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Dutch naval units for ABDA possibilities?



  • Good evening, all…I just picked up a small assortment of orange Dutch pieces because I wanted to explore the possibility of adding a couple units to the Java SZ ala’ the short-lived ABDA forces that were historically formed after the initial time frame for Global40. I have no intention of messing with the mechanics of the money islands by proposing adding Dutch ground forces, just a couple naval units. Historically, the Dutch East Indies naval contingent of the ABDA forces was decently substantial in size, but I don’t want to go overboard…maybe just a cruiser and destroyer, just for the fun of having a couple orange ships in the area, perhaps, but maybe to add an interesting little twist to the early part of the game, too. I’m not opposed to tweaking the British and/or ANZAC naval forces to compensate if adding a couple extra Allied ships might alter the balance too much but I’m hoping I won’t have to. One of the things I was considering but haven’t figured out yet was leaving them off the board until a state of war exists between Japan and the ANZACs, so as to avoid unbalancing things by being able to pre-stage them in a more advantageous SZ than off Java, but I’m wondering if this over-complicates things too much.

    Anyone have any thoughts on this? Realistic number of units and unit types that might be acceptable? Possible changes to Japanese forces to keep or restore balance? Ideas on when/where to add them? I did look through the forum a bit for ideas/suggestions in past threads but I didn’t scan all 170+ pages; I did find this one helpful:

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=19613.0

    …but it doesn’t have much to about a Dutch naval aspect so I thought I’d take a shot and see what y’all have to say.

    Thank you in advance.

    Rob.



  • Historical: Each island had infantry with AA. The Dutch Pacific fleet had transports and subs with surface ships.



  • In Global War 1936-1945 there are Dutch ground units and ships around the money islands and that works for that game.  And in Global '40 the Axis are at a pretty big advantage (bid of like 30-50 in favor of Allies to balance it out) so I don’t think that like 20 IPCs of ships would be game-changing or anything.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    I ageee taht a few units would help with balance.
    Perhaps an Inf on Java amd a DD amd Sub in the SZ. Not a TT. The Inf should stay on Java.



  • Per Charles DeGaul’s 1940 setup with 20 powers he uses the following setup.  Since most to the powers added are on the European side of the board you could play test how the Dutch addition alone would work in your game.  Here’s the link- https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=41398.0

    And here’s the setup.  Notice Japan gets extra units as well and the allies aren’t allowed to “landgrab” the money islands.  This may be overkill from what you are imagining but I think it’s super cool.  8-)

    Setup:
    Belgian Congo: 1 infantry
    Sea Zone 106: 1 cruiser
    United Kingdom: 1 fighter
    Borneo: 1 infantry
    Java: 1 infantry
    Sumatra: 1 infantry
    Celebes: 1 infantry
    Dutch New Guinea: 1 infantry
    Sea Zone 42: 1 cruiser, 1 submarine
    Formosa: +1 Japanese infantry
    Hainan: +1 Japanese infantry, +1 Japanese artillery
    Sea Zone 34: +1 Japanese cruiser
    New Guinea: +1 ANZAC infantry


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    I agree with at least 1 Dutch inf on the 4 money islands and 1 Dutch inf on New Guinea.
    Place a Dest and transport off coast of Java. If Japan doesnt attack that Dutch fleet you get to save a transport and move Dutch Inf. Gives Anzac a lil help if that is possible in G40.

    I know The Dutch have 5 naval ships off coast of New Guinea in HBG 39 game but we have Japan sneak attack that fleet so Dutch dont get a return shot first round of combat.

    Check History on Dutch Navy. Then apply to game. Maybe a Dest and Sub for Dutch ?

    My game I have 2 Dutch Inf on 4 money Islands each with 1 Dutch Inf on New Guinea. As Carson and Charlie have stated I have more Japan Inf in my setup.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The Netherlands had grandiose pre-WWII plans to build three battlecruisers for its navy, specifically pegged to serve in the Dutch East Indies as a counter to the Imperial Japanese Navy, but those plans never went anywhere and the Dutch navy’s DEI contingent remained quite modest; I think its main units consisted of something like three cruisers, most or all of which were light cruisers if I recall correctly.  So I think that your idea of adding “just a cruiser and destroyer” sounds okay; I wouldn’t go above that.


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    I just read they had 4 cruisers 10 or so destroyers and 15 subs. But some of that got killed during the 1942 East Indies attack. Also the Dutch had decent tanks. They fought well in some islands. So I may add 1 tank to 2 islands and take away 1 inf.

    Side note. Dutch had better guns on there boats small stuff but the Germans and UK copied them for U-Boats and Dest and such. The Dutch were ahead of there time.


  • 2019 2018

    I don’t know about infantry, armor, cruisers or destroyers, but the Dutch should have at least one well-camouflaged minesweeper:

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=42015.0

    😄


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @The:

    I don’t know about infantry, armor, cruisers or destroyers, but the Dutch should have at least one well-camouflaged minesweeper:

    This would actually be a very economical unit to add because you wouldn’t even need to buy an HBG sculpt to depict it; you could simply say, “it’s on the map board, but it’s so well camouflaged that you can’t see it.”


  • 2019 2018

    @CWO:

    @The:

    I don’t know about infantry, armor, cruisers or destroyers, but the Dutch should have at least one well-camouflaged minesweeper:

    This would actually be a very economical unit to add because you wouldn’t even need to buy an HBG sculpt to depict it; you could simply say, “it’s on the map board, but it’s so well camouflaged that you can’t see it.”

    I feel another house rule coming on…


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    @The:

    I don’t know about infantry, armor, cruisers or destroyers, but the Dutch should have at least one well-camouflaged minesweeper:

    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=42015.0

    😄

    Yes they had a bunch of them. But not ready to put sea mines in game yet.  😄



  • Wow…a lot of good input here.  🙂 Thank you so much, guys.

    Upon consideration, I think my initial setup will be a cruiser, destroyer, and sub off Java.

    Having been persuaded to use some land units after all, I’m going with:

    3 inf and 1 artillery on both Sumatra & Java.
    2 inf on Celebes.
    1 inf on Dutch New Guinea.

    Reasonable, or maybe 1 inf too many on Sumatra and/or Java?


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    I think that is far too much; sorry.



  • @wittmann:

    I think that is far too much; sorry.

    Okay…I respect that. What if I remove the sub and both artillery, which, in hindsight are Kind of superfluous… leaving:

    3 inf  on both Java & Sumatra
    2 inf on Celebes
    1 on Dutch New Guinea

    …plus the cruiser & destroyer in SZ 42?

    I’m not married to the idea of an inf on DNG…so if the above are still a bit too heavy, then maybe only  2 inf on Java & Sumatra, 1 inf on Celebes, and none on DNG. Better?


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    @MauserBob:

    @wittmann:

    I think that is far too much; sorry.

    Okay…I respect that. What if I remove the sub and both artillery, which, in hindsight are Kind of superfluous… leaving:

    3 inf  on both Java & Sumatra
    2 inf on Celebes
    1 on Dutch New Guinea

    …plus the cruiser & destroyer in SZ 42?

    I�m not married to the idea of an inf on DNG…so if the above are still a bit too heavy, then maybe only  2 inf on Java & Sumatra, 1 inf on Celebes, and none on DNG. Better?

    Too much.

    Sumatra - 1 Inf
    Java - 1 Inf      1 Destroyer 1 Sub  sz
    Celebes - 1 Inf

    Borneo ? G40 got that UK/FEC controlled ? That part is wrong. Brunei was controlled by UK and Borneo was Dutch when Japan invaded right after Pearl Harbor.
    Brunei and Borneo should be a 2 separate territory island.

    Maybe try 2 Inf in Java and see if Anzac fighters land there and you can keep control of it. If you do bring over the Anzac AA gun to Java too.

    You want to add a bit at a time and play test it or play a game or 2 and then maybe add an inf or 2. But if you put to much Dutch stuff down there then Japan will never get some islands and or Keep.

    Just some thoughts.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    Less is better , I believe. I do think Japan is far too powerful, so throwing in a few more Allied units to that theatre, is an attractive solution.



  • Sounds good. I think I’ll go with that.
    Thank you all for the input.  🙂


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