India Complex: To be or not to be?



  • I know what you might be thinking: “hasn’t this fellow played a few games by now and come to the inevitable conclusion that a factory in India on the first UK turn is a death sentence for the allies?”

    Well, yes, I have in fact read the India complex strategy paper on Caspian Sub and the comments of several forum members to the effect that a complex in India is untenable. And I will agree that if overwheliming force is brought to bear upon it then it is in fact sure to fall. But I don’t see why it is a terrible move for the UK (though of course it probably is; but as I have played only a few games I do not have the evidence to back this). In the games I have played, the presence of a factory in India has forced japan to greatly slow their attack on russia and China, even if it will eventually be captured. Like the Aborted Canadian shield tactic or reinforcing the balitc fleet as germany, it may have preventative value even if it should “fail”. I’m not saying it does; but in those games where the UK has ignored india, Japan just rolls through so quickly and thoroughly that it seems a good deal of ground is lost for nought (more, perhaps, than 15 IPCs and an eventual extra Japanese factory is worth).

    So my question; what is to be done with the 15 IPCs saved for the UK? And please post evidence that it will be more useful long-term than the IPC in India.

    P.S: This is not a claim that the India Complex is a good move - rather, I’m trying to see why it is not.

    A note: in the games I have played, Japan has often neglected to transport their starting troops off of the island, opting instead to build factories. I know that this causes an early-game slowdown for the japs and might be skewing the results I have observed.



  • As you mentioned, the India IC cannot be defended.  The BEST you can do (and this surrenders Africa to Germany) to defend it under normal ciurcumstances is 5 INF, 1 FIG, 1 AA.  Egypt’s forces are most likely gone after G1, so you have TJ INF, Persia INF, the India AC Fig, and the 3 starting INF.  Against that Japan can bring 2 INF (MAYBE 4 if UK failed to kill the Kwang tranny), 4 FIG’s and a Bomber.  It is a costly battle, but winnable.

    Then Japan is building within tank range of Caucuses… so it IS a threat to Russia… a VERY strong threat.

    Add in Germany gaining the 9 IPC’s in Africa, UK being down the 3 in India and the 2 for Persia and T-J, and you knock out UK’s income before they finish building fleet (especially with the expense of the IC from UK1), so Germany is facing greatly reduced amphib forces against their own territories OR sent to support Russia’s northern territories…

    It is jsut a BAD move.

    As the Axis, I LOVE an India IC.  As the Allies… it is almost universally fatal against a good player.



  • I can see your point regarding Africa, (though the US can always re-take that anyway, right?)

    It just seems that when the UK ignores india, Japan is left alone to do as it pleases to too great an extent. maybe further play will show otherwise (especially once my opponents and I get good)



  • Japan becoming a superpower is as inevitable as the sun coming up (lets bar some very nice kjf play for the sake of this discussion, since an indian IC is pretty obvious during kjf play). The problem is that even if japan is twice as powerful as one ally, they are only as powerful as two. If germany is out of the picture, they cannot stand up to three, and that is where the game is won, in my opinion. Japan, without any allied intervention, cannot be at russia’s doorstep in absolute minimal force until round 3. However, through good play both on the east by russia, and on the west by the other allies, russia should be able to delay a japanese push into their IC’d territories until something like round 7, if not indefinitely. Of course, if the axis are playing well, this doesn’t happen and germany and japan are at russia’s doorstep at say, round 5, and this inevitably leads to russia’s defeat. As long as the allies can prevent germany from getting to russia in force, russia should be able to prevent japan showing up in enough force to take moscow for quite awhile.

    I think most people overestimate japan. There is no denying that in most games japan is or will become very powerful, it is more a question of timing. Japan as uber-powerful as they are before or after germany is gone is not important, or rather, does not have to be important. As long as russia can keep japan at bay long enough for germany to fall the game is over. In a successful allied version of KGF (which obviously does not always work), I divide the game into three sections.

    1. Germany’s eastward progression is halted due to russian agression, and mounting pressure from allied fleet landings in the north and potential threats in the west. This usually should commence around, I’d say round 3/4 I think.
    2. Russia can now ignore germany for the most part and turn around to face japan. This coincides roughly with around the time japan is near important russian territories, and is not taking into account minor skirmishes around china, india, and yakut/burytia. Until japan can turn its dominant economics into units on the front line, russia can remain at parity and then some with japan, keeping them at bay and from standing in novo or persia in force. Meanwhile allied pressure continues against germany, assisted from russia if possible.
    3. Germany falls. Russia if it cannot continue assaulting japan turtles up and holds out until allied troops can arrive in force. If this fails, russia falls, but if germany has fallen one or two rounds before, it doesn’t matter.

    That’s how I try and deal with it, anyhow. Your mileage (and mine) may vary.



  • I’m glad your bringing up this topic. I love hearing peoples ideas for Britains Forces in africa and aisa. To answer your question with what to do with the 15 IPC’s I have a suggestion. Buy a bomber or a fighter. Send a fighter and a bomber to russia on B1, also grab every thing you have in africa mid east and austrialia and make your way to persia. I’ve described this in detail b4 the idea is to try and unify the british forces in persia where they can actually fight Japan instead of getting picked off all over the place. Yes you are giving up Africa but you woulda lost it any way, same with india.  Disclaimer I’ve nvr tried this in game only triplea scenarios. I think that by B2 you can have substantial force in persia capable of defending Russia’s southern border and even pushing back into india.


  • 2007 AAR League

    I think that having an IIC is possible, to an extent.  During some of my playings, my friends have placed an IC there and actually been able to defend the place, even though the Japanese player was/is a superb player who is very aggressive.  So i guess it depends on a bit of dice luck and and how well you manage your forces if you have an IC there.



  • The Indian complex is not a 100% bad move, but I think that there are simply better things you can do with your IPCs. You can defend India for a while if you send some Russian troops there, but I don’t think it’s a wise idea to let the pressure up on Germany, which is what the IIC would do. Not only do you send something like 5+ infantry to India from Russia (if you want good odds on defense on a J3 full scale assault), but the UK spends 15 IPCs on the complex and at least 9 IPCs every round after that simply to stave off the Japanese instead of being used to offensively contain Germany. That gives the Germans a bit of leeway to hold out for quite some time.

    I don’t see the need for the IIC as I can consistently defeat the Axis in a no-bid situation without it. I don’t see how it would help a normal Allied strategy since it lets Germany survive and perhaps thrive for quite some time, and also gives the Japanese a complex once they can overpower it.



  • @ncscswitch:

    As you mentioned, the India IC cannot be defended.  The BEST you can do (and this surrenders Africa to Germany) to defend it under normal ciurcumstances is 5 INF, 1 FIG, 1 AA.  Egypt’s forces are most likely gone after G1, so you have TJ INF, Persia INF, the India AC Fig, and the 3 starting INF.  Against that Japan can bring 2 INF (MAYBE 4 if UK failed to kill the Kwang tranny), 4 FIG’s and a Bomber.  It is a costly battle, but winnable.

    Then Japan is building within tank range of Caucuses… so it IS a threat to Russia… a VERY strong threat.

    Add in Germany gaining the 9 IPC’s in Africa, UK being down the 3 in India and the 2 for Persia and T-J, and you knock out UK’s income before they finish building fleet (especially with the expense of the IC from UK1), so Germany is facing greatly reduced amphib forces against their own territories OR sent to support Russia’s northern territories…

    It is jsut a BAD move.

    As the Axis, I LOVE an India IC.  As the Allies… it is almost universally fatal against a good player.

    I have to agree with switch on this one…  I tinkered with a KJF strategy a short while back…  You can effectively slow down Japan for 2 rounds, but you can’t keep them from toppling India by round 4 at the latest.  Normally, Japan is more than able to drop a factory in Manchuria by round 4 as well…  This means that 12 tanks are now within striking distance of Moscow by round 7(plus whatever was shipped to Asia from the Island).  Keep in mind this is worst case scenario for Japan…     My recommendation is to build your stacks in Yakut in the first round, and back them off into Russia slowly keeping them out of striking distance of combined inf/tank/fig attacks.  You can even do the organized retreat idea with Russian, Brit, and US troops in the south(Yes…  give Japan India…  the IPC loss by Japan will be FAR less than the IPC loss for the Allies when Japan attacks India).  Japan’s suuply lines are long, and hard to effectively support.  Force Japan to spend its own IPCs putting factories on the ground.  Russia should be able to hold out till about round 8, which is enough time for the other allies to cripple(if not beat) Germany.  Russia falling in the same round(or even the round before) as Germany is a win for the Allies.  And, yes, our group plays for world domination in our games.

    Wilk



  • You can stack Bury in J1, limitting Japan to just China and India for occupations in J1, then retreat in R2 to Yakut, then on back to Novo.

    May seem like a minor point, but that 6 INF stack is too much for a 1 TRN Japan (assume UK kills the Kwang tranny in UK1) to tackle AND still make their required move in China.  It removes 1 IPC form Japan and keeps that 1 IPC for Russia an extra round.  And that 1 IPC edge is then maintained as you start the pull-back…

    So Russia keeps Bury through J1 instead of surrendering it in J1.  Then keeps Yakut through J2 instead of surrendering it and SFE in J2…  That 1 extra IPC a round is 1 more INF for Russia and 1 less for Japan once you reach your main staging area in Novo on R4 instead of R3.

    And an extra INF just for changing WHEN you move your forces back is a nice little pick-up in a game that can come down to very small differences in forces…

    Combine this with a FORWARD push into Sinkiang and Persia in R1 that slows Japan down on each of those fronts by another round (though this time at cost to Russia) and you actually shift 4 IPC’s a round for the first 3 rounds… keeping them Allied instead of letting Japan have them for cheap/free.  And of course the trade off to losing those Russian INF in Sinkiang and Persia is that most of Japan’s initial land forces are dead by the time they breach those lines, meaning all Japan land units needed to threaten Russia have to be trannied in, or built at brand new IC’s that can;t even roll out their first unit before J2 or use those units until J3.

    The exception to the rule is India.  UK has to give up those 3 IPC’s in order to preserve the 9 in Africa.



  • Ah finally you’ve come around to abandoning India  😉

    Your Bury stack idea is cool, but I like retreating the stack so I can push sinkiang when the Japanese hits China, which isn’t possible if those inf are off in Yakut.



  • Well russia kan put 1 armor there and 2 fighters. So it is pretty defendable.
    Actualy and it goes a bit at the cost of the atlantic theathre but if germany blocked your fleet this is a problem and if they did not you can still enforce russia with a few troops on UK2.

    I dont know but
    2 inf + 4 fig + 1 bomb
    versus
    5 inf
    1 arm
    3 fig
    1 AA

    Not sure if i like the odds on the attacker you will lose attack power of 3 versus defence power of 2 rough calculation is
    16 attackpoints VS 25 defencepoints. With lowluck dice you will lost as japan even without the russian armor there if you go on these odds why not try to invade UK on turn 1 😄

    Note i still like to play with 8VC since it removes the need for bidding and since axis can almost impossible take 2VC in turn 1 and hold them a try to take 2 is the same as a UK invasion on R1 yes if you are lucky you win but if you have that kind of luck against any other side you win anyway.



  • Nobody’s mentioned it- perhaps it’s assumed? The Asian wall has no chance whatsoever without a U.S. complex in Sinkiang, and lots of Russian help in both spots and in the north. It also requires allied aggression in the Pacific.

    Like Switch, I never use this strategy, because it takes away from Britain’s ability to put maximum pressure on Germany early in the game, and also gives up Africa until the U.S. can clean it up - allowing early German growth.

    I have had it used against me to good effect, but I eventually cracked it, and the allied player should always expect when building those complexes to lose them- the benefit gained from them is all about the time gained for Russia.

    If you use it, try it against an inexperienced player and it will be useful, but against veterans it will probably crack quickly.



  • The best I ever got from a non-IC Asian Wall was 5 rounds.  Not bad for only existing units in Asia.  And 5 rounds SHOULD be enough… unless you are screwing around doing silly stuff (like I did the round I accomplished that 5 rounds 😛 )


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