AARHE: Phase 2: Units



  • The figure is from Max Hastings’ book “Bomber Command”. Hastings is a very respected war correspondent, Falklands etc and his research is pretty good. There’s similar info from Speer available in Galbraith etc.

    Yep, you’re right, the women and kids (well teenagers) were in the cities. Because the Germans didn’t use women in industry like the allies did, their work in AA wasn’t such as loss to war production. The amount of guns and ammo WAS significant I think.

    I think the idea that ICs have their own integral AA is a good one, and it would free the AA guns to be moved around in the role of mobile AA - or even used alongside the IC so they IC has its own AA PLUS the AA gun as well.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Ok i ask you both this:

    Why arent AA guns represented in basically any other strategic wargame? I dont see where they are used in Third Reich or and classic wargame from SPI… so why are they even represented in a game which is soo abtracted in every respect than many games… how does this level of abstraction indicate a need a a specific AA gun piece, where clearly this need wasnt found in far more complicated and empassing games covering the same scope of the war???



  • Perhaps it’s just 'cause people don’t think AA guns are cool.

    Look at the way people go mad for jet fighters, which (if I remember right) shot down a mere 150 or so  allied aircraft. It’s nothing in the scheme of things, but people want to play with cool weapons.

    Same with Tiger tanks….overall arguably a minus for the Axis because they cost to much and were so unreliable, but most games seem to include them.

    In one way, the AA gun does hit too hard…in reality, fighters and night fighters were much more of a problem. If you don’t have AA, though, it’s too easy to just build lots of bombers knowing they’ll take no losses.

    Maybe the answer is to reduce the effectiveness of bombers and AA, but that doesn’t fit A&A well.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes and all the other units you mentioned are found in other wargames. they comprise tiger tank battalions, tank destroyers, heavy artillery, assault guns… and yet no AA guns are found…



  • Hey you two don’t get carried away :lol:

    Forget other games. You started this mod to fix things. Not to meet the mass market.

    Forget “cool”. Lets contine your arguement on historic basis.



  • Back to it…

    Is it a typo or why doesn’t BB take 2-hits anymore?

    I think increasing DD’s attack just because SS is present is flawed. It would be strange when 3 DDs attack 3 DDs + 1 SS. The attacking DDs gains an edge for no reason. I think every 1 DD nullifies 1 SS’s abilities and thats good enough.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    A BB takes two hits as does a cruiser. A question remains as whether we are gonna give BB a premtive shot each round. So if they hit a ship its sunk and cannot fire back.That would be great for the BB. This represents long range guns.


  • Moderator

    No I don’t think that is wise… Ships would try to maneuver into their “range” and the “pre-emptive shot” is merely a BB advantage while it has the range… Now some BB’s were faster then their DD counterparts, but in this game, I think that giving them this advantage would discredit a vast majority of Naval encounters during '39-'45…

    my 2 cents

    GG


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Ok in what way are BB’s getting too much value with the preemtive shot? They had larger caliber guns than all other ships and the range of these guns was much greater than say a DD, plus it reinforces the idea that  if you buy more expensive units, you get more in return for your dollar and thats one of the core values that unts should have. Spend money to get something better in return. So for each point of firepower your spending in large quantities the cost per point goes down.


  • Moderator

    OK, I see your point… If this is the case then I would make AC’s 2 hit (I think you already have that in place I just thought I’d mention it)… Their Advantage does not extend to Aircraft we are merely talking about ships here correct?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    thats correct.


  • Moderator

    Why do Light Carriers (equivelants of Escort Carriers?) carry as much as Big Carriers? Most Escort Carriers carried 20-30 Aircraft compared to “Big” Carriers which Carried 70-80…

    GG


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I think that they should have only one plane, but that looks like a waste… Another idea is to 1) scrap escort carriers or 2) increase carriers fighter cap to 3 planes and light carriers to 2 planes. Those original ideas are just a rough sketch of what might be possible. what do you think we should do with them? Consider the naval fighters idea i think they will fit in well. if we bump up the fighter capacity on carriers.


  • Customizer

    I dont like the idea with more unit types - more pieces! How ever at a glance the Mech Inf and  Heavy Art looks balanced! I would prefer a tech system for these units.  😉


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Thanks for your comments… The basic idea was to offer them as optional units under phase 2… The value of some of these units is more necesary than others admitedly. The “list” includes all the possiblities so i dont expect more than 4-5 units seeing the light of day.



  • I am leaning towards e fewer new units and fewer map changes.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I would add that under phase one we just make like one unit per nation at a cheaper scale and NOT any new units… under phase two we add new NA’s and under the optional rules we add about 4-5 new units. That way the new units is only something that is optional in a latter stage.

    Andersson since you dont like new units… if you had to come up with something under optional rules what would you introduce?

    Cruiser?
    SS panzer?
    paratroopers?
    mech infantry?
    air transport?

    grace us with some of your cognitive exploits.



  • I recall the argument that major paradrop operations failed.
    Good exmaple were often missions on a tactical level only.


  • Moderator

    Hence the rules I added… You could just make “counters” to put under units to represent the units you can’t make… It is easier to print 50 counters then to pay for shipping



  • Are you talking about “counters under units” to represent new units?


  • Moderator

    yes… SS Panzers for example could have a (SS) Chit under them…


  • Customizer

    Once again there is no need for more units, make nation specific instead!



  • Doesn’t matter.
    Unless Imperioius Leader releases pretty chips or printout  8-) everyone’ll do there own things to represent.

    Let start thinking about costs of units.

    Many varients reduce cost of naval units such as the battleship.
    Is that realistic?

    This is going to be difficult as naval pieces represents fleets and no simple to compare.



  • @B.:

    Once again there is no need for more units, make nation specific instead!

    Yes, but therefore we are doing several phases. Phase 1 doesn’t include new units, but does have nation specifics. Phase 2 however will have new units. And if someone doesn’t want to buy other units he/she could indeed use counters or just stick to the phase 1 rules.

    Anti tank weapons something for new unit? But I personally think that you will be needing a D12 system for that, otherwise I don’t see how we can justify them instead of buying ART or Armor.

    Dive bombers: Same problems;

    I also like the list mentioned;

    Cruiser? Could use MB BB ships
    SS panzer? Could place counter beneath it.
    paratroopers? Just paint some helmets
    mech infantry? counters or buy jeeps or halftracks
    air transport? could use the bomber indeed.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Dive bombers= use fighters from milton bradley

    I also like the list mentioned;

    Cruiser? Could use MB BB ships…. yes
    SS panzer? Could place counter beneath it… paint them black… easy
    paratroopers? Just paint some helmets…or buy one box of 1/72 scale paratroopers or put a counter underneath
    mech infantry? counters or buy jeeps or halftracks…yes exactly… all nations used halftracks except japs… they can use trucks instead
    air transport? could use the bomber indeed… yes milton bradley bomber

    This is an important reason why its feasiblew to have these pieces… because we all ready have many of them!


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