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USA to Italy


  • 2017

    I played against a guy who landed on Crete with the 3 Russian planes. Than the UK bought an air base. And on the next turn, the Russian planes cleared the Italian destroyer blocking in sz 92…US landed on s. Italy and n. Italy. Pretty cool. I never got Italy back the entire game.

    I won the game due to other circumstances, like UK getting bad dice on turn 1…clearing up Italy in the med/Africa. Plus I sent Japan to further threaten Middle East /Cairo. Let me get Moscow turn 6. But anyways, it’s something to explore; using Russian planes as a can opener. Of course this causes other problems like Russian maybe falling quick. So it’s got to be like all in to reduce Germany quick before Japan grows too much.


  • 2017

    @Cow:

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.

    Too many details!
    Step 1 buy naval (I guess all subs and transports)
    Step 2 buy bombers (I think I got that one)
    Step 3 more subs?
    Step 4 attack (like what the Italian blocker?)


  • 2017

    @weddingsinger:

    @oysteilo:

    No, you put a ship in 78 and one in 79. No iraq or Persia j3

    That only works if UK and Japan are at war.  If Japan didn’t declare, that means UK would have to for the blocking to work.  Once they do that, Japan can attack and it doesn’t bring the U.S. into the war early.

    How does Japan move past a UK destroyer in SZ 79 and simultaneously attack/occupy UK controlled Persia?


  • 2017

    @Marshmallow:

    Agreed, I think once the first round or two of can openers is produced for Germany Italy can withstand a direct assault on its own for long enough to make it very expensive for the US. If you take Norway out of the equation as well for the obvious weakness it produces in the Pacific to do both, that also frees up German air units to defend Southern Italy as well.

    Still, I’d be interested to see it – I’m sure there are dynamics to it that I’m not seeing.

    Marsh

    I lost Italy in a game I recently played. I won the game, largely due to other factors. But Italy was never recovered. The US came in with a bomber stack of like 12 bombers, 7 loaded transports and their Pacific Navy. I don’t think that’s really the best plan of course, but I was quite impressed with how much stuff he brought over so fast. He also can opened the Italian destroyer with Russian planes off of Crete / w UK air base.

    From and Axis perspective, I’d rather lose Italy than Norway.


  • 2017

    @GeneralHandGrenade:

    Kill Italy First.

    I’ve been saying that for a long time and it’s the goal of both my US and UK strategies. When you hit with both you can take N. Italy and S. Italy on the same turn which makes it impossible for Germany to take back. Rome is not Berlin or Tokyo but you might be amazed at how quickly the game turns into the Allies favour when you take the little brother out back behind the woodshed and take his lunch money for the rest of the game. It’s almost impossible to stop them from doing it if they make a concerted effort. Other than sending a ton of German troops down to Italy early and not to the Russian front, the only way to try and stop it is doing Sealion. It’s as close to a guaranteed win for my Allies as you can get if Germany does Sealion.

    Kill Italy First!!

    I don’t have much experiences being Axis and having lost Italy really ended up hurting me that bad.

    From the Axis perspective, sometimes I feel like Norway is more important than Italy.



  • @Ichabod:

    Why would the UK have to declare war in order to use a blocker? Makes no sense. The UK just needs to leave a blocker in sz 79. Japan HAS to be the one to declare war if it wants to capture UK controlled Persia.

    Taking Persia or Iraq in this scenario in J3 is not essential.
    If any of them is still neutral you can occupy them without declaring war.
    But that’s just bonus.

    The real goal ist Egypt J4/J5.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    So far i have this buys the first three rounds for the Italy Crush.

    1x CV
    2x Ftr
    4x TT
    6x Bmbrs
    2x Inf, 1xDD (1xCR 1xTT plus the starting Inf on US soil)

    That will leave the US with a solid strike Force on US 4.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Wouldn’t the Luftwaffe smash your fleet? Or is your plan to use the Rome airbase to defend the fleet?


  • 2018 2017 2016

    @simon33:

    Wouldn’t the Luftwaffe smash your fleet? Or is your plan to use the Rome airbase to defend the fleet?

    Two things i am assuming here:

    • turn 4 the Luftwaffe is split.  Some are in Russia, some are either in Germany or Italy.
    The German player may assume no bigger threat since the US build is lightly.

    • UK needs to make effort to ensure a proper Invasion and Protection.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    @Cow:

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.

    I am afraid it is not working 😐


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 Customizer

    @aequitas:

    @Cow:

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.

    I am afraid it is not working 😐

    Too much German air ?



  • @aequitas:

    @simon33:

    Wouldn’t the Luftwaffe smash your fleet? Or is your plan to use the Rome airbase to defend the fleet?

    Two things i am assuming here:

    � turn 4 the Luftwaffe is split.  Some are in Russia, some are either in Germany or Italy.
    The German player may assume no bigger threat since the US build is lightly.

    � UK needs to make effort to ensure a proper Invasion and Protection.

    @SS:

    @aequitas:

    @Cow:

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.

    I am afraid it is not working 😐

    Too much German air ?

    Cow’s steps aren’t supposed to be literally translated into turns. If you are trying out the idea you should use them as more of a guiding principle. First, you need transports to invade and naval to protect those transports. You need bombers to attack the factories in Italy that way once the Italians see you coming for them they cannot build defenses in time. You then need additional naval and bombers to either damage more factories, clear naval blockers, or protect yourself against enemy aircraft. Once these conditions have been met you can land in Rome relatively safe from Axis counterattack.

    I think it would be a worthwhile idea during your bomber operations to strike at the factory in Western Germany. To support this I think a small landing in Sicily is also a good idea as a location for your bombers to threaten Axis industries.

    You can also choke Italy’s income with submarines which the UK should be able to build 3 of over the course of the game without sacrificing too much. Furthermore, The US should be able to maintain a steady deployment of forces to Honolulu without compromising purchases in the Atlantic.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    @SS:

    @aequitas:

    @Cow:

    Step 1 buy naval
    Step 2 buy bombers
    Step 3 move naval and bombers in med sea/algeria
    step 4 attack

    Do it.

    I am afraid it is not working 😐

    Too much German air ?

    Italy basically has three turns to send can openers towards Russia.
    Then Italy starts build home defense (only Inf and fortify or Naval assets if Taranto did not happen).
    Italy allways sees it coming,  simply by looking at Gibraltar.
    Gibraltar is the door and the passage is the door bird/spy glas.

    Actions can be made by Italy to prevent a Sack.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    The axis can defend Italy to prevent it’s death. Germany may need to help, but it’s worth doing. Once the US fleet moves into the med, W Germany doesn’t need to be defended any more.

    No evidence has been presented otherwise.



  • I don’t know why people are discounting this bovine theory.  He tends to have great strats that are battle tested against top opponents.  You can argue that a different plan might be more effective, but you can’t argue that this USA to Italy is stupid.

    Italy can be stacked to prevent capture, but at a significant cost.  If that cost means that the Axis can’t push all the way to Egypt, that means that the Allies have won the European side of the game.  A big Allied fleet in the western Med with support from bombers can give a huge amount of mobility.  Units can get to almost anywhere except Scandinavia… making it expensive for the Axis to have sufficient units to respond to attacks.  If the Allies can get in a situation where attacks and counterattacks followed by another wave of attacks have a net zero TUV change for both sides, that usually is an Allied victory in the long run.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Interesting, but that isn’t really the bovine plan. I would say that unless the allies also hold Moscow, such a plan isn’t really a victory. Once the axis have all of USSR and are holding the allies out of Caucasus, they are heading towards economic victory but of course this depends on how well Japan is doing.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    @Arthur:

    I don’t know why people are discounting this bovine theory.  He tends to have great strats that are battle tested against top opponents.  You can argue that a different plan might be more effective, but you can’t argue that this USA to Italy is stupid.Â

    Italy can be stacked to prevent capture, but at a significant cost.  If that cost means that the Axis can’t push all the way to Egypt, that means that the Allies have won the European side of the game.  A big Allied fleet in the western Med with support from bombers can give a huge amount of mobility.  Units can get to almost anywhere except Scandinavia… making it expensive for the Axis to have sufficient units to respond to attacks.  If the Allies can get in a situation where attacks and counterattacks followed by another wave of attacks have a net zero TUV change for both sides, that usually is an Allied victory in the long run.Â

    Nobody said it is a stupid idea. I Play tested it in four different League games, but came to the conclusion that a) Italy sees it coming and can therefore take certain steps to Prevent this and b) US pacific suffers from this.

    It could be me not Performing correctly this Strat or it could be more of a longterm Strategy, wich i thought it isn’t.

    For my self, I stud under the Impression that this Strategy could provide a quick Punch into the European Theatre, but it wasn’t the case in my games.

    But as simon33 allready explained, Italy with the aid of Germany can fortify Rome in time to Prevent this “USA to Italy” sack in 4-5 turns.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    What I see missing from these plans so far is British subs and/or a British Atlantic fleet. You either need some kind of northern threat to keep Germany honest in w. Germany, Norway, etc, or if you are going for a 100% kif blitz then you need Egypt factory uk1, Egypt subs uk2, start convoying uk3. If Italy spends 3 turns building can openers then you need to make sure Italy has less than 10 bucks to spend for the rest of the game after buying those can openers.

    Italy often defends northern Italy very lightly. 1-2 transports there to stop Germany from quickly recapturing Rome is handy I’d you have that option, but it’s not so amazing that it’s worth abandoning Norway, Normandy, Denmark, w. Germany, Netherlands all without a fight.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    In recent games I’ve been putting ten or more inf on both north and south Italy. This makes killing Italy or even annoying it with a suicidal landing a total waste of effort for the allies. Of course, starving out its ipcs is still possible.

    So I agree with argothair. Don’t kill Italy, starve it.



  • Starving Italy is always a part of every game strategy.  A bunch of Allied subs should be raiding all of the zones touching the Med as soon as the initiative can be sustained.  Bombers can further deplete the production capabilities.

    I also would argue that in most games Germany can capture Moscow.  The question is not if Russia will fall, but how many German units are left after the assault.  If only a few tanks remain, that will be insufficient to push far towards Egypt.  Of course everything depends on how well Japan is doing.  A strong crush of Moscow with Japan capturing India while holding China and the Money Islands is almost a guaranteed Axis win.

    I would argue that Italy turtling down and building 20 infantry to defend Rome is almost as good for the Allies as capturing Rome.  Those units have limited mobility and no offensive punch.  The Allied bombers and fleet can pivot instantly to attack Normandy or Greece, or can push into the Middle East or Scandinavia with an extra turn of planning.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    Exactly. Everyone knows you have to starve Italy, but not everyone seems to realize that you need to do it quickly. If you starve Italy quickly, then Italy has to choose between building a significant can opening force…they can’t afford to do both.

    If Italy builds a significant can opening force, you can and should take Rome. You also take Northern Italy if they leave it weak, but that’s optional and not worth diverting an entire extra fleet. If you want a European factory, you can get it by taking Normandy and/or Southern France; you don’t need to base your entire strategy around protecting a factory in Southern Italy. If Germany wants to repeatedly send mechs south to Rome, that’s fine – you can set up a shuck-shuck from USA - Gibraltar - Rome, build a naval base in Sicily, retake Italy’s capital each turn at a profit, and soon enough your transports will start to complete successful round trips, saving you even more cash that can be spent in the Pacific. Transports go to Gibraltar turn 3, Rome turn 4, Gibraltar turn 5, and back to USA on turn 6, so starting turn 6 you don’t need any more Atlantic transports and you can go 80% Kill Japan with America. Meanwhile all those German mechs that died in Rome are no threat to Egypt. Moscow will fall hard, but you’ll have significant pressure on the western front and Egypt only has to fight on one front, so the Allies can still win.

    If instead Italy builds mostly infantry to sit and defend Rome, then you can and should move the surface fleet and airforce to take Normandy and Norway while leaving your subs behind to convoy Italy.  Italy won’t have the offensive punch to kick you out of France or help threaten Egypt in the endgame. Italy might eventually build a destroyer and whittle down your submarines, but that’s OK. If Italy comes back to life earning 12 IPCs on turn 8 after having bought almost all infantry and destroyers for the whole game, they’re still not going to pose a serious threat to Egypt before the game ends – especially because with no can-openers to weaken Russia, not too many German tanks are likely to be punching through the Middle East. You might even hold a British Persian factory the whole game if you use a Middle Earth type strategy. If Germany also builds mostly infantry to defend the western front, then Europe is safe and you go 100% for Japan to try to win on that side. If Germany builds an extra couple of rounds of mechs and tanks to try to push through to Egypt or India, well, you’re already sitting in Norway and Normandy, so you keep pushing there, take Denmark and Western Germany, and try to get Berlin. I think the Allies have pretty good odds either way.

    That’s why I typically use a third strategy as Italy: I build fighters, subs, and destroyers to try to sink whatever boats the Allies put in the Med, I let Italy take Southern France, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Greece for the extra cash, and I will use German planes to help clear the Med if I can do that at a profit. I can’t force the Allies to give up control of the Med – they can take it if they want it – but I can often force them to pay such a high price for it that it interferes with their ability to run a campaign anywhere else. If Japan is uncontained, Germany holds Normandy and Norway while still making steady progress toward Moscow, and Italy is alive on turn 5 despite finally losing control of the Med, then I think the Axis have a good chance to win. Even if the loss of German planes means you will lose so many tanks taking Moscow that you will never take Egypt, you can still win an economic victory – if you’ve got Norway, Normandy, Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, China, southeast Asia, and the money islands, that should be plenty to win the endgame even if India is still hanging on by a thread and Rome is reduced to building infantry and waiting for the end. Germany is rich enough to hold off the combined US/UK in northern Italy indefinitely while still picking up a few territories here and there (Urals, Kazakh, etc.), and Japan is also rich enough to hold off all remaining Allies while continuing to slowly expand (Western Australia, South Africa, Siberia, etc.)

    As a side note, I’m not a big fan of taking Greece unless you’re playing Balanced Mod; it’s just not worth enough money without an extra NO, and it’s not strategically vital if Germany is doing Barbarossa while Italy is camping at home. Maybe ABH can explain why he likes to shift to Greece when Rome is well-defended – it sounds interesting!


  • 2019 2017 2016

    A big stack of Italian infantry isn’t completely useless though. Good for defending France, W Germany and Berlin. Much better than using German IPCs for such things. You need some planes of course.

    To be honest, unless the opportunity to take Egypt as Italy presents itself, I don’t find that Italy achieves much beyond can openers. Obviously you should still do that.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @Arthur:

    I don’t know why people are discounting this bovine theory.  He tends to have great strats that are battle tested against top opponents.  You can argue that a different plan might be more effective, but you can’t argue that this USA to Italy is stupid.

    It hasn’t helped that he hasn’t supplied any more info but it just seems that it relies on sub par defense of Rome. Rome is important to the Axis, more than Normandy or Norway so you can’t allow it to fall to do something else. Defending Rome also is unlikely to stop or even slow a Moscow take down.



  • Taking and retaking S. Italy isn’t a money maker if Germany is liberating it.  The U.S.’ turn is before Italy’s, so no income will get collected for capturing it other than the 3 ipcs the territory is worth.

    What about taking Norway or Greece with Russian help instead?  If Germany heads north, UK lands in Greece, Russia sends some in that direction, too?


  • 2019 2017 2016

    Yeah well a bunch of Italian ground troops on N Italy can retake S Italy right away. Of course losing Rome even if it’s retaken straight away is still a significant setback for the Axis.


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