Axis and Allies and Zombies at Origins

Well,

Not even two days later and you got a jump on it Squirecam!

I am reading through the questions…interesting.  Are the Zombies optional?  Why would you buy it if they were?  Just play '42 and call it a day…

I got 3 games in myself and had the chance to talk to the designer at length as well as others that played the game.

I am not sure how detailed Squirecam got, but it is simple.  The game is a normal AA game, somewhere between '41 and '42…at the start of each countries turn they turn over a Zombie card that directs them to do 2 things, one good and one in favor of the Zombies…then the Zombies attack where ever on the board, the turn continues on normally except for purchase units and placing units are at the end of the turn instead of the beginning…

Victory conditions for the game are the same for the Axis and Allies but the zombies are an independent entity and can win if they gain 25 IPC of controlled countries.

That is it…

This is the closest I was able to get…

@smo63:

I am reading through the questions…interesting.  Are the Zombies optional?  Why would you buy it if they were?  Just play '42 and call it a day…

Because AAZ is nowhere near the size or complexity of 1942… not even close.

No, what AAZ resembles in map size and complexity is 1941… with one minor exception… the map IPC totals are much higher than 1941… probably the #1 complaint about 1941 is its complete lack of IPCs on the map.

So… why would people want AAZ without zombies? Easy… to get a playable map for 1941 and have a much better intro map for A&A that is very much like 1941’s map, just with more IPCs on it…

There’s no way this AAZ map would ever be confused for 1942’s map.

@Nowhere:

@smo63:

I am reading through the questions…interesting.  Are the Zombies optional?  Why would you buy it if they were?  Just play '42 and call it a day…

There’s no way this AAZ map would ever be confused for 1942’s map.

Ok, not sure if Squire mentioned this but the game comes with a way to add zombies to 1942 2nd Ed. if you like…?  I don’t believe there ever was an intention to confuse the AAZ map with '42…

@Nowhere:

So… why would people want AAZ without zombies? Easy… to get a playable map for 1941 and have a much better intro map for A&A that is very much like 1941’s map, just with more IPCs on it…

We’re 100% on the same page, Nowhere Man. What I quoted is exactly why I would want to Zombies to be optional (along with easier-to-obtain victory conditions). I have a need for a fast and relatively simple A&A title that isn’t as bare-bones as 41. Most of my attempts to expand my local A&A circle crash and burn because people get put off by either size/complexity of the map (even the small games like Revised and 42SE are too much for some of them, which is as bizarre for you as it is for me, trust me) and the length of the average game (I only get to see some of my friends 2-3 times a year and those friends aren’t too keen on dedicating an entire day to A&A). My only way out has been to house-rule in simpler win conditions (custom VCs with a hard turn time limit, similar to how tournaments are run), but I would have appreciated an official version of the game that did this for me.

@smo63:

Ok, not sure if Squire mentioned this but the game comes with a way to add zombies to 1942 2nd Ed. if you like…?  I don’t believe there ever was an intention to confuse the AAZ map with '42…

Well aware there are optional rules introducing zombies into 1942… honestly,  the way the rules are written you could probably introduce zombies into any version of A&A from 1941 to Global and everything inbetween…  the only hiccup I see in adding zombies to any version are the cards saying “place zombies in zone-x”… where zone-x might be labeled differently in a different version but that would be very easy to house-rule fix.

My main point was that there are plenty of people interested in a slightly modified map for 1941 intro player map, and this AAZ map sure looks like a valid candidate to replace 1941’s map for a lot of people.

@squirecam:

I’m not sure how balanced the game is. Taking out the zombies might make things worse.

You’d have to try pretty hard to make a game less balanced than 41.
Or 42SE OOB, for that matter.

Even G40 OOB is better than these two, and everyone on this forum should know the nightmare it took to get the game where it is today (which, after all this time, is STILL heavily Axis-favored).

Guys,

I see your point about a game that needs to be introduced between 41 and 42…I will pass the word along.

And IMO, there is no game as balanced as AA50…!

And after playing 2 more games than Squirecam, I am not so sure the Axis are favored.  Here again, it all comes down to the level of players you are playing against.  Once we get enough games in, we will know more about the game balance…

As for the board, playing AA on the Zombie board might be the answer you guys are looking for, for a version between 41 and 42, and playing without the Zombies?  But need to look at that as well… :?

Peace,
Greg

@squirecam:

I’m not sure how balanced the game is. Taking out the zombies might make things worse.

Not sure if you noticed, but if you take out the zombies, it becomes regular 5-player Axis and Allies.  Aside from the IPC totals, the map is nearly identical to 1941’s map. Minus zombies, you’re probably looking at something very close to 1941’s play balance. As with anything, home modding is super-simple to do… You seem as upset that people might take out the zombies as others have been about putting in zombies. Let folks play with it as they see fit!  :-D

@smo63:

the turn continues on normally except for purchase units and placing units are at the end of the turn instead of the beginning…

You purchase units at the end of the Turn ? What is the reason for that ?

What I loved the most with A&A was you had to calculate and figure out what units you needed before next turn. To purchase the right units at the start of the turn is what separated the skilled player from the beginner. Now it gets too simple, you do combat and move units around, then have a look at the map and see what you need, and then you do purchases. Its getting too simple, man

@Narvik:

@smo63:

the turn continues on normally except for purchase units and placing units are at the end of the turn instead of the beginning…

You purchase units at the end of the Turn ? What is the reason for that ?

What I loved the most with A&A was you had to calculate and figure out what units you needed before next turn. To purchase the right units at the start of the turn is what separated the skilled player from the beginner. Now it gets too simple, you do combat and move units around, then have a look at the map and see what you need, and then you do purchases. Its getting too simple, man

When a major complaint of the game is that it’s too complicated, I expect Hasbro/WotC/AH to attempt to simplify it… And if you don’t like that rule, don’t play by that rule. The thing I love about board games is how easy it is to change how you play. Try modding a video game sometime to see the difference.

-Midnight_Reaper

@Nowhere:

@squirecam:

I’m not sure how balanced the game is. Taking out the zombies might make things worse.

You seem as upset that people might take out the zombies as others have been about putting in zombies. Let folks play with it as they see fit!  :-D

I am not upset about anything regarding the game.  Players can do what they want.  I am just offering my thoughts on my play of the game and what I experienced at ORIGINS.

@Narvik:

@smo63:

the turn continues on normally except for purchase units and placing units are at the end of the turn instead of the beginning…

You purchase units at the end of the Turn ? What is the reason for that ?

You need to ask the game designer that one…

HA HA HA  game aint out yet and already coming up with House Rules!
SWEET !

@smo63:

Guys,
 
I see your point about a game that needs to be introduced between 41 and 42…I will pass the word along.

If you have any sway with WOTC, please advise them to not do an overly gimmicky game again for a while. At least not in the next A&A release (assuming we get a next release…). This whole Zombie thing, while I (and most others) personally don’t mind it, has been a huge “base-breaker” in our community, with several members of the forum threatening to boycott the game over it.

Their main gripe can basically summed up as “The game offends me because my relative was in WW2.” I imagine this can be smoothed over a bit by having someone involved with AH or WOTC either:
A: Do an interview with someone and explicitly state that they support veterans, and apologize for any perceived disrespect that may have resulted from the inclusion of Zombies in the game.

B: Have a statement in the instruction manual/box for the game that states something similar. For comparsion’s sake, refer to the passages Larry included in the manuals for just about every game he was involved with.

@smo63:

And IMO, there is no game as balanced as AA50…!

I consider Revised to be more balanced than AA50. AA50 (41 scenario, Axis are too strong in the 42 scenario OOB) only becomes balanced if you turn NOs off, otherwise Axis win easily without a pretty sizeable bid, in both scenarios.

Gripes aside, AA50 is still my favorite version to actually play on. Small enough to be finished in 4-5 hours, but big/optimized enough to not fall into stale, super dead-zone-heavy strategies after turn 1 (except in Russia, but that happens in just about every A&A game).

@smo63:

And after playing 2 more games than Squirecam, I am not so sure the Axis are favored.  Here again, it all comes down to the level of players you are playing against.  Once we get enough games in, we will know more about the game balance…

I think it will take more time for a meta to develop. IIRC people thought Allies were overpowered in G40 for a while before people figured out the Italian Can Opener -> unstoppable German drive to Moscow strategy.

@smo63:

As for the board, playing AA on the Zombie board might be the answer you guys are looking for, for a version between 41 and 42, and playing without the Zombies?  But need to look at that as well… :?

What you said is what I personally am hoping for, at least for the more casual group of friends I’m trying to play with.

@Narvik:

What I loved the most with A&A was you had to calculate and figure out what units you needed before next turn. To purchase the right units at the start of the turn is what separated the skilled player from the beginner. Now it gets too simple, you do combat and move units around, then have a look at the map and see what you need, and then you do purchases. Its getting too simple, man

If they had to change it, I would have had purchasing and placing both came at the beginning of your turn, to encourage holding territories Vs. being rewarded for making over-extensive land-grabs. The new system further encourages poor plays like sending a Tank to blitz through two enemy territories and leaving it to die, confident that the IPCs you gained from the briefly occupied territories will translate into a net IPC profit for you.

Way off-topic, but what you said, along with the apparent rule-change for turn order, reminded me of a house-rule system I tried creating one time.

Basically, instead of each country performing its turn in a vacuum, each country took a turn playing out a phase. So you had something like this:

1. USSR buys units.
2. German buys units, after seeing what USSR bought.
3. UK buys units, after seeing what Germany bought.
4. etc.
5. USSR Combat Move + Resolve Combat.
6. Germany Combat Move + Resolve Combat, after taking a beating from USSR.
7. UK Combat move, after seeing what Germany did.
8. etc.
9. Same deal for NCM and placing units. I made up these rules for Revised a long time ago, so I never accounted for things like the new Strategic Bombing Rules, convoying, etc.

My idea was to keep new players engaged by letting them play more frequently, and it sort of worked, since I now play normal A&A with them whenever we get the chance.

/endrant.

@squirecam:

I dont get this sentiment. By FAR the most popular COD modes have always been the nazi zombie modes. This isnt a new thing. Zombies have been added to WW2 since….forever…

I don’t understand the rage either, but if you spend 5 minutes going through this sub-board you’ll see endless waves of posts by thin-skinned folks complaining about the zombies, so I figured I’d throw them a bone.

@squirecam:

Basic 1942 AA50 is balanced. If NO’s are a problem…then its the NO rules that are the issue, not the base AA50 game.

In either revised or AA50 42 (sans NO’s), the bid is still 1 unit, which is pretty damn good.

IIRC NOs are a built in part of AA50, and turning them off is a house-rule. I’ve argued that G40 would be more balanced if NOs were turned off there as well, but the community/metagame/balance mods have developed around NOs for like 6 years now, so there’s no sense trying to change things.

I disagree on you regarding AA50 42 scenario’s balance, but that’s pretty far off topic and we can both agree that AA50 42 is more balanced than the likes of 42SE and G40, so I’m willing to drop the issue.

@Narvik:

You purchase units at the end of the Turn ? What is the reason for that ?

Its getting too simple, man

Youre so right, man.