AARHE: Phase 2: Neutrals


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    This thread is for new rules for neutrals and how they interact inder AARHE.



  • Neutrals should become soft constraits to game strategy rather than the current hard constraits.

    Some should have different income values too under the control of the 2 sides.



  • Just my second post… But i’m reading the topics about this Historical edition and like allot of it…  I don’t know if it is OK that I reply here, or that it will be of any use… we will see…

    I have some thoughts on Neutrals;

    First I think there’s was no such thing as a Neutral country in the War.  One was more neutral then others but they all had contacts with both Axis & Allies. I think neutral countries should be included with IPC values and there own forces.

    Both Axis and the Allies will have the opportunity persuade Neutrals to their side. However the Axis should have a head start. Countries like Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and Argentina all had strong connections with the Germans ( Spain and Swiss also with Italy) Countries like Venezuela and Peru should be leaning to the Allies, but are far less valuable.

    In the first three years of the war, Sweden and Switzerland helped Germany allot. ( Later in war, they moved more to the Allies) They allowed transports true their land (railway) and delivered essential goods for their war industry. Switzerland also white washed German money.

    Proposal for rules;
    When Germany is in controll of at least all it’s own territories then they are allowed to persuade some Neutral countries into joining their side in the war.  To do so the German player should roll one dice and for each 1 or 2 rolled the attempt is successful, and the Neutral and all of its colonies will join their side. ( on the revised map Portugal is part of Spain, so I think their colonies of Mozambique, Angola and Rio the Oro should belong to Spain) All troops and the IPC value now belong to Germany or should be controlled like Minor Axis like Romania and Finland for example. For every 3 rolled they receive only their IPC value for that round. On a 4 or higher the attempt failed. (maybe this is to high and should it be 1 and 2 but I also want a militairy option for the Axis) The German player is only allowed 1 roll of the dice per round, and only for 1 country per round. Spain should be the strongest militairy I think.

    Axis should also be allowed to attack neutrals without having to pay for it. The difference with dicing for it, will be that there are no territory restrictions. They can attack at all time, only colonies will not (or the mainland if colony is attacked  join them. But join the Allies as free forces.

    Allies are never allowed to attack neutrals. After joining a side, their neutrality ends and then also Allies are allowed to attack.

    There should be more thinking about troops, IPC values and Allies rules for preventing more countries joining the Axis. But maybe this is something to use…


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Please feel free to post in any thread you can contribute in. This project is for EVERYBODY AND FROM EVERYBODY it is a public gift to axis and allies fans of every corner.The more people working on this the better. If we take on many people then we will have to assign out sections to be completed by specific teams. Right now we only have about 5 members.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    good ideas except in revised some of the spainish territories you mention are not on the board! But those rules are what we are looking into. WE only use the word “Neutral” because its a term from the game. What our intention is to draw on some basic rules for taking these territories in revised and adding some framework to incorporate military forces and alliances to either the axis or allies based on historical conditions. Spain can be Germanys ally is say the germans can take the top half of afrika and the suez and perhaps the caucasus as well. Turkey would involve similiar results be the german player before he can roll the die. places like afgans and other nations can be “influenced” by either side…



  • I like the idea of some countries joining allies if attacked by axis.

    Duno about making allies can’t attack “neutrals”.
    There are no “good” guys.

    All “neutrals” can be attacked by force by either side it should just a matter of its effect on other neutrals and loss/gain of IPC due to diplomacy, morale, and sentiments.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    yes right the Americans occupied the Azores and violated this sovereign nation. I think the proper thing is to allow the allies to influence these nations into war by paying some “fee” representing some aid agreement. Then they get the value and the forces can be picked up and used.



  • Yeah the pre-4th-edition rule of playing fee is actually realistic representation for some situations.



  • @Imperious:

    good ideas except in revised some of the Spainish territories you mention are not on the board!

    I just checked my board again, and Rio the Oro (Spanish Morocco), Angola and Mozambique are all part of the Revised board…

    Reading the example of the U.S. invading the Azores… the Allies should indeed then also be able to invade “Neutrals” In 1941 the UK and some Soviet troops had invaded “Persia” to secure Oil and transportation routes to Russia. The same thing the UK did with Iraq.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Rio the Oro is not the same as Spanish Morocco but basically what is on the board can be Spainish allies



  • Sorry You’re right, I meant Spanish Sahara…

    But back to the Neutrals.  Maybe Sweden should start the game with giving 2 IPC each round to the German Player, reflecting their support to the German war Industry. Germany didn’t really need Sweden and Switzerland to become full allies, their neutrality had some pro’s as well. However, both German and Italy tried to convince Franco of Spain several times to join the Axis site as a extra buffer on the western front (Help for Germany) and to close the Mediterranean for UK ships. (Help for Italy)
    This could be separate goals in the game for the German and Italian player to persuade Spain into the war.



  • So under what condition should Sweden switch side?

    *Axis IPC drop below a certain level?
    *Allies control of nearby territories?

    Someone can give me a history lesson.

    Would Sweden switch back under certain conditions?  😄


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Sweden should continue aid to germany at 2 ipc untill the allies control finland and norway… that isolation would have forced “Neutral Sweden” into a more neutral track



  • Well the Norway territory includes Norway and Finland I think.
    So should it be a condition on the control of Norway and that SZ which isolates Sweden?



  • Afghanistan, Asia

    Angola, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.

    Argentina, South America

    Himalaya, Asia: Air units allowed to fly through?

    Mongolia, Asia

    Mozambique, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.

    Peru, South America

    Rio De Oro, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.

    Sahara, Asia: All units allowed to go through but not stay?

    Saudi Arabia, Asia

    Spain, Europe

    Sweden, Europe: Germany received 2 additional IPCs until Norway is first captured by Allies?

    Switzerland, Europe

    Turkey, Europe

    Venezuela, South America



  • any comments?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Afghanistan, Asia

    Angola, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.

    Argentina, South America

    Himalaya, Asia: Air units allowed to fly through?

    Mongolia, Asia

    Mozambique, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.

    Peru, South America

    Rio De Oro, Africa: All units allowed to go through and stay.

    Sahara, Asia: All units allowed to go through but not stay?

    Saudi Arabia, Asia

    Spain, Europe

    Sweden, Europe: Germany received 2 additional IPCs until Norway is first captured by Allies?

    Switzerland, Europe

    Turkey, Europe

    Venezuela, South America

    in every case a value needs to be assigned where perfect neutral is zero, positive =allies influenced, axis =negative influenced
    also an index of the nations forces needs to be established and rules about DOW and values assigned to them.



  • oh yeah
    something like

    -2 axis can stay
    -1 axis can go thru
    0 neutral, geographic difficulties (eg. Himalayas)
    1 allies can go thru
    2 allies can stay

    or if inadequate we’ll need to specifically declare
    movement/reside/none for axis and allies

    for geography
    should you allow land units to enter Himalayas at all?
    can units stay in Sahara at all?

    Afghanistan, Asia:

    Angola, Africa:

    Argentina, South America:

    Himalaya, Asia: 0

    Mongolia, Asia:

    Mozambique, Africa:

    Peru, South America:

    Rio De Oro, Africa:

    Sahara, Asia: 0

    Saudi Arabia, Asia:

    Spain, Europe:

    Sweden, Europe:

    Switzerland, Europe:

    Turkey, Europe:

    Venezuela, South America:


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    -2 axis can stay
    -1 axis can go thru
    0 neutral, geographic difficulties (eg. Himalayas)
    1 allies can go thru
    2 allies can stay

    …. not sure … i was thinking to have -7 thru 0 and up to +7 for a total of 15 values. perfect neutral is 0 and the range of neutrality is -2 thru +2… pro allies +3—+7 and pro axis is -3-----  -7  each of the five levels has a specific value to benifit either side.



  • Do you need that many distinctions?

    I mean besides letting a team’s units travel thru or stay in their territory, and income (like Swedan to Germany) what other effects are there?

    We could go all the way and have situations like Allies can’t invade a “neutral” which is minor Axis, unless Axis units are there…


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    OK heres an example:

    Somehow Spain falls from neutral -2 into -3 which is slightly pro axis.

    -3= Air units can fly over this neutral
    -4= You gain the neutrals money (consider it aid)
    -5= Your armed forces can move thru this neutral w/o penalty
    -6= The neutral now allows its armed forces to be involved in attacks against adjacent country’s
    -7= The neutrals economy and armed forces are now in direct control of the coalition they are aligned with… these forces can be sent anywhere the player wishes.

    this would be the same hierarchy for axis or allies.
    the allies would be positive integers
    specific events would trigger a neutral status roll… e.g. taking a neighbor over by conquest would allow a roll.

    the “die roll” consists of each side rolling once … whoever wins gets the status moved up or down the neutral scale… modifications for as i said taking a country next to the neutral or taking out a major player or VC… many things could happen.



  • possibly too much to monitor

    though I the levels/distinctions you’ve outlines is quite reasonable
    but you’ve left out the case of just air bases
    so air units can move through as well as stay

    was there a historic case, or is it a reasonable hypothesis…of a “neutral” letting both axis AND allies aircraft to fly though it?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Their is no such case. I thought further on this…

    Germany gets 2 rolls
    USA gets 2 rolls
    UK gets 1 roll
    japan and USSR get zero rolls

    each turn one neutral can be targeted for change in status: if you roll a 6 or higher the neutral nation moves closer to align with your camp. Only one roll per neutral and each territory you own adjacent to this territory gives you a +1 modification on the roll.

    some neutrals are at perfect zero, while others are either up or down the scale. Once a nation passes into your camp… then the other side cannot convert it back. so if a neutral is at -3 its in the axis camp no matter what.

    I will prepare other modifications based on if you own a specific nation to model history.

    the idea works very well… because say the allies move argentina toward becoming an ally… the axis can counter on its turn and attempt to move it back into neutrality.

    this sounds cool!



  • adjacent territories

    eg. being surrounded by Axis, Switzerland is not going to switch to pro-Allies

    frequent switching

    ensure neutrals don’t keep switching sides…because that wouldn’t be right  😐

    occupying forces

    the status of a neutral should freeze if there is occupying forces

    levels

    how about just

    -3 full axis, no longer neutral, invadable by allies
    -2 axis forces can go thru
    -1 income to axis
    0 neutral
    +1 allies ditto
    +2 allies ditto
    +3 allies ditto

    income

    Afghanistan, Asia: 1
    Angola, Africa: 0
    Argentina, South America: 1
    Eire, Europe: 0
    Himalaya, Asia: 0
    Mongolia, Asia: 1
    Mozambique, Africa: 0
    Peru, South America: 1
    Rio De Oro, Africa: 0
    Sahara, Asia: 0
    Saudi Arabia, Asia: 2
    Spain, Europe: 3
    Sweden, Europe: 2
    Switzerland, Europe: 1
    Turkey, Europe: 2
    Venezuela, South America: 1


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    They cant “switch”… reread my last post… once its in your camp thats it… On the issue of switzerland they would be at zero which requires 3 movement points to get it in your camp, plus they would only get about one infantry as forces and a economic value of say 1…so bottom line it would be a waste of your roll for the value in return. The battleground would be turkey, sweden, spain, south america and naturally some are closer to the axis camp than allies while others are pro allies or neutral +1 or +2


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