AARHE: Phase 2: Units

Yep phase 2 those are related to.

So why is it 20 and 10 for BBs and DDs anyway?

I agree! These changes make the naval unit purchase more balanced.

What about the realism aspect?
Should BB cost twice as much as DD?

I am wondering if BB should in fact cost more…seeing so few were produced…what was it again? 700 vs. 8?

It’s not like BBs at twcie the price of a DD is even money. The destroyers would be worth more than half a BB (although priced half) and the BBs should still never be purchased unless you are adding the purchase to a huge fleet and are not expecting the enemy to usually get more than 1 hit (very rarely will this hapen).

In pure BB vs. DD its now equal I think. DD has been reduced to attack of 2.

enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present.

I proposed earlier that destroyer advantage vs. submarine can be modelled by depth charge. If the submerged submarine is detected destroyer may throw depth charge at it!

now they can’t submerge? I can see the argument for saying that DD can attack submerged subs, but I can’t see how a DD is stopping a sub from submerging.

So are you going to have it that a DD can keep attacking a submerged sub forever without penalty?

What exactly was wrong with the sub warfare as I had it? DDs can attack subs 1 round after they submerge. After that round, the sub has escaped combat.

Oh no that was just the baseline from LHTR/OOB.
We haven’t gotten around to change it.
We have to change it.
It makes no sense to stop the submarine from submerging.

Destroyer attack on submarine for once on submerging is ok.
But I think it should be allowed to resurface again. Its hide and seek with submarine warfare. Not once encounter and be done for all.

I was under the impression that the sub sneaked in to attack the convoy. Sometimes an escort would find them before they did this, and other times only afterwards. Either way, once the sub was being chased by the escort, it was outta there! That was just my impression. Do you have any sources that say that subs kept attacking after they were detected and being chased down?

@theduke:

Do you have any sources that say that subs kept attacking after they were detected and being chased down?

Yeah! I watch this documentry show about u-boat attacking convoys.
And there was some hide and sneak.
I think it was like once they submerge they can turn off the engine and simply “disappear”.
So its not so much a “being chased down”, you only get a short period of time to kill/chase.

I think we shouldn’t focus on whether to allow submarines do this (something they can physically do) but to model detection and depth charge so player work with historic limits rather than arbitary limits. Players would then work like WWII generals for the most of the game.

Well, well, here we go. In my opinion a fully loaded AC is always the best buy, but it need to be complemented due to the enemies. If your enemy goes for navy, then buy subs, if your enemy goes for air then buy another fully loaded AC. The fighters on board the AC can replace the shore bombardment of BBs, more or less IMHO. If the enemy buy subs then I buy one DD, but just one. The reason for this is simply that a fully loaded AC is the best buy for defens, and subs is the best buy for attack. The shore bombardment is good, but two fighters would be almost as good for amphibious assaults. The hit and run engagements for BBs, were damaged BBs retreat and self repair, is good when one play against a bad opponent. A good player who buy according to my suggestions and stack the fleet to one sea zone, will have the odds to win big time! The best thing happens when the enemy goes for navy and you have bought a lot of subs and your opponent are pleased with his odds against your fleet. The very next thing you will do is go for Supersubmarines (ca 30 IPCs of investment) or just another 4-5 subs!

No frankly, the BBs and DDs need some extra spice to make them desirable IMHO. I don’t know how to counter this problem, but I do have suggestions. Like those mentioned before. A 2/2/2 DD (8IPCs) would be dominant and brake them game, since it would be the best buy for both defens and attack. Why would someone buy a SS (submarine) when one can buy a DD for the same price, but the DD can defend against air. If your enemy buys a DD the opening fire for your SS would be lost, hence no benefit for buying any SS.  Another thing is that 3 DD (2/2/2) would be a much better buy then a BB, so the price for the BB need to go down, 20 IPCs (for reasons not disclosed right now).

Well, there is still one Q to answer and a problem to solve. The problem is how the subs could be more desirable My first thought is to take a look att the rules for subs in A&A:E were subs were not susceptible to air attacks without destroyer presens. Another feature from A&A:E is the interdiction ability of subs. Since there are no convoy centers, my suggestion is a rule that would do (see “Convoy Raids” below). So now that we have found a possible solution to the problem, that would make the subs desirable irrespective of the improved DD and its submarine disruption ability. Ok great, but what about the Q; Will BBs and DDs be desirable at all? Well, they are still very much the same type of units but improved. It is now a tough choice between a DD in defens or fully loaded AC, and between BBs or DDs in attack se below:

DD ( 360 IPCs)

Att: 245 = 90
Def: 245 = 90
Hits: 45

AC + 2 Ftr (360 IPCs)

Att: 101+203 = 70
Def: 103+204 = 110
Hits: 30

BB / 20 IPCs (360 IPCs)

Att: 184 =72
Def: 184 =72
Hits: 36

If DDs are not allowed for shore bombardment the BB will probably be the best choice as long as no subs are around.  An extra spice to the BBs would be an opening fire ability in conjunction with an inability to hit subs, meaning subs can never be hit by BBs. That is goody goody and the 24 IPC price for a BB would be acceptable. Well, it was just a thought! In defens ACs would still be the choice along with some cannon fodder, now not only SSs but DDs as well. But in defens, I would buy mostly DDs. DDs are simply the best balanced allround piece to buy and will therefore most likely be the mainstay in the fleets. More over, subs will now be important for special reasons like the transporters or more likely bombers, to “sink” IPCs from your enemies like bombers in SBRs! Ok, I think that’s it! The bottom line is no cruiser unit is needed. Belive it or not, the fewer pieces the better it gets, since the game is pretty messy as is ;-)

Convoy Raids

The U.K, U.S. and Japanese players are susceptible to supply line interdiction. This rule imply that enemy submarines may conduct an economic attack against the supply lines (sea zones) adjacent to any of these nations industrial complex to “sink” IPCs. On the U.K, U.S. and Japanese players collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPCs to the bank for each enemy submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex contolled by respective nation. For each enemy submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC. Any submarine that became submerged during the subjected players turn’s conduct combat phase, does not cause any economic loss. Multiple submarines may affect a single industrial complex, but the maximum combined loss can be no more than the territory’s (containting the industrial complex) income value. An individual submarine may only affect one industrial complex during each turn, but can affect multiple industrial complexes each round (i.e. one industrial complex per player).

This is what I am looking at…

Only DD, FTR, BO can attack SS and only when they are detected

–>DD can roll one additional dice to throw depth charge at one detected SS

–>Otherwise planes can attack detected SS in the new naval opening fire

BB’s opening fire should only the long range batteries.
–>BB has opening fire on naval units as well as first round anti-aircraft fire

–>SS may resurface at a later combat cycle after submerging, while submerged it cannot be detected

@B.:

If the enemy buy subs then I buy one DD, but just one.

I was looking at changing the detection system. Due to saturation of sonar/radar I reckon the probably of detecting a particular enemy SS depends on the number of friendly destroyers, and importantly not on the number of enemy submarines.
Something like 1 DD then SS detected on a roll of 1…2 DDs then SS detected on a roll of 2…etc

Either way we won’t let one DD automatically detect all SSs in a SZ like in OOB and the tactic of buying one DD won’t happen.

Convoy Raids… On the U.K, U.S. and Japanese players collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPCs to the bank for each enemy submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex contolled by respective nation. For each enemy submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC.

This is pretty standard and is in several varients.

I don’t it like though because of logics.
Why are you forced to transport material (IPC) to a particular factory (IC)? And why are you forced to do so via sea?
It creates strange situations.
Like I am not even building units at that IC yet it suffered convoy raid.  :|
Check the income thread for related ideas I proposed.

Its hard to say whehter those are good prices without considering what changes to put in.

Does you buy my suggestions about SS DD BB etc?

Yeah they are huge and bold changes.

Final draft for phase 1

(Duno if we planned to have any of the changes for phase 1…)

DD costs 10 IPC

BB costs 20 IPC, now fires in opening fire

AA still costs 5 IPC, now called ID (Infrastructure defense), may have more than one ID per territory. Each ID has two AA (Anti-aircraft) rolls and two CB (Coastal battery) rolls.
An AA “search” roll selects and targets an enemy aircraft in opening-fire and succeed on four or less. An AA “attack” roll selects a found enemy aircraft in opening-fire and hits on one or less. An ID may not use two AA “attack” rolls on the same enemy aircraft.
A CB “search” roll selects an enemy transport in the opening-fire of land portion of amphibious assault and succeed on four or less. A CB “attack” roll selects a found enemy transport in the opening-fire of the land portion of amphibious assault and hits on one or less. An ID may not use two CB “attack” rolls on the same transport.

IC has new costs, includes 2 IDs built-in.

Its a rush job and not well thought through yet.

Let me see…do all “search” rolls before "attack rolls. This models your fixed defense policy/reaction as to fire at found planes or to search for more potential targets.

Two rolls CAN go against the same plane but the same ID piece cannot spend the more than one “attack” roll against the same plane. This models planes flying by and you only have limited time to shoot at it. However fixed defense can still shoot at later flying by planes.

With CB replace “enemy transport” with enemy infantry. (I thought of this after summary of your amphibious assault but forget to change it. Infantry as first waves to secure beach before artillery and tanks.)

By the way we need to add this other thing I thought of earlier, to prevent IDs from shifting around like OOB’s AA.

Placed ID on its side when first built. It may not fire yet but can move in non-combat. In any mobilisation phase you may turn it upright. Now it may fire but cannot move anymore.

Anyway, to cut it short since Imperious Leader keeps saying phase 1 is over  :-)

Final draft for phase 1

DD costs 10 IPC

BB costs 20 IPC, fires in opening-fire

AA still costs 5 IPC, but may have more than one AA per territory.
In first round opening-fire each AA selects an enemy air unit indepedently and rolls a “search” dice detecting on 4 or less. Then each AA selects a unit independently among the detected enemy air units to rolls an “attack” dice hitting on 1 or less.
Place AA on its side when first built. It may not fire but may move in non-combat. Turn it upright in any mobilisation phase including the the one it is mobilised in. It may now fire but may not move again.

IC includes 3 AAs built-in.