Italy Economy


  • 2019 2018 2017

    Hey all!

    I’ve been a little unclear on Italy’s IPP’s here.

    Their wartime economy is 10 IPP (amount from territory they start the game with), but their starting money is 7 IPP.

    Does that just mean they only get 7 IPP the first turn to use, then at their collect income phase at the end of turn one they get to collect the full 10 IPP that their territories are worth? Assuming they haven’t taken anything worth something, that is.

    Or do they just not get to make more than 7 IPP until at war with another major power?

    I’ve up to this point given them the 10 IPP at the end of the first turn. The other Axis powers all have the IPP available for the total of their territories, so I’m just trying to see a way that Italy could possibly work up to their IPP total’s that aren’t explicitly written anywhere otherwise.

    Thanks!

    Chris



  • @Chris_Henry

    Only 7 income a turn until Italy declares war on a Major Power, or Italy gets war declared upon them after having declared war on a minor power.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @mrgoatcheese

    Thanks man. I wondered that. I just didn’t seem clear anywhere in the rules. All the Allied powers have the clearly laid out ways to reach their wartime income, that just didn’t seem to be listed anywhere for Italy.


  • 2018 2017 '16

    You may have overlooked this from page 23 of the rulebook, Chris.

    5.1 Reduced Income: A nation at peace has often reduced income when not at war.
    Nations start with different income levels based on their historical level of military expenditures.

    And then this from the Italian reference card;

    War Status. At peace with all nations. Free to declare war.

    It shows the Wartime income as 10. They don’t get that until at war.



  • @GeneralHandGrenade said in Italy Economy:

    It shows the Wartime income as 10. They don’t get that until at war.

    They don’t get that until at war [with a major power].

    If they received wartime income when at war with any nation then they would have no incentive to eliminate Abyssinia. So, as the rules state in ANOTHER section, nations are considered neutral unless at war with a MAJOR power.

    Not only is the rule book in desperate need of a re-write, but it literally contradicts itself (by saying Italy is at peace with all nations) and requires people to scour the rulebook for rules.

    For example, on the French National Reference sheet it has no limitations for France to declare war on, say, Japan. However, reading ONE sentence in the rule book clarified that Allied powers must be at full income to declare war.

    Rulebooks for Grand Strategy board games ought to be written similar to legal documents. This includes references within rules to other rules. It is no wonder that @Chris_Henry may have overlooked a rule or two in the convoluted, contradictory, ill-structured rulebook.

    I mean no offence to the creators of the game, I certainly could not create and balance a game as vast as Global War 1936. I simply would like to provide constructive criticism (assuming the creator even reads these forums). I hope that when the (much anticipated) V.3 rules are released that I could perhaps provide some constructive criticism.


  • 2018 2017 '16

    @mrgoatcheese said in Italy Economy:

    They don’t get that until at war

    That isn’t a quote from the rulebook that was me in my own words. I didn’t put “at war with a major power” because it had already been correctly stated earlier by you in this thread.

    This is a quote from the Italy reference sheet;
    1936: Italy is already at war with Abyssinia and does not
    have to declare war on that country and thus does not trigger
    a British /French income increase.

    All of the information is there it takes a lot of effort to put it together. I agree with you that it needs to be re-written to make it easier to understand. That’s why I’ve focused my efforts to pointing out where clarifications need to be made. Having said that this rule is pretty easy to decipher. I wish you could just go one place and find the answers that you are looking for, but the reality is you need to check the rulebook and the reference sheets simultaneously a lot for an answer.
    I used to think that the A&A 1940 rulebooks were a mess and that it was a pain to have to flip to many sections to find one answer. I was forced to do it over and over again to answer questions for my subscribers and so it got easier and easier to find answers quickly. The sad fact is that it takes a lot of research to learn the rules to these large scale games. Hopefully the next edition of these rules will be better but even if they’re twice as good it will still take an extraordinary amount of research to master the rules. The real trick I have found is to learn where is the most likely place to find each particular rule and if it isn’t there then what’s your second guess. Hint* it isn’t necessarily the most logical place, that’s where the research and repetition comes in. That’s what it takes to find that ONE sentence that states the rule you’re looking for.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    Thanks guys!

    I didn’t over look any of that. In fact, you thinking I may have is part of the problem I think!

    The rule states that they don’t get 10 IPP until at war. Does that mean with another Major Power only? Or does that also mean any minor power? Because yes, they start the game at war with Abyssinia, so that would not count, as it’s not declaring war. Also annexing Albania would not count. So in that regard that makes sense.

    But does this all mean that the common rules for the Allies and USSR, of needing to reach your wartime income before you can declare any war yourself, is not applied to Italy? Because they’d have no way in the current structure to up their income without fighting someone.

    So I take this to mean that if Italy were to attack anyone, let’s just say Greece for now, they would automatically jump to the 10 IPP a turn, despite not being at war with a Major Power just yet?



  • @Chris_Henry

    They would not get their wartime income as they are not at war with a major power. You are only considered at “war” once you’re at war with a major power. That should be explained in the diplomatic section (third chapter?) of the rulebook. I’m too busy to look it up right now.

    So, for example, the Japanese do not get their wartime income bonuses for holding Chinese land UNTIL they are at war with a MAJOR POWER. Same goes for the Dutch East Indies.

    The Ruskies have the “Sleeping Bear” rule as to allow them to declare war in January 1939.

    The Italians have no restriction for war, only the Allies and Comintern do. There is an Allied War Penalty designed to prevent the Allies gaming the system and achieving their full income too early. The Axis have no such penalty. The Allies war penalty is so restrictive that if an Axis power never DECLARES war then the Allies can never declare war on them. However, the Soviets can just Yeet at you but at their own risk.

    So to summarize: Italy declaring war on any minor power (including Greece) would not cast Italy into “war” and also Italy would not receive their “wartime bonus income”. In fact, that very declaration would allow the Allies to declare war on Italy and seize the initiative. So perhaps it isn’t the best idea. Italy can instead project threat because Italy cannot be declared war upon by the ALLIES before Italy declares war (upon anyone).

    I hope this helps and I’d be happy to elaborate and discuss more if you would like,

    All the best,
    MrGoatCheese


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @mrgoatcheese

    Thanks again for the reply. I might not be being clear! I definitely understand all the rules you’re laying out above. That’s not really the issue I was having. I suppose it’s morphed into an issue of clarity in the rulebooks at this point. And I’m with you, I hate harping on that subject so much, but it’s always been the largest and most glaring issue.

    I guess my original question, after you answered whether Italy got 10 IPP or 7 IPP, based on the scenario above, was what their income level would be after turn one. That I was unclear on, and is now made clear!

    But what am MAYBE now missing is how Italy could ever possible declare war on a major power, unless there should be a caveat to the rules, or I’m missing something.

    The rules pretty plainly say you need to be at your wartime economy to be able to declare war on a major power. It’s literally impossible for Italy to reach said wartime income then UNTIL they’ve declared war on a major power. That is what I suppose I hadn’t understood before, that Italy has the capacity to declare war on a major power without being at their wartime economy.

    Slight FYI, Sleeping Bear rule doesn’t allow USSR to declare war in 1939, it just allows them to start rolling a D12 each turn to begin getting closer to their wartime economy, regardless of anything the Axis have or have not done.

    Same with the Greece example, that wouldn’t just allow the Allies to declare war on Italy. It’s POSSIBLE they could, but that is if their 2D12 die roll for Italy attacking a minor power got them enough IPP to reach their wartime economy. Regardless, the general point of not much advantage gained is received.

    Now this is something I wasn’t aware of at all, and would love your clarification. So you’re saying no Axis powers can accrue any money other than what is stated as their wartime economy (or in Italy’s case just the 7 IPP) until they are at war with a major power, despite how many minors they may take? As in, Germany 20 IPP, Japan 16 IPP, and Italy 7 IPP, and that’s it?

    To expound, if Germany annexes Austria, Sudentenland, and Slovakia, one each the first three turns of the game, they do not get to gain control of and use those new IPP’s until at war with a major? Even further, let’s say the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is in play, and they get the Polish territories, they wouldn’t be able to accrue anything more than the 20 IPP?

    Also, as you state above, same goes for Japan? If they go to war with China, but are not at war with another major, they don’t get to accrue/use any of the IPP’s from Chinese territory? It’s just 16 IPP until at war with a major?

    That seems a little shocking to me. I just scoured the rulebook as well, and I don’t see that mentioned anywhere. I’m curious how it is you decided that was the case? Genuinely would love to know, as that isn’t something I’ve ever considered to be interpreted from my readings of the rulebook!

    Thanks again!

    Chris



  • I think you are getting the rules for each power confused with the universal rule.

    5.5 The Ability to Declare War: Each nation has different conditions under which it can declare war which are listed on their National Reference Sheet. In some cases, the nation only needs to reach its full Wartime Income level. In other cases there are more conditions to be met. Once you are able to declare war you may do so at any time, even during another player’s turn.

    Specific to your question, Italy does not have any conditions to meet prior to it declaring war. Italy is able to declare war against the following at the beginning of the game (per their reference sheet):

    • Britain, France, Soviet Union, USA, Nationalist China, Communist China
    • Austria & Czechoslovakia
      -But they would fight back - and become British minor allies.
    • Any Minor Country

    Do not confuse this with the restrictions placed on the Allies
    e.g. the British Commonwealth
    Britain May Declare War on:

    • Any Minor Nation
      -Yes (10 IPP penalty*) once at full production
    • The Axis
      -Yes, Once Britain reaches full production. It cannot declare war on an Axis power that has not yet declared war on another nation during the game.
    • The Comintern
      -Yes, but only if the USA is at war with the Comintern.

    In conclusion, Italy may declare war at anytime. Until it is at war, it collects peacetime income.
    Remember that this is an asymmetrical game, not all rules are shared by all players/ some players have exceptions.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @Wildcat6305

    Thanks Wildcat! No, I understand all that very well! I guess the one part I didn’t realize was the having your “wartime” economy wasn’t necessarily a prerequisite, or something that would be jumped to. But now I know!

    What I’m really curious in now though is the point @mrgoatcheese brought up about not being able to use any IPP from conquered territories until at war with a major power. Can anyone point to me where that’s the rule? I don’t see that as being the case anywhere, so it really took me by surprise hearing that!

    Thanks,

    Chris



  • @Chris_Henry

    All I meant was that you don’t get your wartime bonus income until at war with a major power. You would get the value of the land you take. So, Japan would get +2 for Nanking but not the +1 bonus until at war with a major power.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @mrgoatcheese

    Ahhh okay. Yes, that I knew. Apologies, I definitely misunderstood what you said!

    Well, thanks all for the clarifications. Definitely was nice to get clarification for Italy’s IPP’s.



  • @mrgoatcheese Italy does have an independent reason for invading Abyssinia: Italy gets two potential VPs for controlling up to 2 new territories at the end of the game. Abyssinia would be 1, and Albania another. In both cases, those territories would be taken without subjecting Italy to having war declared on it by the Allies, and Italy could theoretically sit tight until the end of the game and collect those two VPs.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    There’s a whole other thread discussing that very thing somewhere on here. It was interesting to see. Hell, they could get 3 easily if they just assisted in helping the Nationalist win the Spanish Civil War too, and still never actually fight anyone.



  • @Chris_Henry and then the 4th by just spending their 7 IPPs to spend BBs the rest of the game!


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @cdatkins74 exactly!

    That thread I mentioned goes into a bit more detail. While that seems like a solid plan for Italy on the surface, you of course end up freeing up however many Allied units/IPP’s to concentrate their efforts elsewhere on the map. Yeah, you can’t just leave the Med/Italy without a force in the area to check them, but an Allied player won’t have to spend so much there keeping them in check either! Some give and take there, but I suppose is something viable one could try sometime!



  • @cdatkins74

    I know. I said that if being at war with Abyssinia meant that Italy was at “war” and therefore received their “wartime income”, THEN Italy would have no incentive to attack. Because if they attacked and won then they would cease to be at “war” and would go back down to “peacetime income”. To counter this, I assume the creator made the rule that one must be at war with a Major Power to receive “wartime income”.

    I believe “wartime income” should be changed to “Total Mobilization”, or “Total War Economy”, or something of the sort as to avoid confusion.

    Heck, perhaps there should be three levels of income. Peacetime (limited troop types can be built), wartime (all troops can be built but you’re not at total war and don’t yet receive “wartime economy” or what I proposed to be “Total War Economy” income bonuses), and “Total War Economy” (you can build anything and receive wartime bonus income).


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