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An introduction and a question about Strat. bombing



  • Hey there! My name’s Josh, I’m a MA student of Military History at KSU, and I’ve just started playing A&A, so I thought I’d introduce myself to the community, and ask a question I’ve been wondering about. When strategic bombing, can your bombers stay for as many rounds of combat as wanted until the opponent loses the max amount of IPC possible as dictated by the target territory’s value, assuming of course the target continues firing AA every round, or is there only one round of combat? Thanks for the input:)



  • No.  Any bomber(s) not shot down by AA fire get ONE roll, the combined total of all bombers doing a maximum damage of the IPC value of the territory holding hte IC, and then the Bombers fly away to land.

    During regular Combat though (attacking land, air and/or sea units), the bomber can stay as long as combat lasts (or until destroyed)



  • Cheers! Makes alot more sense now, thanks:)



  • And does strat. bombing STACK with IPC damage done by rockets? Or does is the IPC limit shared by both?



  • Well, logic would dictate me to think that the target territory can lose only up to its maximum worth in IPCS until the target’s next turn, but i’m not sure.



  • VAGUE ROOLZ AHH!  :mrgreen:



  • Yes they do stack.  Total strategic damage by one nation in one turn is the value of the territory attacked.

    HOWEVER… US and UK can both SBR and/or Rocket attack Germany for 20 IPC’s of damage per game turn (10 each maximum for UK and USA).



  • hmm, i’m not sure, but if you’re working with techs…

    isn’t it the case that UK can take 10 IPC’s with rocket strikes AND 10 IPC’s with strategic bombing?
    USA can do the same: 10 + 10.
    so, this makes a total of 40 IPC’s?

    i repeat: i’m not sure, 'cause we only played with techs the first time we played.
    we dropped it because it’s to much luck based for us…



  • At the official website of a&a, you can find an errata in the rulebook:
    Pg. 25, Weapons Development – Rockets: Delete the sentence “Choose an industrial complex within 3 spaces and roll one die per rocket launcher (the maximum each rocket can inflict is the territory’s income value).” Replace it with “In each territory, one antiaircraft gun may attack an industrial complex within 3 spaces, though each industrial complex may be attacked by only one rocket launcher in a turn. The maximum loss each rocket can inflict is the target territory’s income value.”

    Which means: if you play with techs: you can have 2 AA’s in UK and make a rocket strike at the 2 IC’s of G! for a maximum roll of 6 for both the IC’s…

    but no, this is NOT true! somewhere on the same page of the FAQ’s you can find these sentences:
    _I don’t understand the limitations on rocket attacks. Please clarify.

    An AA gun can fire one rocket attack per turn.
    Only one AA gun can fire rockets out of a territory, no matter how many AA guns are in that territory.
    An industrial complex can be hit only once per player turn, no matter how many enemy AA guns are within range. Under the right circumstances, however, an IC in Germany could be hit by a rocket once in the Soviet player’s turn and again in the British player’s turn.
    The maximum range of a rocket attack is three spaces._

    so, if UK has a AA in UK and one in Norway for example… THEN they could make G lose 12 IPC’s at best!
    (2 AA, each in a different territory can attack 2 different IC)
    and that’s with rocket strikes only!

    then you still have the SB, too…
    again a FAQ at the official website:
    IPC loss from strategic bombing is limited to the territory’s income value. Is that per bomber or per turn?
    **_Per bomber.[/i[/b]]

    Which means: if you SB with 12 bombers, and 10 get through the AA, then you can throw 10 dice. no need to make a calc here, right?

    remark: I’m not suggesting that I’m pro SB, I’m only clarifying the rules._**



  • hey, I’m from Belgium (Europe) and I re-read my rulebook yesterday…
    I can confirm the things i replied earlier:

    The rules in my rulebook state (maybe this is a very recent version of the book, 'cause i bought a&ar December 2006):
    * Rocket strike: maximum 1 AA per territory can fire at an IC and the AA can do maximum damage equal to the IPC value of the territory. you can hit every IC only once.
    So, for example, with G having two IC’s with both IPC-value of 6 or more… this is a total maximum of 12 IPC’s you can drain as UK (AA in UK and AA in Norway).

    * Strategic Bombing: Every bomber who gets past the AA (first shot) can throw a die. this die is limited to the IPC value of the territory.
    So, for example: if you go in with 12 bombers, and 10 of those survive: the attacker can throw 10 dice - each of which will be separately limited to the IPC value of the territory… in the worst case for G, this means 10x6 = 60 IPC lost in one allied countries turn…

    I repeat: I’m only explaining what the rulebook mentions! I’m not suggesting you have to obey these rules at home or in tournaments or so… 😉

    Actually, I think that playing with the correct rules can be devastating for G, so I like it more when the totalling amount of IPC loss of a SB is limited to the IPC value of the territory (so this should be a house rule, then :-P)…



  • Come on, now. You can’t lose more than the value of the territory PER TURN… Think about it, if you destroy a factory, it is destroyed, right? No matter how much bombers you sent to destroy it… It needs time to rebuild and then you can bomb it again.



  • @DasReich:

    Come on, now. You can’t lose more than the value of the territory PER TURN… Think about it, if you destroy a factory, it is destroyed, right? No matter how much bombers you sent to destroy it… It needs time to rebuild and then you can bomb it again.

    That is why you use Larry Harris Tournament Rules instead of those in the box.  Even with LHTR, you can still THEORECTICALLY bomb/rocket Germany to 0 IPCs for a build.  But you are limitted to 16 IPC’s per nation (10 Germany, 6 southern) per turn.

    So, the historic CBO (Combined Bomber Offensive) is STILL a viable strat (US and UK bombiung raids to neutralize German production).  But it takes MAXIMUM effort in order to do so (which also is histoircally accurate).

    And of course, the other question is… HOW do you destroy Polish revenue by bombing Rome?  Should not be possible.  Only way is to wait for Polish Revenue to be sent to Rome to fix the factories from the UK bombing raid, THEN they get hit by the Americans while they are re-building…



  • SBR can be quite efficient…

    In the game that im playing, USA and UK are bombing ME for over 15 IPC per turn. But on USA’s last raid, I got two 1’s in one roll!!! He lost both his bombers!!! LOL



  • @DasReich:

    Come on, now. You can’t lose more than the value of the territory PER TURN… Think about it, if you destroy a factory, it is destroyed, right? No matter how much bombers you sent to destroy it… It needs time to rebuild and then you can bomb it again.

    Well, actually… if you think about it…
    you don’t destroy the factory… you destroy IPC’s…
    meaning: you destroy Industrial Production Certificates or that many working hours per IPC
    right?
    so, if you destroy IPC’s this means maybe the materials to make the units are destroyed rather than the factory itself…
    they have to ‘go and find’ new materials to work with, and so on…



  • Well, as long as we’re talking about what historically slowed down production, you’ll find that although initially in most bombing campaigns factories were targetted, this was mostly abandoned in favor of bombing suburbs surrounded factories, the logic being that this demoralizing will lead to less worked output.



  • And if we’re talking history, just about every source - the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, Speer, and every recent book I’ve ever read - says it just didn’t work. German production lifted dramatically through the war years. despite the US and UK spending something like 20-35% of their entire national effort on throwing planes and aircrew away.



  • I’m still unclear on what the official rules regarding bombing and rockets are. From what I gather each die from a bomber is limited to the IPC value of the territory. So, with bombers the potential IPC damage is only limited by the number of bombers. However, rockets can only strike each industrial complex once, no matter from where they are firing. Is this correct?



  • @Alcibiades:

    I’m still unclear on what the official rules regarding bombing and rockets are. From what I gather each die from a bomber is limited to the IPC value of the territory. So, with bombers the potential IPC damage is only limited by the number of bombers. However, rockets can only strike each industrial complex once, no matter from where they are firing. Is this correct?Â

    This is correct, indeed!
    but: remember this:
    maximum 1 AA per territory can fire at an IC
    so, if you have 2 AA’s in UK, you can’t bomb 2 different IC’s…



  • Hmm I started to think if it really pays of to do the strategic bombing.

    When I think it over quickly, you get an average of 3,5 damage per turn per bomber, and the AA hits every 6th time.
    lets say that the AA hits after 3-4 turns.
    1st turn - 3,5 IPC lost
    2nd turn - 7 IPC lost
    3rd turn 10,5 IPC lost
    4th turn 14 IPC lost
    5th turn 17,5 IPC lost
    6th turn 21 IPC lost

    Based on this I wouldn’t think that it really pays of that much to do the bombing, in the long run that is, so don’t plan your war on lowering your opponent down with bombards.
    But with this said, bombing is so based on luck and that whats makes is so fun, I use it a lot when I play. As a rule of thumb I bomb an IC everytime my bombers isn’t needed anywhere else, just because Its there and I love to drop bombs, Also when your nearing the capital of your opponent it can be an efficient strategy to slow down his infantry build-up

    Regards,
    Daniel Malus



  • Statiscally, if you have 6 bombers at once make a SB, then 5 of them survive.
    so: you lose 15 IPC’s
    and your opponent loses 5x3,5 is 17,5 IPC’s (that is if his IC has enough IPC’s on the territory)
    meaning an average total gain of 0,417 IPC’s per bomber per TURN…

    that’s true so far!

    when you are superior in such a way that you can afford losing bombers then it is a stategy (but in my opinion not a very good one) 'cause for USA it is a strategy like any other…
    USA 1 and USA 2 together is good for a built of 5 bombers, together with the one you have to begin with is 6 bombers to attack in USA 3! that’s an average of 17,5 IPC’s to drain from G in round 4…
    it’s not the best way to get USA in the action, I think, but it’s a way to go…

    If you can use them in combat in any way, they are far more better!
    your bomber has a 4/6 change to inflict an extra casualty…
    if my assumption is correct that your attack has enough cannon fodder, so your bomber isn’t in the line of fire, then you lose ZERO IPC’s and your opponent (with lots of infantry, let’s suppose) loses 4/6 x 3 IPC’s = an average of 2 IPC’s per COMBAT ROUND…
    so, if your combat lasts 2 or 3 rounds, your bomber has multiplied his use!

    I believe SB is a good thing to do with your bombers when you can ABSOLUTELY do nothing else with them!!!
    (or in my example: if they would be used as cannon fodder)



  • Thanks for supplying with your math Axel Allie, I agree with you 100% in terms of what and and when to use the bomber.
    I love to have the averages backing up on every move I consider, and as far as this game and nearly every other strategy game i know goes, its all based on cost and efficiency.

    Great with the calc on the use of bombers in combat to back up the statement, this also makes for more strafe attacks instead of bombardment.

    Regards,
    -Daniel Malus



  • USA 1 and USA 2 together is good for a built of 5 bombers, together with the one you have to begin with is 6 bombers to attack in USA 3! that’s an average of 17,5 IPC’s to drain from G in round 4…
    it’s not the best way to get USA in the action, I think, but it’s a way to go…

    Well on USA 3 you could only attack with the 2 bombers you built on USA 1, because they are in London. Your USA 2 bombers can’t even attack Western Europe from Eastern US.

    If you can use them in combat in any way, they are far more better!

    Well yes, but since you can build fighters, you’d rather build fighters because they are even better. 3 fighters will inflict slightly more damage than 2 bombers per combat round (equal costs), offer more fodder, and infinitely better defense.



  • @trihero:

    USA 1 and USA 2 together is good for a built of 5 bombers, together with the one you have to begin with is 6 bombers to attack in USA 3! that’s an average of 17,5 IPC’s to drain from G in round 4…
    it’s not the best way to get USA in the action, I think, but it’s a way to go…

    Well on USA 3 you could only attack with the 2 bombers you built on USA 1, because they are in London. Your USA 2 bombers can’t even attack Western Europe from Eastern US.

    My sentence wasn’t formulated as good as it should have been…
    @Axel:

    … is 6 bombers to attack in USA 3! that’s an average of 17,5 IPC’s to drain from G in round 4…

    better was:
    … is 6 bombers to attack after USA 3! that’s an average of 17,5 IPC’s to drain from G in round 4…
    (notice that I mention the loss of IPC’s for G in USA 4)

    @trihero:

    If you can use them in combat in any way, they are far more better!

    Well yes, but since you can build fighters, you’d rather build fighters because they are even better. 3 fighters will inflict slightly more damage than 2 bombers per combat round (equal costs), offer more fodder, and infinitely better defense.

    fighters are indeed better!
    I didn’t state that building bombers was the best thing to do!

    I did the suggested calc to clearify the math…

    the only way you should build bombers is when you need a longer range than figs and certainly when you work with weapon developments (double SB is worth it)
    we never play with weapon developments 'cause it increases the luck factor a lot and the double SB is much to effective and harsh…



  • At no point does bombing become any less useful than it originally was in the real world (well, untill the entire territory is destroyed).  Tournament rules do make for a better game, but they destroy my machine-like play, so I don’t like them.  You people out there should get them.  Anybody have a link?  Let me look for one….  Found one: http://daak.de/regeln/eng/lhtr.pdf


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