AARHE: Phase 2: Technology



  • @Imperious:

    I did playtest yesterday and no glitches were found.

    No glitches. Just felt submarines hard to kill (without technologies).

    It further brings in the element of siege forcing the enemy to hunt your u boats.

    I don’t feel the “hunt” part though. Like players building fleets of only destroyers/cruisers and run around with them?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Subs should be hard to kill

    after all they now lose their ability to:

    1. be soakers in naval combat
    2. participate with naval units in combat

    Also remember with those advanced asw warfare techs fighters will have the ability to locate and attack and bombers will have the ability to locate… also eventually they locate and hit at 3!  this will simulate the first and second “happy times” for the german Kreigsmarine.

    Playtest thru the war… you can simply just use naval units for this purpose and allow some fixed builds to see what happens.

    you will also notice how once germany gets those super u-boats how they are able to have another happy time.

    PS i use the phrase “happy time” from a reference from world war two.


  • Moderator

    Some Ideas:

    Technology development difficulties are determined by a number on each “box” that you “check off”; during your turn you may invest into research facilities (the secret part of your work) which is hidden somehow. For every player buying Research Facilities cost different amounts for different technologies (reflecting what they were pursuing). Research in one field can also be activated by a particular action (losing a bomber to Jet Fighter activates Jet Development) and possibly gives you a free Research bonus. The Research Facility can only go to a certain level, meaning sometimes you have to upgrade your “research” to “overcome” the new setback…You could even add a gambling element so that players can attempt to have a “breakthrough” without having to upgrade (optional and chancy)… Obviously the higher you get the more expensive it gets… you also need to manage each technology development well because you can only pursue one tech per turn…

    ideas, comments, clarification questions?

    GG


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thats funny because its exactly what we have planned to do. WE are going with boxes for tech and allow some nations to start with some progress in specific areas based on historical progress in specific technologies. Each nation has now free rolls with the allies with a very slight edge. When all the boxes are checked off the tech is obtained and availible that turn. This all is kept secret from other players. Now it will be impossible to waste your game buying all tech just to keep up with the jones’


  • Moderator

    I am covering any issue not addressed in the Draft, and the most “unaddressed” area is Tech’s…

    GG


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    according to Tekky he says we just need NA’s to finish up and also decide on how many boxes these techs should have. also need to know where each nation is on the tech tree.


  • Moderator

    Like development wise how much do you need to complete? I would say that depends on the “importance”… light importance may take 2 turns… 3 for medium and 4 for strong… Maybe longer for “big boys” like A-Bomb… That I think would mainly need to be judged by the individual tech and how it really was developed lengthwise…

    GG


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    each nation will have a private sheet with all techs each tech and what it does will have a number of boxes to be checked. Some nations will have less boxes to check off.

    Also the basic rules covering this will be written on the player aid card.

    as i recall

    Germany gets two rolls per turn, and Japan and Italy get one

    USSR and UK get one roll each, and USA gets three

    additional rolls (max of 1 extra per turn) costing 5 IPC are possible per player, except germany and usa can buy a max of 2 and 3 respectively.

    The techs are:

    Heavy tanks
    Heavy Artillery
    Jet fighters
    Jet bombers
    Heavy bombers
    Atomic bomb
    ASW (planes search- aerial sonar)
    ASW (planes can attack in asw)
    ASW ( all units locate and attack at 3)
    super subs

    plus more

    plus a few others…



  • I hope the list is not endless.
    I don’t think we need separate Jet fighters and Jet bombers.

    We could have for techs that create new units rather than upgrade on an optional list.
    Say if Heavy tanks and Heavy Artillery are not upgrades but new units that fights between and costs more…

    I am covering any issue not addressed in the Draft, and the most “unaddressed” area is Tech’s…

    yeah the draft only have headings for some of those ideas
    its complex and we haven’t come up with the numbers yet


  • Moderator

    How about Advanced Production, reducing the cost of IC’s…? Or Advanced Research reducing the cost of updating your research…?

    GG



  • Advance Production I would consider.
    Advanced Research I wouldn’t. It takes many years to sustantially increase your research capacity (recruiting, training, building facilities and higher education infrastructure…)

    Ok lets really move forward and start drafting numbers…

    Research capacity (dices)

    _Keep in mind our time frame is 6 months per turn 1 year per round.
    Keep in mind what power did in the war.
    Keep in mind most technologies takes more than 1 dice now (but I had to keep techs at 1 dice otherwise we need to blow up the whole thing with many dices to get proportions right)

    Germany during 1942-1945 (3 turns) heavy cannons and missiles (gets antiaircraft), tiger tanks (heavy tanks), acoutic homing torpedo and a bunch of stuff. This would be done with maximum of 24 dices (3 turns x 😎 at 1/6 only 4 hits. Of course Germany has a head-start in a few things. We won’t get it prefect though without making it involve a lot of dices since we now have research “boxes”. But we still reference the historic case.
    US would get max. 30 dices…on average 5 hits._

    Extra dices still cost 5 IPC.

    USSR  2 free + 2 purchasable
    UK 2 free + 2 purchasable
    USA 6 free + 4 purchasable

    Germany 4 free + 4 purchasable
    Japan 2 free + 2 purchasable
    Italy 2 free + 1 purchasable

    Research difficulty

    Number of boxes…

    Again we can’t get the proportions prefect or we’ll end up increasing the free/purchasble rolls and blowing the whole thing up.

    LHTR:
    2  Jet Fighters -> Jet Aircraft (new values already picked)
    2  Rockets
    2  Super Sumbarines
    2  Long Range Aircraft
    0  Combined Bombardment -> REMOVED…now standard
    2  Heavy bombers

    New:
    6  Atomic bomb

    1  Advanced ASW Reconnaissance (+1 modifier to ASW search roll)
    1  Advanced ASW Weapons (+1 modifier to ASW attack roll)
    1  Airborne ASW (NAV gets ASW search/attack roll too)

    2  Advanced Radar (+1 modifier Antiaircraft search roll)
    2  Surface to air Missiles (Antiaircraft attack roll now hit on 1-2, force retreat on 3-6)

    1  Long Range Torpedo (-1 DD’s ASW search roll but not NAV…they can fire from so far away this would be better than +1 SS on attack)
    1  Homing Torpedo (+1 SS on attack)
    1  Diesel-electric Submarines (-1 modifier to ASW search roll)

    2  Underground factories (reduced SBR effect)
    2  Super Battleship (BB now 5/5)
    2  Enigma -> Code breaking

    Optional: (creates new units)
    2  Heavy Tanks (8 IPC, 4/3, takes 2 hits…here we are talking something like Tiger II, expensive, T-34 or M4 hits can’t penatrate frontal armor at any range)
    2  Heavy Artillery (5 IPC, 3/3, fires in opening fire if you have air units…to spot)

    Left out atm:
    Advanced Production (small reduction of naval or air costs maybe…reduced costs for tanks would be game breaking…)
    Heavy Infantry Armament (INF attack at 2? but game breaking…)
    Self propelled Artillery (I tend to think self propelled artillery should be within a tank division…better an Italian NA I think)

    Research progress

    Head start. No point assigning numbers here until we have the numbers with the boxes set.

    USSR:
    UK: radar, code breaking?
    USA: atomic, long range aircraft, heavy bomber

    Germany: atomic, submarine, heavy tank, torpedos, jet?
    Japan: torpedos, battleships?
    Italy:

    Didnt put ASW head start with USA…thinking they stepped up research after being annoyed by U-Boats.
    Didnt put Surface to air head start with Germany…thinking they stepped up research after being bombed day and night.


  • Moderator

    Sounds good…

    Advanced Production:
    All Aircraft cost -1
    Support Vessels (Subs, Super Submarines, Transports) cost -1
    Combat Vessels (Destroyers, Cruisers) cost -2
    Capital Ships (Aircraft Carriers, Battleships) cost -3


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Id add destroyers to the support group. -2 would bring them at 8 and thats too cheap.

    perhaps bombers and cruisers can be in the same -2 group. CA=16, BOM=15

    otherwise it looks good at this point.



  • I am not feeling too good about technology at the moment actually.
    Lots of tuning. Lots of work.

    Good if we could keep it to say 12 technologies.
    Thats already doubling OOB/LHTR.



  • I mean how do we justify a massive increase?
    Good time to decide what are the real major WWII techs.
    So lets say try to keep to 15:

    Air:
    Jet Plane
    Long Range Aircraft
    Heavy Bombers

    Land:
    Rockets
    Surface to Air Missiles
    Self propelled Artillery

    Sea:
    Super Submarines (includes Electric-diesel)
    Advanced ASW (both recon and weapons)

    Other:
    Atomic Bomb
    Advanced Radar

    Economic:
    Underground factories
    Advanced Production


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thats a great list!

    lets now decide how many boxes each tech should have and finally decide how many free boxes get checked off for specific nations.



  • If Jet planes can’t be hit by Antiaircraft because they are too fast…
    then what about surface to air missiles?

    Germany had guidable surface to air missiles in WWII.


  • 2007 AAR League

    How exactly can we fashion an A-bomb without off-setting the game?



  • for starters its gonna have so many boxes
    (US and Germany has start head but there is limit to purchasble research dices per turn
    we’ll tune it so its possible but not probably to get it for some time)

    each bomb is gonna be expensive

    its probably NOT gonna be like the original destroy all military in the whole territory
    thats not realistic
    its gonna destroy some military but more importantly reduce IPC and VCP

    8-) actually getting the technology probably make all neutral join your team 8-)


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    each bomb is gonna be expensive

    its probably NOT gonna be like the original destroy all military in the whole territory
    thats not realistic
    its gonna destroy some military but more importantly reduce IPC and VCP

    cool actually getting the technology probably make all neutral join your team

    +++++It will be very expensive the make an A-bomb in the war we had three and used one to test to make sure it worked. After the last two were used it would take 6 more months to get 2 more. When i say expensive what i mean is we should impose a “build schedule” of say 2 turns for one bomb or one bomb per turn.

    It should only be possible to be dropped by heavy bombers which is itself a tech development.

    Lastly, the bomb permanently reduces the land value of the territory.THe other way to go is to allow it to be dropped on armies forcing them to make a saving roll to survive.



  • yeah since it takes 2 turns to build battleship carrier and cruiser now it should also take 2 turns to build atomic bomb

    I see you also agree with permanently reduced IPC value

    what about VCP? (population)

    and for damage you have to understand they are not all in the particular city you are a-bombing
    so I am thinking only a proportion of all land units in the territory can be hurt

    what do you think about surface to air missiles hitting jet planes?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    surface to air is not for this game. Its too experimental and small scale.

    reducing population VCP could be possible but consider:

    1. even getting the A bomb will be very hard… you would get the thing when the game was pretty much decided

    2. The added complexity of alot of special rules for this will gain how much? Also having such a rule with the very limited nature of these weapons… does reducing the VCP in these cases really make any difference?

    3. If say dropping the bomb reduces the VCP by one point work? 100,000 dead is the basic effect of the bomb.


  • Moderator

    I would say the power of the bomb is the ability to destroy IC’s… and Maybe 2 Infantry… OR cripple IC Production for a turn… That would be devestating…

    GG


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Atomic Bomb:
    Available to any player with both A-Bomb Technologyand and  heavy bomber capability. Only two such weapons of this class are allowed to be dropped and they can only be dropped in original Axis home territories. For the first weapon, roll two D6 sided dice results in permanent loss of IP in attacked territory. The second such weapon allows you to roll three D6. The damage results in permenant IPC damage to your economy. If the target is against enemy ground units then the die result is number of destroyed units. This weapon cannot be dropped in sea zones. Each additional weapon of this type are available every two turns.



  • even getting the A bomb will be very hard… you would get the thing when the game was pretty much decided

    yeah a-bomb would be hard to get but I duno about game decided
    its certainly long into the game but we shouldn’t assume that

    in the case where both axis and allies got the a-bomb do we make the game a draw/peace (win or lose according to national victory conditions) or do we let them have nuclear warfare???

    permanent reduction of IPC income already reduce production capacity implicitly due to our limit of 4X IPC can be spent in an IC in a territory with X IPC income.

    two D6 dice would average 7 IPC and 7 units destroyed???
    that seems a little high to me


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