AARHE: Phase 2: Technology


  • @Imperious:

    ASW allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack ships in conjunction with ships its a perfected technique.

    You meant “allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack subs in conjunction wit ships” right?

    ++++ right

    ++++++ ground radar allows you to see and react to planes coming overhead. For the game it can possibly allow DAS in the same round rather than having to wait one round for planes to assist.

    What happens if attacker does not send planes?  :?

    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    underground factories? I feel this should be an IC upgrade purchased rather than researched
    +++++ The practical value could be better efficiency and -1 on all armor and plane costs…[/quote[

    Cheaper units? I was thinking more like resistance to SBR and our “production interruption”.

    +++ ok that would work how would the production thing work in that case?

    [quote]please list what you think all these tech should be. id say about 15 items

    You’ve covered pretty much everything. Except computers, which is quite major.

    But this one is tough to model.
    Stronger attack can’t be justified, not even with D12 system.
    Quicker attack organisation can’t be modelled currently, with no time limit per turn.
    Only thing would be certain technologies should be easier to research after you’ve got “computer” technology.
    These would probably be atomic, rocketry, jet, sonar and radar.

    ++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?


  • lol try not to reply in the form of moderating my post, because I can’t tell from the forum page whether you’ve replied!

    What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support? And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?

    ++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?

    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.

    Hence I was thinking certain technologies should be easier to get with computer power. One book mentions electronic computer would have speed up the Mahattan project. (Among with theories that US government always had more computing power than we know…)


  • lol try not to reply in the form of moderating my post, because I can’t tell from the forum page whether you’ve replied!

    +++++ SORRY BOUT THAT… had limited time so i took a quick way

    Quote
    What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support?

    +++ good question! I think defending planes should be allowed to defend ro come in on the second combat round if adjacent. Yes so DAS  works under either contition.

    And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?

    ++++yes

    Quote
    ++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?

    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.

    ++++ hmmm not sure about its relavence in this format… with details explain how it could work?

    Hence I was thinking certain technologies should be easier to get with computer power. One book mentions electronic computer would have speed up the Mahattan project. (Among with theories that US government always had more computing power than we know…)

    +++++ with this im really not sure its purpose… Ok how bout you list all the tech possible in this game… state basically all the different techs from both revised and 2nd edition. well go thru the list step by step and weed out stuff and add others.

    on the cuff:

    atomic bombs
    surface to air missiles ( v-2/a-4)
    heavy tanks
    long range artillery ( rail guns)
    artificial harbors (mulberry)
    jet fighters
    jet bombers
    long range aircraft
    super battleships
    super subs ( electro boats)
    ASW 1,2,3
    efficiant factories ( underground?)
    self propelled artillery
    chemical weapons
    naval sonar
    radar
    enemy code broken ( you can react to his attacks with some benifit)
    guided torpedos?
    lance torpedo ( used for shallow waters)
    better weapons ( mp44 submachine gun?)


  • @Imperious:

    What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support?
    +++ good question! I think defending planes should be allowed to defend ro come in on the second combat round if adjacent. Yes so DAS  works under either contition.

    And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?
    ++++yes

    When can you send DAS if the enemy attacks with air units only? land units only? both?

    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?

    Now finally back to where we started….technology!

    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?

    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.
    ++++ hmmm not sure about its relavence in this format… with details explain how it could work?

    Yep that was what I mentioned too. I was only considering its effect on acquiring other technologies.

    +++++ with this im really not sure its purpose.

    Well it speeds up other acquiring of certain technologies.

    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).

    atomic bombs
    surface to air missiles ( v-2/a-4)
    heavy tanks
    long range artillery ( rail guns)
    artificial harbors (mulberry)
    jet fighters
    jet bombers
    long range aircraft
    super battleships
    super subs ( electro boats)
    ASW 1,2,3
    efficiant factories ( underground?)
    self propelled artillery
    chemical weapons
    naval sonar
    radar
    enemy code broken ( you can react to his attacks with some benifit)
    guided torpedos?
    lance torpedo ( used for shallow waters)
    better weapons ( mp44 submachine gun?)

    I would probably cut out “chemical weapons” and “better weapons”.
    And I hope we could have just “ASW” not 3 levels.


  • When can you send DAS if the enemy attacks with air units only? land units only? both?

    +++++Das can be sent when the attacker is attacking you with either or both land units and planes.

    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?

    +++++ This is not exact interpretation of the rule as written: DAS is allowed to stay and help its units defend untill the attacker has broken off the attack. At this point the attacker will probably retreat w/o his own air support… but if he wants he can continue.

    Now finally back to where we started…technology!

    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?

    ++++++well not exactly the one round thing is if the planes are adjacent and not actually in the attacked territory. This promotes disbursement of your air force and a more historically realistic strategy.

    Quote
    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.
    ++++ hmmm not sure about its relavence in this format… with details explain how it could work?
    Yep that was what I mentioned too. I was only considering its effect on acquiring other technologies.

    Quote
    +++++ with this im really not sure its purpose.
    Well it speeds up other acquiring of certain technologies.

    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).

    +++++ AHHH! i didnt see that coming! thats a good idea… i would rephrase it because the word computer was not really in use at this time.

    Quote
    atomic bombs
    surface to air missiles ( v-2/a-4)
    heavy tanks
    long range artillery ( rail guns)
    artificial harbors (mulberry)
    jet fighters
    jet bombers
    long range aircraft
    super battleships
    super subs ( electro boats)
    ASW 1,2,3
    efficiant factories ( underground?)
    self propelled artillery
    chemical weapons
    naval sonar
    radar
    enemy code broken ( you can react to his attacks with some benifit)
    guided torpedos?
    lance torpedo ( used for shallow waters)
    better weapons ( mp44 submachine gun?)

    I would probably cut out “chemical weapons” and “better weapons”.
    And I hope we could have just “ASW” not 3 levels.

    +++++ ok on asw we only really need:

    1. something to allow the use of planes in ASW search
    2. something to allow fighters/divebombers ability to attack subs in asw
    3. something to say “your sucess roll for asw search and destroy has gone up from 2 to 3”

    thats it… i was using asw 1,2,3 for simplicity.

    “chemical weapons” and “better weapons” would probably be left out but i included what i thought should be at least possible and hence considered. what can you add to that list?


  • @Imperious:

    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?
    +++++ This is not exact interpretation of the rule as written: DAS is allowed to stay and help its units defend untill the attacker has broken off the attack. At this point the attacker will probably retreat w/o his own air support… but if he wants he can continue.

    Ok so DAS air force can retreat at time. But must retreat when attack (or defender) retreats completely.

    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?
    ++++++well not exactly the one round thing is if the planes are adjacent and not actually in the attacked territory. This promotes disbursement of your air force and a more historically realistic strategy.

    if planes are adjacent?
    So “reduce by” rather than “remove” 1-combat-cycle latency? But DAS must be from adjacent territories right?

    not actually in the attacked territory?
    Are you saying DAS can be from the territory itself? But don’t they just fight normally? To say those air units are doing DAS as well would be confusing.

    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).
    +++++ AHHH! i didnt see that coming! thats a good idea… i would rephrase it because the word computer was not really in use at this time.

    Ok good.

    +++++ ok on asw we only really need:

    1. something to allow the use of planes in ASW search
    2. something to allow fighters/divebombers ability to attack subs in asw
    3. something to say “your sucess roll for asw search and destroy has gone up from 2 to 3”

    thats it… i was using asw 1,2,3 for simplicity.

    Ok I see….so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    what can you add to that list?

    Mech infantry?
    Some of our new units can be purchasable after technology acquired?
    Say did everyone have dive bombers at the beginning?


  • Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 08:54:31 PM
    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?
    +++++ This is not exact interpretation of the rule as written: DAS is allowed to stay and help its units defend untill the attacker has broken off the attack. At this point the attacker will probably retreat w/o his own air support… but if he wants he can continue.

    Ok so DAS air force can retreat at time. But must retreat when attack (or defender) retreats completely.

    ++++yes exactly!

    Quote
    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?
    ++++++well not exactly the one round thing is if the planes are adjacent and not actually in the attacked territory. This promotes disbursement of your air force and a more historically realistic strategy.
    if planes are adjacent?

    So “reduce by” rather than “remove” 1-combat-cycle latency? But DAS must be from adjacent territories right?

    ++++ yes the idea does not seen correct but the idea has to do with positioning of forces… trying to force the players to get away from big stacks of plastic and break it down into smaller armies… anything i can do to facilitae a player to place his air force in different stacks the better. where his air units goes so does his land stacks to protect them.

    not actually in the attacked territory?
    Are you saying DAS can be from the territory itself?

    +++++ thats the most common way from the same territory you perform DAS the one combat round latency thing is for adjacent territories where it has to fly from to the attacked territory.

    But don’t they just fight normally? To say those air units are doing DAS as well would be confusing.

    +++++ any plane thats defending land units by engaging attacking air units is performing a DAS mission

    Quote
    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).
    +++++ AHHH! i didnt see that coming! thats a good idea… i would rephrase it because the word computer was not really in use at this time.
    Ok good.

    Quote
    +++++ ok on asw we only really need:

    1. something to allow the use of planes in ASW search
    2. something to allow fighters/divebombers ability to attack subs in asw
    3. something to say “your sucess roll for asw search and destroy has gone up from 2 to 3”

    thats it… i was using asw 1,2,3 for simplicity.

    Ok I see…so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    +++++ yes exactly i am not sure of the language to describe it but yes…

    Quote
    what can you add to that list?

    Mech infantry?
    Some of our new units can be purchasable after technology acquired?
    Say did everyone have dive bombers at the beginning?

    ++++++ the new units are on the optional list as per duke… but yes all nations had tactical fighters that specialized in attacking tanks with a single bomb underneath the fuselage. each nation had its own name for it. The divebomber suits the bill for a name thats acceptable.


  • +++++ any plane thats defending land units by engaging attacking air units is performing a DAS mission

    The definition is a little confusing,
    I mean the defending air units may not even be engaging attacking air units. Since we can “DAS” even if the attacker does not send air units.

    Maybe just call it “air support” or something. I mean there is no different in “offensive air support” or “defensive air support” anyway…besides for fighting values.

    Air support is just “dogfighting” and “air superiority bombing”.

    Ok I see….so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    +++++ yes exactly i am not sure of the language to describe it but yes…

    Some possiblities:

    Airborne sea scanning radar - asw search for planes
    Aircraft searchlight and sonobuoys - +1 asw search for planes

    High frequency direction finding - +1 asw search

    Ahead-throwing anti-submarine weapons - +1 asw attack for ships


  • On the other hand we could have

    Submarine fuel and stealth:  -1 asw search


  • The definition is a little confusing,
    I mean the defending air units may not even be engaging attacking air units. Since we can “DAS” even if the attacker does not send air units.

    ++++ DAS occurs any time the defending player uses air units to defend attacked territories. If the DAS support mission is to come from an adjacent territory, their is a one combat round penalty… thus they can participate on the round after they are called in. Thats it… their is nothing more complicated. If they stay where they are thats fine too. Defensive air support is the correct terminology for this. When the attacker uses planes its called close ground assault mission… and thats the correct terminology as well.

    Maybe just call it “air support” or something. I mean there is no different in “offensive air support” or “defensive air support” anyway…besides for fighting values.

    Air support is just “dogfighting” and “air superiority bombing”.

    +++ thats slang words… we are using historical terminology…nobody ever said: “just go out and dogfight enemy planes”

    Quote
    Ok I see…so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    +++++ yes exactly i am not sure of the language to describe it but yes…

    Some possiblities:

    Airborne sea scanning radar - asw search for planes
    Aircraft searchlight and sonobuoys - +1 asw search for planes

    High frequency direction finding - +1 asw search

    Ahead-throwing anti-submarine weapons - +1 asw attack for ships

    ++++ again this is not proper terminology… if we dont know exactly what its called we have to resort to a generic name… that is not the case in air missions. The nomenclature must be accurate and realistic…


  • ++++ again this is not proper terminology…

    I pulled those out from wikipedia.
    Do you mean it shouldn’t be named after a specific technology?


  • NO im saying the air missions must have the proper name. The aspects of ASW that represent say the ability of planes to enjoy search should be named according to what it was historically referred to… post anything on this… we need to have proper historical names for this technology.


  • So how is heavy tanks gonna work?

    Opening fire? +1 attack? Cost ?


  • AS a new unit … that would be a different thread. as part of the tech tree i see Germany having the lead followed by soviets, british and americans, last is japan.

    so say the total tech boxes for heavy tanks is fixed at 4 boxes…

    germany would have 3 boxes checked allready, soviets 2, US/UK one box allready checked… and japan has a full 4 boxes empty they are lagging…

    as a unit its best to address this under a seperate thread… but

    attack 4 ,defend 4, cost 7 or 8, move 2 spaces.


  • what would guided torpedos do?


  • I would have Japan allready with this and with USA about 1-2  boxes away from completion. this would be a 3-4 box tech. it would allow a +1 attack by divebombers/ torpedo bombers on surface ships.


  • as mentioned before I hope we don’t have a very varied no. of boxes for the technologies

    say would be good if it was either 2, 4, or 8 boxes
    rather than 2,3,4,5…


  • OK then you accept that fact that some technologies are “harder” than others? Secondly, why does the boxes have to be 2,4,6,8… or rather even quantities? is their some special consideration you have in mind? are you aiming for simplicity in some way?

    where would you have the tech box count as?


  • yeah I certainly accept harder and easier technologies

    doesn’t have to be 2, 4, 8 I guess
    just 2 or 3 “difficulty” levels

    could try 1, 3, 6 actually

    oh yeah we need names for the two “categories” of technology
    like weapons development and weapons upgrade

  • Moderator

    I know you guys are deep in discovering new technologies, but have you ever thought of this?

    How about making certain technology “Appear” when it becomes “necessary”. Like you lose all your tanks in one turn or a certain amount of a course of turns and then you start researching it with benefits to research it i.e. Cheaper costs free rolls etc…

    GG

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