian islands a mercantile bonus, (extra ICP’s), the South Americans have medical advances for preserving units, the Indians/Middle East conglomerate has guerilla terror squads which they can invest in to destroy enemy structures or units, and the European union and the Americans haven’t been fully sorted out yet. Boundries have been redrawn, unit groupings have been redone, and technological advances available have been doubled, now featuring atomic and biological weaponry and of course, a Star Wars system xD. If anyone’s interested, let me know and I’ll pass along a copy of the rule book to you.



  • Ummm… how would you have a rematch of WWI if the Central powers won it?

    About the game, I’ll wait to ask my brother when he gets back from the South. He use to play something just like it. 😄



  • Waraxis: Here’s a tip: Go to tabletactics.com (no www). There’s a set called Central Powers, and its the 1942 scenario with WWI units. It looks pretty cool but I read a couple of reviews saying that it wasn’t too impressive, as it has really no extra rules. But you can still make your own house rules for it, so if that intrests you then go for it.



  • The Problem, Anonomys, that the air war against germany was just as big a failure as
    the Blitz. German production of tanks rose steadily during the war. The bombings only increased German resolve. The Americans lost so many airplanes and pilots that the air war faltered more than once. It didn’t work. Those resources would have been better spent some place else.



  • I would have to disagree with you. The Allied bombing campaign was a measurable success for the Allies. Hot among the list was that the bombing of Axis oil refineries in Romania and other locations. By slowing down already critical German fuel reserves to a mere trickle, the war was shortened by at least several months. Also such attacks on Hamburg (the infamous firestorm) and Berlin no doubt proved a huge psychological blow to the Axis.

    Disrupting supply and communications lines by escort fighters returning from bombing mission also delt a heavy blow. Fighters were free to roam over the countryside and through the towns and cities, destroying at will. The sweeping Mustangs were released to ravage German convoys, trains, antiaircraft gun emplacements, warehouses, airfields, factories, radar installations, and other important things that would be impractical to be attacked by bombers. The fighters were also able to attack German fighters when they were least prepared for it, like when they were taking off or forming up in the air. What made this possible was the increase in the number of American planes present in Europe. This increase in the number of Allied planes compared to the number of German planes continued to the point that, on D-Day, the Allies used 12,873 aircraft while the Germans were only able to muster a mere 300.

    The European air war in its awful fight of attrition was the direct reason for the downfall of the Luftwaffe. Simply put destruction of the Luftwaffe had been won had by B-17 gunners and escort fighters like the Mustang], using bomber formations as bait to entice the Luftwaffe to fight. Fierce combat in Operation Big Week alone had cost the Germans some 225 pilots and 141 wounded, a tenth of the Luftwaffe’s interceptor airmen. Upon assessing the situation, Aldolf Galland concluded, “Between January and April 1944 our day fighter arm lost more than 1,000 pilots…. the time has come when our force is within site of collapse”



  • I agree with moses. Germany production rised, not because of resilience, but because of the fact they just recently went into full wartime production. 500,000 sturmgewhers werre made, 125,000 made it to the front. over 1,000 me262s were made, i believe less than half made it to the front.

    and how about the fact germany had weapons, but no fuel and ammo to make them useful?



  • I agree with Moses and Horton too.

    If you ask the question, did Allied strategic bombing by itself bring Germany to its knees, then the answer is, no. But you’d be asking for too much.

    In the '20s and 30s there were airpower advocates (like Billy Mitchell in the U.S.)who predicted that future wars would be won by bombers alone. These people were proved wrong in WWII, but this lack of total success should not cause one to go the opposite extreme and say the effort did no good.

    Allied bombing was one of the major reasons for the defeat of Germany. Although it did not stop Axis production, it hindered it greatly, and as Moses points out so well it destroyed the Luftwaffe by drawing it out to fight against unfavorable odds. By June 6, 1944, the Luftwaffe just wasn’t around anymore in France. And that total control of the air is what enabled the Allies to take Normandy and then the rest of France.



  • I’d disagree that strategic bombing brought Germany to it’s knees. After the massive raid on Plotesti, It continued to provide just as much oil as before



  • … Ploesti production stood stable after the raid, but it would double in two months!!!


    “I guess world domination is a guy thing…” -Yanny
    “The only enemy more powerful than an invisible enemy is an invincible enemy”- me
    According to some, I’m in the CIA or the Mossad, because I support Israel on Indymedia

    [ This Message was edited by: HortenFlyingWing on 2002-04-19 14:22 ]



  • I did some researching and this was what my sources had to say,

    “On May 12, 1944, attacks were begun on German oil-production facilities and synthetic oil-production centers. These attacks caused a sudden and catastrophic drop in German fuel and lubricant supplies. In only two months of attacks, German oil production was cut in half. Especially successful were the attacks on the stubborn oil production facility of Ploesti in Rumania, which had been so resistant to previous attacks. By the time that Ploesti was taken by the Russians, 90 percent of this Rumanian oil production facility had been destroyed. Destruction of the synthetic oil centers had the additional beneficial side effect of cutting the supplies of nitrogen and methanol, which essential in the manufacture of explosives. The postwar Strategic Bombing Survey judged that the oil offensive was the most effective of all the strategic bombing attacks in helping to shorten the war.”



  • Indeed. I think the strategic raids on the petrolium industry was the only campaign that really worked. All attempts at stratigic bombing before 1944 were basicly doomed to insignificcant results and heavy losses.



  • The oil bombing campaign was only one of the successes of US and Britain’s strategic air campaign over Europe. I wish TG were here so he could explain it better, but I will try my best. In my argument I site the US Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS), authorized by President Franklin Roosevelt, which employed over a thousand analysts who began their work in November 1944. This produced 208 volumes of charts, tables, and analysis. Another lesser document was the British Bombing Survey Unit (BBSU) employed only a few dozen individuals, and did begin collecting data until after the war ended. Overall, these reports paint a detailed and favorable assessment of the bombing campaign.

    Repeated with dozens of graphs and tables, it documents the collapse of the German economy under the weight of the bombing offensive. Germany’s transportation network of rail junctions, convoys, and marshalling yards were also hard hit by air attacks, prevent Germans from staging successful counterattacks and bleeding away German reinforcements. Absenteeism among factory workers due to the bombing exceeded 25 percent in some areas, and oil, steel, chemicals, explosives, rubber, and fertilizer production plummeted once the bombing campaign began in earnest in the summer of 1944. Due to the slow buildup of Allied air forces and their use in operations in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and the Battle of the Atlantic as well as preparations for Overlord, the actual tonnage dropped on Germany was relatively slight for much of the war: 72 percent of all bombs dropped on Germany fell after D day.

    By the third quarter of l944, coping with the aftermath of the Allied air strikes tied down an estimated four and one-half million workers, about 20 percent of the non-farm labor force, in cleaning and rebuilding operations. Bombing had annihilated half of the sum total of all petroleum products by December 1944. In turn, reserves of aviation gasoline had plummeted by 90 percent of their availability from May 1944 when the Allied air campaign against aviation gasoline had formally begun. The assault on German rail transportation that had commenced in September 1944 had in the course of five months lessened the volume of railroad car loads by 75 percent.

    The report also notes that Allied armies overrunning Germany and occupying factory districts did not cause these production drops. The Allies did not enter Germany until late February 1945, and by then the economy had already been destroyed from the air. The bombing campaign utilized only 7 percent of the total British war effort to achieve these gains, whereas the British army absorbed eight times the resources while also incurring heavier casualties.

    Obliteration of a nation’s war making capacity was only part of the equation for the proponents of Allied bombing. The annihilation of the enemy’s will to make war and resist attackers of its air space and territory was of equal significance. The postwar United States Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS) showed how a besieged population fared under relentless American and British bombing:

    The Survey further supports the findings in Germany that no nation can long survive the free exploitation of air weapons over its home-land…… It is important to fully grasp the fact that enemy planes enjoying control of the sky over one’s head can be as disastrous to one’s country as its occupation by physical invasion. Herman Goering latter admitted that the war was over when American P-51s freely reigned over the skies of Berlin unopposed and undaunted.


    “Axis and Allies stands not only as one of the most stupendous works of man, but also as one of the most beautiful of human creations. Indeed, it is at once so great and so simple that it seems to be almost a work of nature.”

    [ This Message was edited by: TM Moses VII on 2002-04-19 18:09 ]



  • good read TM.



  • Thank you Sir Horten. I’m sorry for the incredibly long post, it’s just that whenever the valor and sacrifice of my brave American airmen is looked upon as vain, I have to defend them. The bombing campaign is almost as misunderstood as the Vietnam War. It was misreported then, and it is misremembered now. Never have the consequences of their misunderstanding been so tragic.



  • What is misunderstood about the Vietnam war?

    P.S. I think he was refering to the first raid on Ploesti.



  • “After the massive raid on Plotesti…”

    That just about says it all. In the August 1, 1943 raid on Ploesti, 163 B24 Liberator bombers left American airfields in Libya heading for axis oil fields near Ploesti, Romania. This was an rather small number, considering the size of later air raids even before August 1, 1943. 50 bombers were lost, although 40% of the petroleum facilities at Ploesti were temporarily disrupted. A navigational error dispersed the bomber force and cost the element of surprise and the attack became a whirling confusion of aircraft crossing in all directions and altitudes. However, it was the gallant courage, brilliant leadership, and superior flying skill of Col. Johnson that led his formation to destroy the important refining plants and installations that prevented the raid from achieving success from disaster. While it was true that the destruction of the oil refineries were repaired within a few months times, subsequent air raids prevented Ploesti from ever reaching full production capability.

    It was not until the spring and summer of 1944, US Fifteenth Air Force hammered Ploesti in earnest. A raid on June 23, 1944, sent 761 bombers (this number being a “massive raid”) against Rumanian oil targets. 60,000 airmen eventually flew against Ploesti, dropping 13,000 tons of bombs, eventually knocking out the oil fields and accelerating Germany’s defeat.

    Vietnam? There are so many misconceptions about Vietnam I don’t know where to start. As the a quote by the Vietnam veterans goes, “Will they turn their heads in shame? Will they even remember? Or will they turn their heads away and forget the thing ever happened.”



  • Nixon forced peace treaties through massive bombing. we should of never fought a land war there.



  • The use of massive bombing actually strengthened the will to fight for the Viet Cong. It was through the combination of land and air power that finally brought North Vietnam to the bargaining table.



  • "The use of massive bombing actually strengthened the will to fight for the Viet Cong. "

    Maybe during the Johnson administration. When Nixon was in there, the bombings were in actual civilized areas…After Nixon disgraced america, the North Vietemese knew that Ford wouldn’t intervene with force, so they just walked in.



  • could it be that we overturned their own DEMOCRATIC election have anything to do with the fact that the north vietnames started to hate us with bombings, riots, etc???


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