USA to Italy


  • TripleA

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.



  • Any particular fleet we should be looking at?

    Is this just to take the Africa coast away from Italy or looking to attack Italy itself?


  • 2018 2017 '16

    Kill Italy First.

    I’ve been saying that for a long time and it’s the goal of both my US and UK strategies. When you hit with both you can take N. Italy and S. Italy on the same turn which makes it impossible for Germany to take back. Rome is not Berlin or Tokyo but you might be amazed at how quickly the game turns into the Allies favour when you take the little brother out back behind the woodshed and take his lunch money for the rest of the game. It’s almost impossible to stop them from doing it if they make a concerted effort. Other than sending a ton of German troops down to Italy early and not to the Russian front, the only way to try and stop it is doing Sealion. It’s as close to a guaranteed win for my Allies as you can get if Germany does Sealion.

    Kill Italy First!!


  • 2018 2017

    losing italy does little, the can opener is already on the way

    the allies can do this with 100% commit without much trouble, but it leads to a deeper and deeper boondoggle while japan gets threshold and they dismantle russia 3 v 1


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    A KIF is allways nice but also ugly.
    If you fail it will also mean that you are a couple of rounds behind on Euro side.

    Please outline the minimum purchase for Naval and Invasion forces for the US, Cow.
    The rest is of course depending on the occuring situations.

    Bmbr buy will be 4-6 units i assume?

    AetV


  • 2019 2017 '16

    Ok, let’s take one of my recent Axis games. I unfortunately lost my fighters attacking the French fleet in SZ93 I1. No Taranto or Vichy. Buys as Italy:
    I1: art, marine
    I2: DD, ftr
    I3: inf, 2ftrs
    I4: 5inf 1ftr
    I5: 6inf
    I6: DD, inf, arm
    I7: 4inf, ftr
    I8: inf, 2art, 1ftr
    I9: 3inf, DD
    I10: art, ftr

    Anyway, with a J2 DOW:
    France1: North Italy taken!
    USA2 Brazil was activated.
    USA3, Gibraltar liberated,
    USA4, Morocco taken. UK4 Italy’s fleet was crushed
    USA5, Tobruk stack hit, at the cost of some fleet.
    USA6, Land on Normandy.

    Long story short, I cannot see how Italy was ever in danger of losing Rome. When USA gave up on turn 6, Italy had 10 inf +1GerInf in N Italy, 3inf 1marine 2AAA 4ftr 1bomb in S Italy. It’s 4 transports (1arm and no art) couldn’t hit either force with worthwhile odds.

    What should USA do differently to take it? Bypass Brazil? Is it only a strategy for a J1 DOW game?



  • In my last game, the Allies went KIF but I had quite good success fighting back as the Axis by pursuing a Dark Skies strategy for Germany buying lots of strategic bombers. This enabled me to sink the American ships and keep them at bay while Moscow was steamrolled. We are not expert players and I am sure the Allies could have been more effective. Nevertheless, I think Dark Skies is a viable counter. What are your guys’ experience?



  • You could try the Japan/Med strategy.

    J1 harbour in Hainan. No war. Fleet merge at Hainan.
    J2 move whole fleet to India without war.
    J3 take Persia and/or Iraq
    J4 take Egypt
    J5 takes the whole starting IJN into the Med


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    Wouldn’t you block sea zones with british if japan move to india sea zone end round 2? I would


  • 2020 2019 2018 Customizer

    @oysteilo:

    Wouldn’t you block sea zones with british if japan move to india sea zone end round 2? I would

    You can only do that by declaring war on Japan and by doing so the USA will not be involved in the war until after round 4.

    I like the Italian focus on the European theater, but with an aggressive Japan that should be done quickly to at least have the US spend some in the Pacific and hold Hawaii and Sydney.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    No, you put a ship in 78 and one in 79. No iraq or Persia j3



  • @oysteilo:

    No, you put a ship in 78 and one in 79. No iraq or Persia j3

    That only works if UK and Japan are at war.  If Japan didn’t declare, that means UK would have to for the blocking to work.  Once they do that, Japan can attack and it doesn’t bring the U.S. into the war early.


  • 2020 2019 2018 Customizer

    @oysteilo:

    No, you put a ship in 78 and one in 79. No iraq or Persia j3

    As long as Japan and UK are not at war, Japan may ignore UK ships. Hence they will not block any Japanese fleet movement


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    @Cow:

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.

    Cow is talking about STEP’s not rounds and about the US to Kill Ita First.
    Has not much to do with Japan.
    Therefore it would be interesting to know what to buy for this Step Plan starting with the minimum.
    Like in every other Plan i see pro and cons…


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    This is an interesting idea. My first thoughts are:

    1. You want to make sure that the US takes Southern Italy. The US has the money to build at the factory and the UK typically does not. This would also make it easy for the US to reinforce Egypt, the UK, and the Middle East with fighters each turn.
    2. I find it hard to reconcile this with having enough force to also deprive Germany of Norway and Finland. While the Axis-to-Allies IPC swing is almost much the same, Germany having 50 IPCs and Italy having 10 is better for the Allies than Germany having 60 IPCs and Italy having none. If you do swing enough force into the Med to take Italy and also swing enough force in the North Atlantic to secure Norway, then you must be leaving the US weak in the Pacific.
    3. From my experiences playing the Axis, I was quite happy to not liberate Southern Italy and just collect IPCs for Northern Italy myself (especially if I could hold Northern Italy). I haven’t seen that from the Allied perspective though.

    I would want to see this in action before I made any broad commitments on how well it works though.

    Marsh


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    @Tjoek:

    @oysteilo:

    No, you put a ship in 78 and one in 79. No iraq or Persia j3

    As long as Japan and UK are not at war, Japan may ignore UK ships. Hence they will not block any Japanese fleet movement

    You are sort of right that if british and japan are not at war then the japanese can move past those ships. However, that means they can not take Iraq/Persia J3, because they are not at war and I think that was the meaning behind the post. If Japan declares war J3, then those ships will block and prevent japan from taking Iraq/Persia


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    I think that’s only the case if Iraq has been taken over by the British. If it’s still a pro-Axis neutral, then Japan does not need to declare war to activate it. If for some reason you were saving it for Russia, it Japan can indeed make the Middle East interesting.

    Strangely, when I tried it UK Pacific felt compelled to turtle up immediately – three loaded TTs off India and three more off Hainan, along with all the Japanese fleet, is a persuasive force – it certainly looks like you’re going to for a fast India kill, and the UK has no choice but to try to deploy it’s blockers easterly to keep those Hainan transports from making India. That leaves precious few UK ships that can block in a westerly direction unless you pull them from the Med, and that also makes life interesting in the Middle East…

    There are some tradeoffs – it pulls a lot of resources away from the Pacific proper. However, when I tried it I wound up taking all of sub-Egyptian Africa and even though the Allies were doing a KJF I was still pulling in a lot of money as a result. The US was having great difficulty containing Japan because of the African money.

    Marsh


  • 2019 2017 '16

    @Marshmallow:

    This is an interesting idea. My first thoughts are:

    1. You want to make sure that the US takes Southern Italy. The US has the money to build at the factory and the UK typically does not. This would also make it easy for the US to reinforce Egypt, the UK, and the Middle East with fighters each turn.
    2. I find it hard to reconcile this with having enough force to also deprive Germany of Norway and Finland. While the Axis-to-Allies IPC swing is almost much the same, Germany having 50 IPCs and Italy having 10 is better for the Allies than Germany having 60 IPCs and Italy having none. If you do swing enough force into the Med to take Italy and also swing enough force in the North Atlantic to secure Norway, then you must be leaving the US weak in the Pacific.
    3. From my experiences playing the Axis, I was quite happy to not liberate Southern Italy and just collect IPCs for Northern Italy myself (especially if I could hold Northern Italy). I haven’t seen that from the Allied perspective though.

    I would want to see this in action before I made any broad commitments on how well it works though.

    Marsh

    1 - yes
    2 - no one said you would simultaneously take Norway. I think killing Italy will be challenging enough. I agree that the US will probably be weak in the Pacific while doing this.
    3 - fair enough. Sounds a good decision if you weren’t going to be able to hold Rome.

    I also am curious for a suggestion on how this is actually achievable. With reasonable builds in Italy, seems to me that they have enough to defend a reasonable sized invasion force.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    Agreed, I think once the first round or two of can openers is produced for Germany Italy can withstand a direct assault on its own for long enough to make it very expensive for the US. If you take Norway out of the equation as well for the obvious weakness it produces in the Pacific to do both, that also frees up German air units to defend Southern Italy as well.

    Still, I’d be interested to see it – I’m sure there are dynamics to it that I’m not seeing.

    Marsh



  • Shouldn’t the Allies simply clear out the Italian ships and camp a bunch of subs off their coast so they don’t make anything?


  • 2019 2017 '16

    ^ That’s not what the OP said.

    You also need a bunch of planes camped nearby if you don’t want them buying a DD each turn and killing a few subs a go. Or a steady supply of subs I guess.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @Cow:

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.

    Sicily is a great landing zone to support this invasion.

    The big question is - What about Japan?


  • 2019 2017 '16

    Why Sicily? Are you sending in a suiciding transport to take it then putting an airbase on it next turn to cover your fleet?


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    You will have all the Aircover you need.
    Problem will still be: Do you get enough units together for this Task?
    While you will end up with at last 6 Bmbrs, what will your Navy look like?
    1-2 CV’s, couple DD’s plus 6 TT’s???


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @simon33:

    Why Sicily? Are you sending in a suiciding transport to take it then putting an airbase on it next turn to cover your fleet?

    Bombers in Gibraltar (with no airbase) can hit rome and land in Sicily
    Bombers in London can hit rome and land in Sicily
    Bombers as far away as Iraq can hit rome and land in Sicily.

    I have done the suicide transport before, although you dont always have to, and sometimes if you have a whack of bombers, you can use this to “surprise” an opponent by suddenly having an available landing zone for your planes next turn that they didnt expect, where they simply cant get enough units built or moved into Rome in time to defend against.

    It’s not some “must” move, its just an option sometimes and one that people should be aware of.

    It’s also helpful because if your fleet moves there its likely to get swarmed by German airpower.  Now you dont have to do the “should I tip my carrier or kill a plane” decision.  You can just tip all your ships because your air can always land on sicily.  so its better fleet protection just by existing.

    Theoretically an AB could be built there, or even a NB to help the movement of ships, but thats alot of dollar for medium gain.


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