Once and for all: Escorts and fighters in SBR'S



  • Yeah, this topic has been discussed so many times before….

    But Still, to me, the matter is UN-resolved.

    I’d like to get everyone’s opinion about a rule that would make fighters participate in SBR’s, because we all know they did play an important historic role in WWII.

    My opinion is: During a SBR, any fighters present on the target territory can attempt to intercept an incoming SBR. For each fighter present on the territory, the defending player gets an additionnal AAA roll of 1 or less. Each fighter represents 1 die. (example: UK attacks germany with 2 bombers. There is one fighter present in Germany and no UK escorting fighters. German player rolls 3 dice on a roll of 1 or less: 2 for AAA shooting at each bomber plus one for the fighter trying to intercept. Reason: fighter can’t be at 2 places at the same time…)

    For every escorting fighter, the defending fighter’s roll is Canceled, but AAA still fires at escorting fighter.

    So in my example, if a UK fighter was escorting the 2 UK bombers, Germany would get 3 AAA rolls: 2 against the bombers, one against the fighter.

    Of course, this is only a rough idea, i’d like to hear about you guys.



  • I totally agree that the matter in unresolved. There’s a reason why rules for escorts and interceptors aren’t included in the box rules… it’s really hard to get them just right so they fit in well with the rest of the game. That is to say, they are harder to model in the game then most people initially think.

    Here is a short list of some of the problems that I can come up based on my first impressions of these rules (please don’t take any of this negative feedback in any way other than just constructive criticism in the hopes of improving the rules):

    (example: UK attacks germany with 2 bombers. There is one fighter present in Germany and no UK escorting fighters. German player rolls 3 dice on a roll of 1 or less: 2 for AAA shooting at each bomber plus one for the fighter trying to intercept.

    Flak was responsible for only destroying a small portion of the total number of planes shot down (I want to say about 10% but don’t hold me to that, correction anyone?). The vast majority of planes that were shot down were shot down due to enemy fighters. If UK sends 2 bombers and Germany rolls 3 dice, 2 for flak, then flak will be hitting twice as often as the interceptors. Not realistic at all IMHO.

    For every escorting fighter, the defending fighter’s roll is Canceled, but AAA still fires at escorting fighter.

    Players who use your rules are going to wonder why interceptors can’t be used to defend against SBRs only when escorts are present. What is it about the presence of an escort that keeps interceptors from taking off? If this is a rule just to keep SBR defense from not being too powerful that’s that’s fine but people might not like it cause it doesn’t give the impression of realism IMHO.

    Did you run any calculations on the rules yet? The rules make it disadvantageous to SBR whenever the opponent has any number of fighters present in that territory. Check out my calculations on the avg. number of IPC damage done and let me know if you disagree:

    Out of box SBR rules with a AA gun: 5/63.5-1/615= 0.4

    Your rules with 1 bmb vs. 1 AA gun + 1 FTR: (5/6)^2*3.5-[1-(5/6)^2]*15= -2.15

    Your rules with 1 bmb + 1 FTR vs. 1 AA gun + 1 FTR: (5/6)^2*3.5-[1-(5/6)^2]*12= -0.6

    Conclusion: Anytime there is at least 1 FTR in the defending territory, SBR will actually lose IPCs on avg. for the attacker!



  • Ok, so you think this is too disadvantageous for the attacker. How about this one:

    I admit that just cancelling escorts with interceptors without any actual combat doesn’t make any sense. But if we include combat, it’ll be much more bloody for each side. But hey, it’s war insn’t it?

    Let’s say the Flak fires exclusively at bombers once interception is over, I think this sounds more realistic.

    Now, for the interception itself, I think the interceptors should become the attacker, and the Raiders become the defenders, for ONE CYCLE OF COMBAT ONLY.

    In this single pass (that takes place well before the bombers reach their target) interceptors fire at their normal 3, defending bombers fire at 1 and escorting fighters fire at 4.

    I think this is more appropriate but how deadly…Who will ever do a SBR again? unless…


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The solution is to reduce the combat values for aerial combat. Planes attacking planes is not the same ability as attacking slow moving ground troops.

    Unit As attacker As defender
    Fighter…… 1-2 1-3
    Dive-Bomber… 1 1
    Bomber…1   1
    Jet Fighter… 2X 1-4 2X 1-4
    Jet Bomber… 1-2 1-2

    here is something of an idea. In this case many rounds of seperate aerial combat can occur and not chew up the air force in a single battle. Once the air force of one side are retreated or destroyed… then those planes can attack ground troops at their normal values. Your other idea will lead to much carnage.



  • Yeah, but I really don’t think there sould be more than one round of interception since fuel and time is limited.

    On the other hand, I totally agree on your reduced attack and defence values of aerial combat.

    It’ll be confusing to put that in practice though…But more satisfying than just watch ennemy bombers fly over your fighters, wave at them and then do the strategic bombing…



  • OK, here is the problem with adding interceptors, fighter cover, etc…

    It was not until late in the war (specifically, the introducton of the P-51 Mustang) that Allied bombers had viable fighter escort for bombers.  HOWEVER, the CBO was STILL effective using a combination of daylight precision and nightime runs on German targets WITHOUT figher cover.

    But if you add CAP to the defender, and do not give the Allies automatic LRA by turn 4, then you have set up a circumstance where Axis air defense is, and will remain, superior to Allied bombing for the duration of the war (which is no where near accurate).

    The AA roll of 1 in 6 includes CAP, the limitted FIG escort that was possible prior to the introduction of the P-51 et.al., etc.  Otherwise, if it were Antiaircraft Artillery Only, the die would be 2 consecutive rolls of 1 on a d6 for a shoot down.

    Also, the d6 variable for damage itself incorporates the effectiveness of defending CAP etc.  This accounts for lost bombers on the run reducing total damage (as well as other factors like weather, previous bombing of the site, misses, etc.)

    So… IF you want to include actual combat air patrol and fighter escorting, then any surviving bomber should do automatic damage of 6 IPC’s, since the bomber surviving to target means every single one of 1000 bombers on the raids made it to bomb their targets.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I think the solution does not create the scenario you addressed. The allies in general have more resources to purchase air units, while the Germans are basicially making infantry and tank purchases. The aerial combat values posted in many cases only are for one round of combat, except when they are tied into a land attack in which case one side or the other will achieve air superority after a number of combat rounds. Also, under the proposed system… the defender can retreat his land and air units to avoid destruction. So if those allies are getting a beating and look close to losing air superiority which will soon effect a land battle, then they can retreat. Once one side wins the battle of the sky, then air planes hit ground targets at normal values and ground units can only sit and die. THis forces the side w/o air power to back down. This follows the historical model. Also its important to have air units into or near many adjacent defended territories to provide DAS. Those players who place the entire luftwaffe in afrika will have some problems. Now your forced to defend your land territories rather than finding the perfect “flexible” spot in the middle of your occupied lands. You see the strategy now changes as well and it too becomes more historically accurate.

    Air Combat Sequence:

    1. The attacker moves planes into the defenders territory (along with possible land forces).

    2. Possible Anti- Aircraft rolls are performed in territories with a VC or Complex.

    3. The defender can allocate air units in defense.

    4. Aerial combat occurs for a specific duration of separate combat rounds (as outlined by a specific air combat mission). The combat values of all planes are outlined in the above chart.

    5. Once the defender has either been destroyed or retreats, then the attacker can conduct his original air mission.
      Note: The above air unit values apply to air to air combat. The value of planes attacking land targets is the unit’s normal combat values. In any case after clearing the skies of enemy air units you may now perform one type of air mission summarized as follows:

    6. Tactical Air Command Missions:

    A. Close Air Support
    The use of planes to support ground attacks is a basic use of airpower. Each Fighter or Dive-bomber can aid one armored unit with a +1 attack modifier at a 1/1 basis.  Defending ground units can call on DAS if they have fighters in range (see below).

    B. Interdiction
    Each Bomber can attempt to stop the movement of enemy units out of a given territory. The Bomber is placed into the space until the following turn when it can then be used for further missions. For each Armor class unit that attempts to move into or leave the space is subject to a roll of one D6. A roll of 1 and the unit is destroyed. A roll of 2-3 and the unit may not leave the space that turn.

    C. Air Transport
    Bombers can transport up to two Infantry units from one territory to another (of any type). The transport path can be over either land or sea zones. All air transport is done during the non-combat movement phase.

    D. Airborne Assault
    Only Airborne Infantry can carry out such missions and a drop cannot be greater than two territories from any friendly unit. Bombers are the only units that can drop such units. And they cannot perform any other functions on the turn they drop Paratroopers. Note: No more than two paratroopers can be dropped by each bomber per turn. Paratroopers must start out on the same space as the Bombers that carry them.

    During the phasing players turn the defender also has a number of actions that they can undertake as follows:

    E. Defensive Air Support (DAS)
    During Ground Combat Resolution, defending fighters may move to an adjacent territory and participate in the defense of friendly ground units being attacked. Movement of these units takes one full combat round before they can be used. (Example: On round one, the defending player announces that he will dispatch fighters and on round two they are used in combat). All air units then fight combat rounds concurrent but separate to the current ground combat rounds. Aircraft called up for DAS missions are not committed to fight a minimum number of combat rounds. For example: defensive Air Support was called in on combat round one and ready to fight on round two, but the defender rolled very poorly on his first round and decided to call off DAS and not risk losing his planes. At the end of ground combat resolution, surviving Defensive Air Support (DAS) units must return to their original territory, if possible. All hits and loses from air combat are taken from those participating air units until 1) only one side has planes, 2) one side retreats their planes, or 3) one side retreats his ground units thus ending combat. Note: planes that “retreat” do not get a free parting shot from enemy planes. If one side has planes left over the hits can be applied to ground units for the duration of combat rounds. On their own turn they can still move into new combat missions, but they cannot perform multiple defensive air functions such as DAS and coastal defense. Only one action can be done on their turn, and one action delegated in a defensive action during another players turn.

    F.  Maritime Coastal Defense
    During Naval Combat Resolution, defending air units (including bombers) may move to an adjacent sea zone to participate in the defense of friendly naval units being attacked, or where defending naval units are conducting combat against enemy naval units that have ended their movement in the defender’s sea zone (including during amphibious assaults). Movement of these units takes one full combat round before they can be used. (Example: On round one, the defending player announces that he will dispatch fighters and on round two they are used in combat). At the end of naval combat resolution, surviving coastal defense air units must return to their original land territory, if possible.
        Air units may provide coastal defense even if the land territory they are from is under attack.  They may provide coastal defense, defend the land territory, or provide strategic air defense; they may not do more than one.  At the end of combat resolution, if the territory a defending air unit flew from is captured, the air unit must fly to the closest friendly territory within its flight range. If no friendly territory is available, the defending air unit is eliminated.

    1. Strategic Air Command:

    A. Strategic Bombing Run
    Each player can bomb enemies Industrial Complex as follows: 1) each bomber (and possible escorts) moves over a targeted IC. 2) The defending player can fire any AA shots on each plane and/or he can call in defensive air support for one round of air combat. 3) Each surviving bomber rolls two D6 with the result equaling the number of IP that is lost from defending players next turn. When you attack/perform SBR attacks you take of the money from those nations IP balance. An IC may lose more IP than its printed value.

    B. Air Escort
    All air units (except bombers) may accompany moving bombers or naval units as far as their range allows them and participate in air combat, but they may only enter two sea zones to the target territory and two sea zones when returning from the target territory.

    C. Strategic Air Defense
    Directly before strategic bombers roll for damage on an IC, defending fighters in the territory may defend against bomber (and their escorts, if any) with one round of combat. Defending Industrial Complexes have a built in AA gun defense against each attacking air unit. The strategic bombers and their escorts can only target defending fighters (and not any ground units). Any surviving bombers may then bomb the IC.



  • @ncscswitch:

    OK, here is the problem with adding interceptors, fighter cover, etc…

    It was not until late in the war (specifically, the introducton of the P-51 Mustang) that Allied bombers had viable fighter escort for bombers.  HOWEVER, the CBO was STILL effective using a combination of daylight precision and nightime runs on German targets WITHOUT figher cover.

    I don’t think that’s a fair thing to say, while it’s true it wasn’t until late in the war that viable escorts came into being, it was not because of any technological lacking but because they weren’t put into place. That sounds like a tactical choice a player can make.



  • If we start to model escort fighters, it would tie down our fighters. One could only reasonably use it in conjunction with a normal attack.

    This is weird. Maybe we can look at what actually happened in the war? Maybe the bombers flew really high and bombed at night so fighters don’t get to intercept? Thats why the whole city turned off lights at nights? Or maybe the damage isn’t modelled properly in the game (should be much greater?)

    I reckon its the latter.

    *production capacity is reduced temporarily after an SBR
    *unused income needs to be lay on the map as chips
    *stockpile IPCs can be attacked not only the territories income value



  • Oh yeah this relates to Imperious Leader’s idea of “connected IPCs”. And I also think we need to model the fact that you don’t get total freedom is WHERE to spend your IPCs.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Im sorry but that idea come from The Duke… It does not matter really whatever is best will be on the final submission. everybody has a chance to contribute… everybody



  • Just read this on About.

    “Though superficially it appeared to work, postwar figures showed that German production actually increased during the peak of the bombings. Was strategic bombing a flop?”



  • @ncscswitch:

    OK, here is the problem with adding interceptors, fighter cover, etc…

    It was not until late in the war (specifically, the introducton of the P-51 Mustang) that Allied bombers had viable fighter escort for bombers.  HOWEVER, the CBO was STILL effective using a combination of daylight precision and nightime runs on German targets WITHOUT figher cover.

    But if you add CAP to the defender, and do not give the Allies automatic LRA by turn 4, then you have set up a circumstance where Axis air defense is, and will remain, superior to Allied bombing for the duration of the war (which is no where near accurate).

    The AA roll of 1 in 6 includes CAP, the limitted FIG escort that was possible prior to the introduction of the P-51 et.al., etc.  Otherwise, if it were Antiaircraft Artillery Only, the die would be 2 consecutive rolls of 1 on a d6 for a shoot down.

    Also, the d6 variable for damage itself incorporates the effectiveness of defending CAP etc.  This accounts for lost bombers on the run reducing total damage (as well as other factors like weather, previous bombing of the site, misses, etc.)

    So… IF you want to include actual combat air patrol and fighter escorting, then any surviving bomber should do automatic damage of 6 IPC’s, since the bomber surviving to target means every single one of 1000 bombers on the raids made it to bomb their targets.

    Sorry ncsc, but your idea that the allied heavy bombers was “effective using a combination of daylight precision and nightime runs on German targets” is incorrect according to the evidence as far as I can see.

    Try reading the United States Strategic Bombing Survey. As JK Galbraith (the main author of rthe final version) admitted in his autobiography, it was politically influenced in favour of the bombing campaign. In fact, the whole basis of the strategic campaign was flawed.

    The costly “battle of the Ruhr” in '43 reduced german steel consumption by 10%, but at the cost of 872 aircraft……each one containing some of the best-educated, longest-trained men the British had, in an extremely expensive bit of equipment.

    Put it this way…they dropped (with VERY low accuracy) 58,000 tonnes of bombs, and lost about 20,000 tons of PLANES (872 planes at about 25 tons unladen each…OK maybe that should be reduced as some Wimpies may still have been shot down alongside Lancs, Stirlings and Halifaxes)!!!

    So to put it in perspective, about 1/4 of the total weight of stuff hitting the ground was crashing British bombers. Does that sound like a successful effort?

    All to reduce production by 4 to 6 weeks that year - when Germany had no massive problem with industrial capacity as they almost always had plenty in reserve.

    The US daylight campaign was also unable to destroy German defence or industry until escorts arrived.

    The famous Schweinfurt ball-bearing factory raids reduced production by 38 and 67%, but the Germans just used existing stock or redesigned gear. The official US report says that “there is no evidence that the attacks on the ball-bearing industry had any measurable effect on essential war production.”

    And yet these raids - which cost the Germans no measurable effect - cost the Americans about 60% of the B17s used. The US official report says “repeated losses of this magnitude could not be sustained; deep penetrations without escort, of which this was among the earliest, were suspended.”

    That’s “no measurable effect” For the loss of about 300 B17s.

    Similarly, the US campaign against the German aircraft industry in 1944 was “a decisive victory for the German fighters” according to the US’s own official historian (Frankland).

    So the US official reports themselves say the campaigns failed.

    As Speer said, the allied effort was “vast  but pointless” and had “no important effect on the German war effort by early 1944”.

    By the end of '43, German war production had increased to three times what it was in January 1942. Yet more evidence that the allied SBRs failed.

    If we’re going to try to enhance realism, we should make sure we’re heading int he right direction - that means doing research.



  • Thats not too hard to model.
    Just let fighters defend SBRs.

    We’ll already made production capacity more realistic but limiting IPCs spent at an IC rather than no. of units.
    So maybe SBR should destroy IPCs as well as reduce production capacitiy.

    Actually, what if we purchase at the END of your turn, and pick which ICs to build them with. At the beginning of your turn some of the units may be destroyed while building and you never got to use them.  😄 Thats pretty cool on the timeline.


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

  • 2
  • 1
  • 19
  • 13
  • 46
  • 7
  • 6
  • 7
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

47
Online

14.0k
Users

34.4k
Topics

1.4m
Posts