Pacific Allies should always attack Japan turn 2



  • If Japan does not bring America and the Pacific Allies into the war during their second turn, than UK Pacific and ANZAC should always attack Japan during their second turn. Reason being is that America will collect their national objectives at the end of their turn 3 anyways, so the Allies will be essentially sacrificing the “chance” of America being able to attack Japan on their turn 3, in exchange for the certainty of UKP and ANZAC attacking Japan on their turn 2.

    The added bonus is the 5 IPCs that UK Pacific will surly collect for their national objective instead of waiting for Japan to take it away from them by attacking Hong Kong first. Also, ANZAC should be in position to collect 10 IPCs in national objectives guaranteed as early as their turn 2 (with a transport to New Guinea of course).

    Finally, lets not forget the advantage of surprise when Japan loses units from an aggressive UK and ANZAC because they felt they were safe while being passive. Therefore, UK Pacific and ANZAC should always declare war on Japan turn 2 if Japan has not already declared war on them.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    Ha, how timely (for me).

    I’m in a bunch of forum games where this issue has presented itself several times.

    You raise good points, but I think my overall judgement is not to DOW by UK etc.

    Why?

    Mostly because it gives Japan a free turn to run wild without the US able to counter.

    If you have you US fleet off Aus then Japan has to worry about it.  If UK DOW r2 then Japan can ignore.

    Of course there is the PHI and GU etc. But as Japan, why worry if you can nuke most of the UK/Anzac forces scot-free!   :lol:  On round 4, you regroup to counter US before they can even attack.

    All this, of course, depends on game specifics. If Japan gets itself in a funky position, then maybe its ok, but likely not, IMO>


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    Also, bad to DOW w/UK r2 if US is poised to hit Gib.  You want to force Japan to bring in US sooner, not later.  Attack R2 relieves Japan of the hard choice.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    It does work sometimes,YG. I would not do it everyone. As Karl says, you have to consider the Atlantic amd how well Italy is doing.


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015

    I agree 100% with Karl and Wittmann. In fact I would even say “never” do it. The fact that Japan can regroup “charge free” is noth worth a couple of objectives. I rather kill a transport and a couple of destroyers with the USA on USA 3 (typically)



  • J3 is almost as good, if you are set up on J2 .
    Especially so, if you know UK+ Anzac will Attack on their turn 2. 
    I can see the Italians and Germans dancing a little jig at this… 😃



  • The time to attack as the allies is situational on what the situation on the board is and what advantages you can gain from attacking.

    Sometimes you even can attack round1 if you can take away a large part of japan air or ground forces in the attack and slow them down more then 2 turns.

    Some japan players leave themself spread out because they think nobody will attack them, so if you can use your UK fleet to take down a BB and a few transports round 1 and even amfib some japan land forces so china is safe at the same time why not. It only takes 1 setback to set japan back 2 turns on their plan.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    I used to be a big proponent of attacking the Japanese for the reasons mentioned, but it really depends on the board. If you can entice Japan to wait until J3 and have the DEI with UK/Anzac, you can get the extra income / empty out the islands and have a really strong force on the ground.



  • Great points everyone, I suppose “always” attack Japan should really read “strongly consider” attacking Japan.


  • 2019 2018 Customizer

    Interesting topic YG. We never attack Japan first as the allies, but we hardly see games where Japan waits for turn 3.

    But I see your points about the objectives and such, so will definitely try this if I get the opportunity.



  • I suppose it comes down to wanting to be offensive or defensive as the Allies.

    If you don’t attack, Japan will dictate where you have to move/be.

    If you attack, Japan will have to play by your game and react to your moves.

    It is a good way to test Allied strategies as Japan can’t ignore the Allies in the Pacific.
    It must engage them if they are aggressive or lose troops/income (which it can’t afford to lose).


  • 2018 2017 2016

    It may come in handy if you see Japan getting prepared for a Launch at India or DEI’s and you have a UK DD left to perform a sneaky Karl. 8-)


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    Of course, we are forgetting the unilateral DOW by ANZAC to stymie Japan transports, also know as:

    THE SNEAKY KARL!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkj_9K3lfQk

    (While it’s nice to have something great like that named after me, part of me thinks it should be called “Gargantua’s Bane,” given the move came to fame after I sprung it on him and he refused to believe it was legal and emailed Larry Harris, who then called the move “BS” but still legal. Hahahahahahah!  For anyone who wants the whole story, go here:https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=40132.0)


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    Oh! I see AV beat me to it!

    Jinx!


  • 2018 2017 2016

    By 2 minutes 3 seconds Ha ha ha


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    wow!  That’s how I want my beer delivered!


  • 2016 2015 '10

    I almost always declare on Japan Uk2 (and sometimes UK1, against opponents who leave openings).  The cash influx and strategic gains from declaring are too much to give up.

    The main way it can go bad is if there’s a very strong Barbarossa push and USA can’t get fighters to help Moscow in time.  That puts all the burden on UK Europe to help Moscow.

    It usually takes a combination of factors to convince me not to declare UK2–namely some combination of 1) Japan is blocking access to more islands (like Celebes, New Guniea, etc) with its navy (which UK/Anzac can still get if they don’t declare) 2) there are good reasons to want USA operating in the Atlantic on turn 3 rather than turn 4 3) a Yunnan stack isn’t viable.



  • Karl/AV … that move and another subsequent move was already described in detail on Nov 30, 2014.
    Check it out here Bud…
    https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34893.0



  • If Japan doesn’t declare on J1, UK is dropping a Carrier and Linking it up with the Battleship in SZ37. If they do a J3, thats more time for the UK Pac to build up land units and get 2 more of the Money Islands. ANZAC should also jump on Java. Eventually the 2 Fleets you built with ANZAC and UK should link up or go with the US fleet. If its a Calcutta crush, then the sneaky karl is the best way to go. You should see it coming from a mile away.



  • UK Pac aircraft carrier is one of my favorite under rated UK moves, contingent on whether there is a J1 or not. If no J1, depending on the Jap staging, drop an AC in UK pac, ANZAC aims for the NO money in New Guinea, and that UK2 declaration of war is a strong consideration.



  • That move (I named Mahatma Gambit)… where the UK DD or BB is places with the Japanese Navy, (in peace - hence the “ Mahatma”)  and Anzac declares … screwing up the Japanese Transport Combat … was played on the Day-after-Thanksgiving game on Frin Nov 28th,2014 in Seattle, WA. There were 7 people who played that day.

    Details are here:
    https://www.meetup.com/Tacoma-Axis-and-Allies-Meet-Up-Group/events/204823582/

    Some of those players are members and contributors here.

    No mention of such a move was ever mentioned in this Forum before then, and before you know it… there were people trying to “rename” it…

    Just for the record.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    @MeinHerr:

    That move (I named Mahatma Gambit)… where the UK DD or BB is places with the Japanese Navy, (in peace - hence the � Mahatma�)  and Anzac declares … screwing up the Japanese Transport Combat … was played on the Day-after-Thanksgiving game on Frin Nov 28th,2014 in Seattle, WA. There were 7 people who played that day.

    Details are here:
    https://www.meetup.com/Tacoma-Axis-and-Allies-Meet-Up-Group/events/204823582/
     
    Some of those players are members and contributors here.

    No mention of such a move was ever mentioned in this Forum before then, and before you know it… there were people trying to �rename� it…

    Just for the record.

    Hey MeinHerr!    :lol:

    I fully admit that I didn’t invent it.  I think I came across it when it was used against me awhile back in the league.

    The “Sneaky Karl” thing stemmed from me using it against Gargantua in a FtoF in Vancouver BC.  Garg refused to believe it and emailed Larry Harris himself.  Larry responded and called the move “bull*hit” if I recall, but Krieg confirmed its legality.

    Then Garg used it in Grasshopper’s tourney and called it the Sneaky Karl.  General Handgrenade saw this and then made a video about the move, calling it thus.

    I don’t really care what it’s called.  Mahatma Gambit is pretty good too.  Or how about “The Anzac Steamer”… LOL.

    Not sure anyone can claim a “right” to name a move that is contemplated by the rules.  Frankly, I think it’s pretty gamey and should be changed so that Anzac DOW doesn’t bring in UK.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    Hey MeinHerr, just for fun I checked out your meet up post from November 28, 2014.  Didn’t see the Sneaky Karl/Mahatma Gambit/Anzac Steamer/Gargantua’s Bane being played…  Did I miss it?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    GHG named the move prior to the TG6CON tournament after reviewing our dispute spill over into the forums haha

    Mahatma Gambit 0

    Sneaky Karl 1


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    I remember now, Larry Harris called it “BS” in short form.

    So, as the creator of the game, MeinHerr, I think he has the ultimate right and priority to name such things.

    Let the move forever be known as the “BS Move.”

    Sorry MeinHerr…  :lol:


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