Forget History



  • I don’t care what really happened, in Axis and Allies Japan should never start anything with the US.  (unless they are all thats left)

    Anyone Disagree?



  • I don’t understand the people who use history for strategy. I mean, Japan lost. So that just about screws any history based plan for them.


  • Moderator

    Um no… I don’t disagree… that’s all I got to say 😐

    Trigger pointed it out perfectly… If you build strats off of failed history then you may repeat what happened with them, assuming production and dice go in History’s favor

    GG


  • 2007 AAR League

    I have been considering the Jap attack on Pearl on J1 for awhile…

    There is a general consensus that KGF is the superior strat for Allies, right?

    Then, if the Axis can devise a strat that lures the Allies away from the No1 target (Germany) it should try to employ that strat.

    My thinking is:

    • Why not indeed leave the Peal fleet alone on J1. The GOAL of this is to lure the US to builid in the Pac and wage a fleet war with Japan , instead of go KGF
    • Since Japan already has loads of shiny fleet pieces, it now get to use those pieces to slow down the US - pieces that would have been much less useful , after a killing of the Pearl fleet (given that US would then employ a KGF)

    OK, the US would get a stronger presence in Pac, but it would give Germany more freedom in Africa , and slightly more time against Russia on the Eastern front, which should more than offset any losses in Pac.

    Whaddya think?  8-)



  • If you do not do Pearl (and I have played with and without a Pearl J1), then in a KGF, you leave the PACFLT to head to face Germany.  And it is not as slow as folks might think.  The BB and TRN off Western USA are off Western Europe for an amphib with BB shot for USA3.  The AC and Sub can be at the mouth of the Med in USA3 also… and off Southern or Norway in USA4.

    Since the US normally does not ahve their full tranny capacity up until USA3, this means that the US would not have to worry about fleet defense from the German AF… they just build trannies and land units for the first 3 rounds, sail the PACFLT to the European coast, and then start dropping 8-10 divisions a round, supported by a BB shot and with 2 FIGs providing air cover, each and every round.

    It also makes it pointless for Germany to even attempt to delay or destroy the UK fleet in G2 or G3, since the US will be sailing in an undefeatable (for Germany) fleet the following round.

    So, without Pearl being done in a KGF game, Germany has about 4 rounds to crush Russia before they start facing in the mid teens of divisions being amphibed into Europe each and every round… which is more units than Germany can build in a round.

    And Russia can’t be killed (without phenomonal dice or bad Allied play) in just 4 rounds.

    So… kill the AC, kill the FIG, kill the sub.  THEN retreat your fleet back to Asia and/or Africa for Axis KRF strat.

    Unless you want to take the gamble of sending a TRN along with your Pearl fleet and FOLLOW the remaining US ships (the BB and TRN) through the Panama canal to try for one last desperate 1-2 strike against the Allied navies using German AF followed up by Japan naval units in Turn 4 or 5… (I have floated that strat concept elsewhere, but have NEVER tried it, and never heard of anyone having success with it… it is purely theoretical, and pretty darn crazy.)


  • 2007 AAR League

    Switch,

    You sure got a point there…!

    So by ignoring Pearl, then Japan would make the KGF strat even more deadly for the Axis. And japan would have even LESS use of its cool fleet…

    In that case, to answer the original post in the thread, I gotta say that YES Japan should leave US all alone, EXCEPT for the Pearl attack on J1. After that it is all KRF!



  • @Trigger:

    I don’t understand the people who use history for strategy. I mean, Japan lost. So that just about screws any history based plan for them.

    The game is not entirely accurate on history for history’s sake…  From 1942-1944, the US aggregate production in military units nearly equalled that of Germany, Italy, and Japan combined(Our grandfather’s kicked a** on the battlefields and oceans, our grandmother’s kicked a** in the factories).  The Allies from 1942-1944 outspent the Axis better than 2-1.  How long do you think the Axis would last if the US were collecting 65IPCs per round, GB 35-40, and the Russians collecting 35 out of the gate?  The result would be the same as history.

    Wilk



  • I agree with the idea of forgetting history, but from a slightly different perspective-

    Sometimes on this site you get arguments like this- “well, the Russians produced 70,000 T-34s by 1945, while the Germans only produced 1,300 Tiger Tanks, therefore blah blah blah…”.

    The cool thing about Axis and Allies is that we CAN forget history. I might not choose to spend my IPCs on certain units, regardless of what happened historically. I might not choose to island hop with the U.S. Navy, regardless of history. It’s the entire charm of the game, that you get to run it the way you want to, without actual bloodshed.

    The way I see it you’ve been set up, it’s the deep winter of 1941, now you get to choose strategy, how to allocate resources etc. What Churchill, Hitler and company chose to do loses all significance.



  • Switch- I agree about how critical it is to kill the Pearl fleet- it’s an optimal opening move- but in selling your point you neglected what could be gained-

    If Russia has 6 Inf in Buryatia, it and China can both be taken. 18 IPCs worth of Russian pieces dead, and killed quickly, opens a gaping hole in the Russian north. Also, if you built 3 transports, you can safely place them in SZ60, means more versatilityon J2 than if you had placed them inside Japan’s coast. Finally, bad dice is taken out of the equation (Pearl can go bad from time to time), conserving your fleet to hammer on Russia and the Indian Ocean coastline.

    Again- I agree Pearl should be hammered, but if the Russian player did move up to Buryat, it is an option worth considering.



  • If the Japs ignore PH and the US sends its fleet to the Atlantic,I would send the IJN to the Med via the Indian Ocean,taking India,the Middle East and E.Africa in the process. I would build some subs and destroyers to patrol the Pacific,protecting the islands from any attempts by the US to take them with small invasion forces…Oddly,there would ultimately be a sea/air-sea battle somewhere in the Med or the Atl involving the IJN!



  • I discussed this on page 4 under “Japan strategy concepts.”

    The carrier/sub from Pearl won’t really see action in the Atlantic theater since by the time it arrives there, the Allies should have control of the waters already. So all you’re giving the US is a fighter more than normal. You could use the aircraft against China instead of Pearl in order to secure China in one round and minimize inf casualties.

    Skipping Pearl is suicide under certain tournament rulings where there’s more emphasis on the Japanese victory cities, but I don’t think it’s mandatory as long as you build some transports on the first round. If you go with double complexes like Octo did on J1 AND skip Pearl, then the US has a navy that already rivals the Japanese one on Round 1, and can go play with Japan’s islands, which isn’t pretty once you have a 50 IPC nation vs a 30 IPC nation. You don’t want to give the US a real chance at screwing up your push against Russia.



  • I disagree.  The US fleet in the Pacfic is nothing compared to the Japaneese fleet.  Esp if Japan is on Defense.  I say Ignore the US and make them come to you.



  • Ah, but what if the US is on the defense? What if the US goes to Solomon Islands, then what? How do you defend 3 money islands and your capital with 1 navy? His navy is 100% as strong as yours if you go double complexes and skip Pearl Harbor (1 sub, 2 car, 4 fighters, 2 battleships, 1 transport, 1 destroyer). Japan can put up more easy defense at will (another carrier) but the US player shouldn’t be trying to take out the Japanese navy so early. Zap away his islands (4+4+3 = 11 IPCs) and the US becomes a nearly 50 IPC nation against Japan which might remain a 30 IPC nation through expansion to offset island loss, but that’s a quickly lost war with the US easily outspending Japan in navy while Japan also needs to keep sending troops to keep his land gains.



  • Good Point.  The US off the solimans is a dangrous thing.  I’ll have to give it some thought.


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