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AARHE: Phase 2: Technology


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes right but for some measure of playability it has to be some fixed rail if its a fixed number of units as i originally posted it can be made to work as well. otherwise their is no way to model air interdiction because we would need many planes to “choke off” movement paths. Clearly we must just allow double movement in NCM and some fixed movement on a per nation basis… what you think?



  • yeah we could just allow double movement in non-combat-move
    its effects should be quickly revealed in only a little bit of playtesting

    but I think the double movement should be if the path only involves territories friendly at the beginning of your turn, or sea zones friendly at the beginning of your turn…of course both needs to be friendly at the moment 🙂


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Movement by rail only includes movement by land or air units within territories you control. not ones that you took, or are uncontrolled. IN the soviet territories the rail guage was larger so conversion takes 1-2 turns of solid occupation to convert. However this may prove too hard to manage when the Soviets retake german converted rails in the soviet union. Markers will be required?



  • I think territory controlled at the beginning of your turn is good enough as solid occupation



  • back to technology

    so what do you think of my proposal of free rolls (modelling research resource that can’t be diverted into production anyway) and mutliple hits before research is complete (modelling research progression)

    I guess we’ll end up with minor and major tech
    minor tech is 1 hit
    major tech is 2 hits


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I like free rolls and the fact that the other player does not know how close you are to the next tech breakthru. Id also like to see tech basically a rolled thing each turn with each tech having a specific amount of boxes…

    New idea:

    say each nation has a specific amount of rolls ( nation specific number) per turn where it can get the tech which again is a specific amount of boxes to check…

    example USA player has say 6 free rolls per turn… It want the atomic bomb ( counting as 10 boxes) and heavy tanks (counting as 3 boxes)  from previous turns it has allready gotten 3 rolls out of 10 for the abomb tech and 2 boxes checked off for heavy tanks…

    leaving 7 clear boxes for A- bomb and 1 left for the tanks.

    On its turn out of its allotment of 6 rolls it scores twice… it decides to check the final box for tanks ( allowing it to build heavy tanks) and allocates the other score toward the a- bomb tech.

    Also each nation will automatically start with a predetermined number of checked boxes! wow thats brilliant if i say so myself!

    so Like USA could have 4 checks by its own Atomic bomb program, while germany could start at say 2 checks, while germany could have a check at heavy tanks to start out with… IN that way most likely the progression would start historically as it did because obviously some techs would be closer for some nations than others… also important is it still allows any nations to eventually get any tech thats a win /win idea if i ever came up with it!



  • free rolls and progress I’ve mentioned already and think they would be good

    whats new in your idea is the allocation of research hits…which I don’t like
    I don’t think its realistic to let the player allocate hits

    if you want tech A you must buy rolls for tech A
    if you want it this turn (end of this turn) you might buy extra rolls, but you don’t roll over excess hits into tech B


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OK a few points each player gets a specific amount of free rolls, additional rolls can cost money (say 5 IPC). This system i propose could have allocations of what a player decided he wanted to use his sucessful rolls developing. So example: he gets 4 free rolls and decided to spend 10 IPC and rolls 6 times. he will decide he wants 3 rolls on heavy tanks and 3 on the rocket tech… when he suceeds he just marks off the boxes all the while hes closing in on the “magic number” needed to obtain the tech. This is kept hidden from other players at the end of the game you can check to see if he cheated by looking at the total times he was sucessful ( its your job to keep track of his sucess… or you can just trust him)



  • this secrecy aspect can be complicated
    come to think of it the OOB model’s luck already implicitly models secrecy in research progress…and even the power in question is uncertain

    it’ll be quite complicated if breakthroughs are kept secret too

    anyway I am not sure if we should have huge differences between nations free rolls and technology’s boxes

    US and Germany has X rolls, the rest has Y rolls, X > Y
    major techs at M rolls and minor techs at N rolls, M > N


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    this secrecy aspect can be complicated
    come to think of it the OOB model’s luck already implicitly models secrecy in research progress…and even the power in question is uncertain

    ++++ not clear what the idea is here. IN OOB you either have the item after one try or you have nothing… under our system you need to continually advance research untill you obtain it. The other side has no idea how far along the tech path you are so This terrible idea of basically spending all your money on a vegas roll just to keep up with the jones is busted. It will take a period of turns to acquire the tech. That is much better historically, plus you can install natural tendancies based on what a nation was capable of doing realistically in the war. So USA will naturally be closer to completing its atomic bomb before say japan. On its own tech chart it will have say 4 boxes allready checked off, while japan will have say one ( just an example)

    it’ll be quite complicated if breakthroughs are kept secret too

    +++++ HUH? these are not kept secret?

    anyway I am not sure if we should have huge differences between nations free rolls and technology’s boxes

    US and Germany has X rolls, the rest has Y rolls, X > Y
    major techs at M rolls and minor techs at N rolls, M > N

    ++++ the basic idea is adaptable… each nation can have the same amount of rolls per turn and it cost x additional for each extra roll. or each nation can allready have x amount of specific tech boxes allready checked off or a combination of these two. Its a very flexable idea.



  • @Imperious:

    not clear what the idea is here. IN OOB you either have the item after one try or you have nothing… under our system…

    Yeah I know. I am saying progress is built into the luck system in OOB. Except even the power in question does not know the progress. But yeah we can improve it with the new system.

    it’ll be quite complicated if breakthroughs are kept secret too
    +++++ HUH? these are not kept secret?

    By breakthroughs I meant which technologies are complete.
    Not Atomic bomb but a weapon upgrade. Its complete but no one else knows? So you declare it when neccessary in combat?
    Should this be hidden? I think the Japanese know what was coming (Atomic bomb), only they didn’t know when the attack would be.

    the basic idea is adaptable… each nation can have the same amount of rolls per turn and it cost x additional for each extra roll. or each nation can allready have x amount of specific tech boxes allready checked off or a combination of these two. Its a very flexable idea.

    I was saying I don’t know if we should have 5 different setup values and 5 different no. of free rolls for the 5 powers thats all. But it should be ok, just put it in a table. Just now you have to justify all those values which can be complicated. So I was sugguesting just X or Y no. of free rolls and M or N no. of boxes….rather than A, B, C, D, E no. of free rolls for the 5 powers.



  • By the way last time I played we made it 2 free rolls per turn and nothing else changed.
    And then no one bought additional technology dices.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OK heres an idea. lets see what you can come up with as the different techs, then we can sort out who gets some advantage in each department. It will take some time to sort out.

    simply the techs are:

    1. atomic weaponry
    2. rocketry
    3. super subs
    4. long range airplanes
    5. jet planes ( fighters and bombers)
    6. heavy bombers
    7. super tanks?
    8. advanced sonar
    9. ASW tech level 1,2,3
    10. advanced Radar
    11. underground factories
    12. ??? please add…


  • do we actually need to have sonar and ASW separate?

    Sonar improves DD’s sbu-detection as well as screening ability?
    ASW lets planes attack submarines?

    advanced radar…is that ground combat radar, and/or coastal defense, and/or air combat?

    underground factories? I feel this should be an IC upgrade purchased rather than researched


    how are we doing for the major/minor tech thing?
    just major/minor tech, or actually wide differences from 4 to 10 boxes?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    do we actually need to have sonar and ASW separate?

    ++++ well sort of… naval sonar allows ships to better locate those subs and ASW is the ability to fight subs with specific weapons… so yes they are different

    Sonar improves DD’s sbu-detection as well as screening ability?
    ASW lets planes attack submarines?

    ++++ it improves detection… not screening ability

    ASW allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack ships in conjunction with ships its a perfected technique.

    advanced radar…is that ground combat radar, and/or coastal defense, and/or air combat?

    ++++++ ground radar allows you to see and react to planes coming overhead. For the game it can possibly allow DAS in the same round rather than having to wait one round for planes to assist.

    underground factories? I feel this should be an IC upgrade purchased rather than researched

    +++++ The practical value could be better efficiency and -1 on all armor and plane costs… please list what you think all these tech should be. id say about 15 items



  • @Imperious:

    ASW allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack ships in conjunction with ships its a perfected technique.

    You meant “allows planes eventually to have the ability to attack subs in conjunction wit ships” right?

    ++++ right

    ++++++ ground radar allows you to see and react to planes coming overhead. For the game it can possibly allow DAS in the same round rather than having to wait one round for planes to assist.

    What happens if attacker does not send planes?  :?

    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    underground factories? I feel this should be an IC upgrade purchased rather than researched
    +++++ The practical value could be better efficiency and -1 on all armor and plane costs…[/quote[

    Cheaper units? I was thinking more like resistance to SBR and our “production interruption”.

    +++ ok that would work how would the production thing work in that case?

    [quote]please list what you think all these tech should be. id say about 15 items

    You’ve covered pretty much everything. Except computers, which is quite major.

    But this one is tough to model.
    Stronger attack can’t be justified, not even with D12 system.
    Quicker attack organisation can’t be modelled currently, with no time limit per turn.
    Only thing would be certain technologies should be easier to research after you’ve got “computer” technology.
    These would probably be atomic, rocketry, jet, sonar and radar.

    ++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?



  • lol try not to reply in the form of moderating my post, because I can’t tell from the forum page whether you’ve replied!

    What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support? And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?

    ++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?

    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.

    Hence I was thinking certain technologies should be easier to get with computer power. One book mentions electronic computer would have speed up the Mahattan project. (Among with theories that US government always had more computing power than we know…)


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    lol try not to reply in the form of moderating my post, because I can’t tell from the forum page whether you’ve replied!

    +++++ SORRY BOUT THAT… had limited time so i took a quick way

    Quote
    What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support?

    +++ good question! I think defending planes should be allowed to defend ro come in on the second combat round if adjacent. Yes so DAS  works under either contition.

    And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?

    ++++yes

    Quote
    ++++ how does computer tech apply? you mean the enigma machine? the machine that was decoded by british intelligence?

    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.

    ++++ hmmm not sure about its relavence in this format… with details explain how it could work?

    Hence I was thinking certain technologies should be easier to get with computer power. One book mentions electronic computer would have speed up the Mahattan project. (Among with theories that US government always had more computing power than we know…)

    +++++ with this im really not sure its purpose… Ok how bout you list all the tech possible in this game… state basically all the different techs from both revised and 2nd edition. well go thru the list step by step and weed out stuff and add others.

    on the cuff:

    atomic bombs
    surface to air missiles ( v-2/a-4)
    heavy tanks
    long range artillery ( rail guns)
    artificial harbors (mulberry)
    jet fighters
    jet bombers
    long range aircraft
    super battleships
    super subs ( electro boats)
    ASW 1,2,3
    efficiant factories ( underground?)
    self propelled artillery
    chemical weapons
    naval sonar
    radar
    enemy code broken ( you can react to his attacks with some benifit)
    guided torpedos?
    lance torpedo ( used for shallow waters)
    better weapons ( mp44 submachine gun?)



  • @Imperious:

    What happens if attacker does not send planes? 
    +++ lol then the defender does not play any DAS mission.

    Oh, so DAS is only for dogfighting not ground support?
    +++ good question! I think defending planes should be allowed to defend ro come in on the second combat round if adjacent. Yes so DAS  works under either contition.

    And once attacking air force is destroyed DAS air force retreats?
    ++++yes

    When can you send DAS if the enemy attacks with air units only? land units only? both?

    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?

    Now finally back to where we started….technology!

    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?

    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.
    ++++ hmmm not sure about its relavence in this format… with details explain how it could work?

    Yep that was what I mentioned too. I was only considering its effect on acquiring other technologies.

    +++++ with this im really not sure its purpose.

    Well it speeds up other acquiring of certain technologies.

    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).

    atomic bombs
    surface to air missiles ( v-2/a-4)
    heavy tanks
    long range artillery ( rail guns)
    artificial harbors (mulberry)
    jet fighters
    jet bombers
    long range aircraft
    super battleships
    super subs ( electro boats)
    ASW 1,2,3
    efficiant factories ( underground?)
    self propelled artillery
    chemical weapons
    naval sonar
    radar
    enemy code broken ( you can react to his attacks with some benifit)
    guided torpedos?
    lance torpedo ( used for shallow waters)
    better weapons ( mp44 submachine gun?)

    I would probably cut out “chemical weapons” and “better weapons”.
    And I hope we could have just “ASW” not 3 levels.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    When can you send DAS if the enemy attacks with air units only? land units only? both?

    +++++Das can be sent when the attacker is attacking you with either or both land units and planes.

    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?

    +++++ This is not exact interpretation of the rule as written: DAS is allowed to stay and help its units defend untill the attacker has broken off the attack. At this point the attacker will probably retreat w/o his own air support… but if he wants he can continue.

    Now finally back to where we started…technology!

    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?

    ++++++well not exactly the one round thing is if the planes are adjacent and not actually in the attacked territory. This promotes disbursement of your air force and a more historically realistic strategy.

    Quote
    Oh no just general computing power. It is used not only for decoding but also gun fires, attack planning, etc…instead of relying on mathematicians.
    ++++ hmmm not sure about its relavence in this format… with details explain how it could work?
    Yep that was what I mentioned too. I was only considering its effect on acquiring other technologies.

    Quote
    +++++ with this im really not sure its purpose.
    Well it speeds up other acquiring of certain technologies.

    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).

    +++++ AHHH! i didnt see that coming! thats a good idea… i would rephrase it because the word computer was not really in use at this time.

    Quote
    atomic bombs
    surface to air missiles ( v-2/a-4)
    heavy tanks
    long range artillery ( rail guns)
    artificial harbors (mulberry)
    jet fighters
    jet bombers
    long range aircraft
    super battleships
    super subs ( electro boats)
    ASW 1,2,3
    efficiant factories ( underground?)
    self propelled artillery
    chemical weapons
    naval sonar
    radar
    enemy code broken ( you can react to his attacks with some benifit)
    guided torpedos?
    lance torpedo ( used for shallow waters)
    better weapons ( mp44 submachine gun?)

    I would probably cut out “chemical weapons” and “better weapons”.
    And I hope we could have just “ASW” not 3 levels.

    +++++ ok on asw we only really need:

    1. something to allow the use of planes in ASW search
    2. something to allow fighters/divebombers ability to attack subs in asw
    3. something to say “your sucess roll for asw search and destroy has gone up from 2 to 3”

    thats it… i was using asw 1,2,3 for simplicity.

    “chemical weapons” and “better weapons” would probably be left out but i included what i thought should be at least possible and hence considered. what can you add to that list?



  • @Imperious:

    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?
    +++++ This is not exact interpretation of the rule as written: DAS is allowed to stay and help its units defend untill the attacker has broken off the attack. At this point the attacker will probably retreat w/o his own air support… but if he wants he can continue.

    Ok so DAS air force can retreat at time. But must retreat when attack (or defender) retreats completely.

    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?
    ++++++well not exactly the one round thing is if the planes are adjacent and not actually in the attacked territory. This promotes disbursement of your air force and a more historically realistic strategy.

    if planes are adjacent?
    So “reduce by” rather than “remove” 1-combat-cycle latency? But DAS must be from adjacent territories right?

    not actually in the attacked territory?
    Are you saying DAS can be from the territory itself? But don’t they just fight normally? To say those air units are doing DAS as well would be confusing.

    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).
    +++++ AHHH! i didnt see that coming! thats a good idea… i would rephrase it because the word computer was not really in use at this time.

    Ok good.

    +++++ ok on asw we only really need:

    1. something to allow the use of planes in ASW search
    2. something to allow fighters/divebombers ability to attack subs in asw
    3. something to say “your sucess roll for asw search and destroy has gone up from 2 to 3”

    thats it… i was using asw 1,2,3 for simplicity.

    Ok I see….so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    what can you add to that list?

    Mech infantry?
    Some of our new units can be purchasable after technology acquired?
    Say did everyone have dive bombers at the beginning?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 08:54:31 PM
    If DAS work for both dogfighting and ground support then why should DAS air force retreat after attacking air force is destroyed?
    +++++ This is not exact interpretation of the rule as written: DAS is allowed to stay and help its units defend untill the attacker has broken off the attack. At this point the attacker will probably retreat w/o his own air support… but if he wants he can continue.

    Ok so DAS air force can retreat at time. But must retreat when attack (or defender) retreats completely.

    ++++yes exactly!

    Quote
    If DAS is also possible if attacker do not send air units…then “ground radars” no longer remove the 1-combat-cycle response latency of DAS?
    ++++++well not exactly the one round thing is if the planes are adjacent and not actually in the attacked territory. This promotes disbursement of your air force and a more historically realistic strategy.
    if planes are adjacent?

    So “reduce by” rather than “remove” 1-combat-cycle latency? But DAS must be from adjacent territories right?

    ++++ yes the idea does not seen correct but the idea has to do with positioning of forces… trying to force the players to get away from big stacks of plastic and break it down into smaller armies… anything i can do to facilitae a player to place his air force in different stacks the better. where his air units goes so does his land stacks to protect them.

    not actually in the attacked territory?
    Are you saying DAS can be from the territory itself?

    +++++ thats the most common way from the same territory you perform DAS the one combat round latency thing is for adjacent territories where it has to fly from to the attacked territory.

    But don’t they just fight normally? To say those air units are doing DAS as well would be confusing.

    +++++ any plane thats defending land units by engaging attacking air units is performing a DAS mission

    Quote
    So if you have the “powerful computer” technology, successful rolls now give you 2 boxes instead of 1 (for certain technologies).
    +++++ AHHH! i didnt see that coming! thats a good idea… i would rephrase it because the word computer was not really in use at this time.
    Ok good.

    Quote
    +++++ ok on asw we only really need:

    1. something to allow the use of planes in ASW search
    2. something to allow fighters/divebombers ability to attack subs in asw
    3. something to say “your sucess roll for asw search and destroy has gone up from 2 to 3”

    thats it… i was using asw 1,2,3 for simplicity.

    Ok I see…so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    +++++ yes exactly i am not sure of the language to describe it but yes…

    Quote
    what can you add to that list?

    Mech infantry?
    Some of our new units can be purchasable after technology acquired?
    Say did everyone have dive bombers at the beginning?

    ++++++ the new units are on the optional list as per duke… but yes all nations had tactical fighters that specialized in attacking tanks with a single bomb underneath the fuselage. each nation had its own name for it. The divebomber suits the bill for a name thats acceptable.



  • +++++ any plane thats defending land units by engaging attacking air units is performing a DAS mission

    The definition is a little confusing,
    I mean the defending air units may not even be engaging attacking air units. Since we can “DAS” even if the attacker does not send air units.

    Maybe just call it “air support” or something. I mean there is no different in “offensive air support” or “defensive air support” anyway…besides for fighting values.

    Air support is just “dogfighting” and “air superiority bombing”.

    Ok I see….so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    +++++ yes exactly i am not sure of the language to describe it but yes…

    Some possiblities:

    Airborne sea scanning radar - asw search for planes
    Aircraft searchlight and sonobuoys - +1 asw search for planes

    High frequency direction finding - +1 asw search

    Ahead-throwing anti-submarine weapons - +1 asw attack for ships



  • On the other hand we could have

    Submarine fuel and stealth:  -1 asw search


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The definition is a little confusing,
    I mean the defending air units may not even be engaging attacking air units. Since we can “DAS” even if the attacker does not send air units.

    ++++ DAS occurs any time the defending player uses air units to defend attacked territories. If the DAS support mission is to come from an adjacent territory, their is a one combat round penalty… thus they can participate on the round after they are called in. Thats it… their is nothing more complicated. If they stay where they are thats fine too. Defensive air support is the correct terminology for this. When the attacker uses planes its called close ground assault mission… and thats the correct terminology as well.

    Maybe just call it “air support” or something. I mean there is no different in “offensive air support” or “defensive air support” anyway…besides for fighting values.

    Air support is just “dogfighting” and “air superiority bombing”.

    +++ thats slang words… we are using historical terminology…nobody ever said: “just go out and dogfight enemy planes”

    Quote
    Ok I see…so something like…

    1. -> naval radar?
    2. -> air dropped depth charge?
    3. -> ***?

    +++++ yes exactly i am not sure of the language to describe it but yes…

    Some possiblities:

    Airborne sea scanning radar - asw search for planes
    Aircraft searchlight and sonobuoys - +1 asw search for planes

    High frequency direction finding - +1 asw search

    Ahead-throwing anti-submarine weapons - +1 asw attack for ships

    ++++ again this is not proper terminology… if we dont know exactly what its called we have to resort to a generic name… that is not the case in air missions. The nomenclature must be accurate and realistic…


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