AARHE: Phase 2: Technology



  • surface to air is not for this game. Its too experimental and small scale.

    Yeah wiki says none of Germany’s SAMs were used operationally lol.



  • Ok so “Heavy Tanks” replaces surface to air missiles.
    To move along I’ll start drafting numbers on the revised list.

    Technology Difficulty: Boxes

    Air:
    3 Jet Planes (AARHE values)
    2 Long Range Aircraft (OOB)
    2 Heavy Bombers (OOB)

    Land:
    2 Rockets (OOB but new economic damage restriction)
    2 Heavy Artillery (5 IPC, 3/2, cross territroy bombardment)
    3 Heavy Tanks (8 IPC, 4/3, takes 2 hits)

    Sea:
    2 Super Submarines (SS 3/3, -1 modifier ASW search roll)
    2 Advanced ASW (+1 modifier ASW search roll, +1 modifier ASW attack roll, planes perform ASW but without +1 modifier)

    Other:
    8 Atomic Bomb
    2 Advanced Radar (+1 modifier Antiaircraft search roll)

    Economic:
    2 Underground Factories (No income interruption from combat, “Income interrupt” amount immune to SBR)
    3 Advanced Production (FTR SS AP -1; DD CA BMR -2; CV BB -3)

    Pre-war Research

    Germany: 1 Jet Plane, 1 Rocket, 1 Atomic Bomb
    Japan: none
    USSR: none
    UK: 1 Radar
    US: 1 Heavy Bomber, 2 Atomic Bomb

    Research capacity

    Dice cost 5 IPC.

    USSR  2 free + 1 purchasable
    UK 2 free + 2 purchasable
    USA 6 free + 4 purchasable

    Germany 4 free + 4 purchasable
    Japan 2 free + 2 purchasable
    Italy 2 free + 1 purchasable



  • Reality check:

    USA Tech push and Atomic Bomb all the way…
    10 dices per turn.
    They need 6 more boxes.
    On average 36 dices needed, they would get it by turn 4.
    But thats 20 IPC per turn on Tech.

    If they only use the free dices.
    6 dices per turn.
    They would get it by turn 6.

    If they is too fast we’ll reduce the research capacity.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    yea but rather increase the boxes needed to get it.



  • Ok instead of 2, 3, and 8 boxes. Maybe more like 3, 4, and 10 boxes…
    Any other comments like the difficutly of minor techs or the actual techs?

    Air:
    4 Jet Planes (AARHE values)
    3 Long Range Aircraft (OOB)
    3 Heavy Bombers (OOB)

    Land:
    3 Rockets (OOB but new economic damage restriction)
    3 Heavy Artillery (5 IPC, 3/2, cross territroy bombardment)
    4 Heavy Tanks (8 IPC, 4/3, takes 2 hits)

    Sea:
    3 Super Submarines (SS 3/3, -1 modifier ASW search roll)
    3 Advanced ASW (+1 modifier ASW search roll, +1 modifier ASW attack roll, planes perform ASW but without +1 modifier)

    Other:
    10 Atomic Bomb
    3 Advanced Radar (+1 modifier Antiaircraft search roll)

    Economic:
    3 Underground Factories (No income interruption from combat, “Income interrupt” amount immune to SBR)
    4 Advanced Production (FTR SS AP -1; DD CA BMR -2; CV BB -3)


  • Moderator

    Is a turn still 3 months?

    The Manhattan project really took off on Oct. 9 1941, and didn’t produce operational bombs 'till July 16 1945… using the 3 month model we get 2 boxes checked off for the US (Fall and Winter of '41) and have an additional 15 boxes to go! That is dealing merely with time differentiation, but I think that should be considered and allow IPC’s to change how fast it takes… The real difference is in the speed you can go at… If there is no limits to the amount of boxes you can overcome then someone will just shove all there money into heavy bombers and then next turn bomb there enemy into submission (you get my gist) and it is just like AaA, just with boxes… Limit the amount of development to historical limits of what was known… For the Atom bomb maybe a max of 2 boxes per turn?

    GG



  • I think Imperious Leader last said 6 months.
    If 10 boxes for Atomic Bomb it’ll now take US average 8 turns with only free dices. Thats 4 years.

    A good point about limiting how many dices you can put on a particular technology each turn.
    Although only US or Germany has a good chance of getting a technology in one turn.
    All the other countries only get 3/4 dices per turn. Technologies are either 3/4 boxes.
    Overall its harder to get technologies I think.
    Maybe need to go back to 2/3 boxes for technologies.

    Remember you allocate your resources (dices) to technologies when you pay for them, beginning of the turn. You roll the dices end of the turn. Tech dices hit on 1 now.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I dont know wher it went but i proposed some change to abilities:

    Research capacity

    Dice cost 5 IPC.

    USSR  1 free + 2 purchasable
    UK 1 free + 1 purchasable
    USA 2 free + 4 purchasable

    Germany 2 free + 3 purchasable
    Japan 1 free + 2 purchasable
    Italy 1 free + 1 purchasable



  • dont know wher it went but i proposed some change

    I was still tuning the proportions (research capacity vs. research boxes) hence I only took the approx. proportions of powers’ research capacity (eg. Germany vs. US) from your sugguestion

    I was wondering if it would be too hard to get techs. Thinking of reducing to 2/3 boxes for techs with a 3/4 dices research capacity for non-US/non-Germany powers.

    USSR  1 free + 2 purchasable
    UK 1 free + 1 purchasable
    USA 2 free + 4 purchasable

    Germany 2 free + 3 purchasable
    Japan 1 free + 2 purchasable
    Italy 1 free + 1 purchasable

    So are you sugguesting those power vs. power proportions?
    Or are you sugguesting capacity vs. boxes proportions? (ie you think techs are too easy)


  • Moderator

    Assuming that the US on a turn it wants to go “techish” then it can on average mobilize 1 box… But in reality they could roll higher… I don’t disagree with that possibility, breakthroughs happen suddenly, but what about being committed to something… There is still that spur of the moment air to the whole tech situation… I would rather have newbies investing in technology that was long term (buy additional research, have to roll and pay for that many dice per turn) and see them get technology quick but no units then for my ally to go spur of the moment waste one turn on teching and realize “OK, that wasn’t a good idea…” In the long run they are more likely to get it, and I think that more accurately depicts what happened… Now if we need to lower the cost of die, then so be it… Possibly even reaching a point where they can exchange so many die for one free tech (little extra cash expended)…

    GG



  • Yeah. 1 box per turn.

    With the proportions again…

    USSR  1 free + 2 purchasable
    UK 1 free + 1 purchasable
    USA 2 free + 4 purchasable

    Germany 2 free + 3 purchasable
    Japan 1 free + 2 purchasable
    Italy 1 free + 1 purchasable

    USSR and Japan are better than UK and Italy. Is that ok?


  • Moderator

    I assume your talking to Imp, not me… Under the standard rules that actually looks pretty good… USSR better then UK? I think you should reverse them

    GG


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    USSR is definatly better than UK! no question at all.

    They created their own Hydrogen bomb by 1949, They had more advanced tanks and artillery. UK only lead is in radar, and naval technology. Latter in the war the Soviet Il-3 and Yak- 3 was as good as a spitfire and the Yak- 17/23 etc were jet fighters only 1 year after UK. The Soviet military complex is close to the united states, while UK was basically an old man on the street corner. As victors they were fully weakened by the war.



  • Well everyone is encourged to give comments about reserach capactiy.

    So now US/Germany can get 1 tech approx. every 3 turns.
    The others can get 1 tech approx. every 6 turns.

    Thats not too slow?
    If so we’ll change it to 2/3 boxes rather than 3/4 boxes per tech currently.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Most of the tech should come in at 44-45 which means in like 6-7 turns. According to your math how many rolls at the new proposal would acquire the needed techs? count the atomic bomb at a 9-10 turn time frame



  • Atomic bomb

    US: 1 box per turn, need 8 boxes, 8 turns
    Germany: 0.83 box per turn, need 9 boxes, 10.8 turns

    Or alternatively they can get 2-3 techs instead in the 10 turns or so.

    Do we allow tech transfer? UK/US? Germany/Italy/Japan?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Possible transfer  from Germany/ Italy and USA/UK but only small stuff  techs with say 4 or less boxes. Major techs no transfer. And no transfer to USSR at all.

    The schedule is perfect with the 8 box thing BTW.

    I dont think it can get any better.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OH and another thing: transfer takes one turn. you get it the next turn as your compatible ally. When you get it its on that turn for use immediatly. The surprise factor is great. Most of the techs were introduced this way.



  • Ok something like this.

    Techs are avaliable immediately for the power who researched it.

    Tech transfer possible
    *minor techs (3 boxes)
    *between US/UK or Germany/Italy
    *one tech per turn, selected in phase 8
    *avaliable from beginning of receiving power’s next turn


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    ok great



  • ok finish off the details of atomic bomb

    bomb cost - 10 IPC?
    build - 2 turns?
    IPC damage - permanently reduce by 1?
    military unit damage - remember one bomb destroys one city only


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    ok finish off the details of atomic bomb

    bomb cost - no special cost
    build - 2 turns each bomb
    IPC damage - permanently reduce by roll of 2d6… this represents the value of destroying the motivation behind fighting knowing somebody is gonna get it.
    military unit damage - remember one bomb destroys one city only… yes it can target military units as well. This may not be that realistic but its fun to play it. So the dropper of the bomb can allocate to land units or reduce economy. If land units each unit in a territory makes a “saving roll” the unit is dead on a roll of 2-3 or less… all units roll even air planes. Also, you need heavy bomber tech to be able to carry it



  • no special costs? free?
    also need a limit to how many you can build
    but it needs to scale to some extent rather than a fixed limit

    More IPC means more control/fortification/assembly points. Atomic bomb affects a limited region.
    But does both economic and military damage. After a nuclear attack units can’t fortify there anymore.

    Economic damage: Attacker rolls 1d6 for permanent reduction of IPC income.
    Military damage: Defender divides units into a number of groups equal to the territory’s IPC income divided by 3. Attacker selects 1 group. Each unit in the group rolls for survival, surviving on a 1.

    (First bomb would kill 1/3 of units in Japan and reduce income. Second bomb would kill 1/2 of units in Japan and reduce income. Third bomb would kill all units in Japan and reduce income to zero.)


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The cost of such a weapon was not something that effected the production of say fighters… it was a cost but not something that could take away from a military budget

    More IPC means more control/fortification/assembly points. Atomic bomb affects a limited region.
    But does both economic and military damage. After a nuclear attack units can’t fortify there anymore.

    Economic damage: Attacker rolls 1d6 for permanent reduction of IPC income.
    Military damage: Defender divides units into a number of groups equal to the territory’s IPC income divided by 3. Attacker selects 1 group. Each unit in the group rolls for survival, surviving on a 1.

    +++++ this is kinda arbitrary… why do the thing where you divide into 3 groups based on this and that…why cant each unit just make one saving roll? So germany is at 20 IPC (with Italy) and you have to make 20 different groups and basically one unit dies? Can a more systematic idea work better.

    (First bomb would kill 1/3 of units in Japan and reduce income. Second bomb would kill 1/2 of units in Japan and reduce income. Third bomb would kill all units in Japan and reduce income to zero.)

    ++++ this is probably good… better.



  • The cost of such a weapon was not something that effected the production of say fighters… it was a cost but not something that could take away from a military budget

    Oh I see. Ok.

    (First bomb would kill 1/3 of units in Japan and reduce income. Second bomb would kill 1/2 of units in Japan and reduce income. Third bomb would kill all units in Japan and reduce income to zero.)
    ++++ this is probably good… better.

    Its the same. Its describing the probable result of my proposed rule.
    My long post confused you.

    Its “divide by 3”. So Japan has 8 IPC, sort into 8/3=3 group. Germany has 20 IPC, sort into 20/3=7 groups.
    This rule works alright for Japan (kill 1/3, 1/2, and then remain military). But for Germany it woud take longer.

    Could tune it to IPC divide by 4. But that kills Japan’s units in two bombs. A bit too powerful.


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