Russia Question



  • Italy declares war and captures say East Poland…Italy has 1 Tank remaining.
    Germany does not declare war but reinforces with 11 Infantry 4 Artillery 6 tanks and 2 tac and 2 fighters
    Russia does not declare war on Germany but attacks East Poland and the Italian tank with 16 Infantry 4 Artillery and 3 Mech and 5 Tanks
    Now East Poland is occupied by both German and Russian forces….Russians declare to the Germans they must withdraw

    On Germany’s turn they must withdraw or declare war…correct?
    I am certain the Russian attack is only on Italian forces and not the combined German Italian force as East Poland is an originally controlled territory of the Russians


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016

    You would be unable to attack East Poland in this situation without first declaring war on Germany.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    In the situation described above, either Russia declares war on Germany and attacks the German and the Italian units in East Poland, or Russia does not declare war on Germany and is barred from attacking the German and the Italian units in East Poland.

    @Axis:

    Powers Not at War with One Another
    Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war…

    You might be thinking of the at-sea addendum to the combat section…
    @Axis:

    … If a power at war attacks a sea zone containing units belonging to both a power with which it’s already at war and a power with which it’s not at war, the latter power’s units are ignored. Those units won’t participate in the battle in any way, and a state of war with that power will not result.

    -Midnight_Reaper



  • This is incorrect….East Poland is a original Russian territory…Germans are neutral…Russia may in fact and has the right to regain it’s territory back from a combatant…neutral Germany now must decide to withdraw or declare war and stay in the territory

    no different than placing a UKP destroyer in an occupied sea zone by the Japanese then Anzac declare war making that a hostile sea zone making it illegal to load transports…



  • Midnight Reaper….there is in fact a combatant in that territory…you would be right if it was only a neutral Germany only in East Poland…this is not the case…there is a Italian combatant in the territory



  • Movement by the Germans into Russia should be a deceleration of war by Germany in my opinion….this is a broken rule that should be clarified more precisely as I am positive Russia may regain it’s territory. Quite broken that Germany can non combat move and collect a bonus for not at war with Russia while it is occupying the territory with absolutely 0 benefit to the Russians and hindering their defense even more

    WAY BROKEN


  • 2017 2016 2015

    yea I think in BM they made it so you can’t move into original Russian TTs without being at war with them. Seems like a good fix


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @Leatherneckinlv:

    This is incorrect….East Poland is a original Russian territory…Germans are neutral…Russia may in fact and has the right to regain it’s territory back from a combatant…neutral Germany now must decide to withdraw or declare war and stay in the territory

    Some misunderstandings of the rules here: Germany is not neutral, as it starts the game already being at war. The rules don’t contain a concept of a nation being at war on the one hand and on the other hand being neutral to other nations. A power is either at war or neutral. At the start of the game only USA and Russia are neutral.
    In the given scenario Germany is at war - but not with Russia.

    It is completely irrelevant, that East Poland is an original Russian territory. At the time Germany does the NCM East Poland is Italian and thus friendly to Germany.

    Of course Russia may regain its territory, but it has to declare war on Germany for doing so and fight both occupying nations.

    Also the rules don’t contain the concept of a retreating defender. When Russia attacks East Poland it is only Russia that may - during the battle - retreat, provided the retreat rules apply. Neither do the rules contain a concept of a neutral nation that retreats.

    @Leatherneckinlv:

    Midnight Reaper….there is in fact a combatant in that territory…you would be right if it was only a neutral Germany only in East Poland…this is not the case…there is a Italian combatant in the territory

    No, if Russia wants to attack East Poland it must declare war on Germany - so there are two combattants to fight against.

    @Leatherneckinlv:

    Movement by the Germans into Russia should be a deceleration of war by Germany in my opinion….this is a broken rule that should be clarified more precisely as I am positive Russia may regain it’s territory. Quite broken that Germany can non combat move and collect a bonus for not at war with Russia while it is occupying the territory with absolutely 0 benefit to the Russians and hindering their defense even more

    No. Germany does not move into a Russian territory but into an Italian - thus friendly - territory. Not a broken rule, but a core rule of Axis&Allies games that allows to bring units into friendly territories.

    Marsh and Midnight_Reaper are correct.



  • I just play tested this on tripleA and in fact I only had to battle the Italian units and Germany and Russia were in same territory co occupying after the Russian victory

    Only thing missing is the verbal instructions by the Russians telling the Germans to withdraw leaving a decision by the Germans to either withdraw or declare war

    So yes Russia may only attack the Italians and instruct the Germans to withdraw


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @Leatherneckinlv:

    Only thing missing is the verbal instructions by the Russians telling the Germans to withdraw leaving a decision by the Germans to either withdraw or declare war

    So yes Russia may only attack the Italians and instruct the Germans to withdraw

    This is not covered by the rulebooks in any way. Please read my above clarification.



  • Panther

    Germany is not at war with Russia though….they are neutrals to one another

    State of war only exists between Italy and Russia



  • So Russia is attacking Italy…which it can do

    Germans were non combat moved there…Russia may in fact ignore the Germans


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @Leatherneckinlv:

    Panther

    Germany is not at war with Russia though….they are neutrals to one another

    State of war only exists between Italy and Russia

    They are not at war, but neither they are neutral. And the territory is Italian and no longer Russian.
    And all of this leads to the fact that Russia has to declare war on Germany for being able to attack East Poland.

    Midnight_Reaper had the correct quote from the rulebook about that (see above). Russia can’t attack without DOW on Germany.



  • Italians attack Russia, Germany is automatically at war with Russia, that is the assumption that my group has always used.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    Another thing to remember is that Italy can-opening for Germany doesn’t stop Russia from declaring war on Germany and punching the Germans in the mouth (emphasis added):

    @Axis:

    The Political Situation
    The Soviet Union
    The Soviet Union begins the game at war with no one.
    {snip}
    As a result, the Soviet Union may not declare war on any Axis power before its fourth turn unless an Axis power declares war on it first. However, if London is captured by an Axis power, the Soviet Union may declare war on its following turn.

    But you must declare war on Germany before you can attack a territory with German units inside.

    -Midnight_Reaper



  • The neutral rule can not apply here

    those neutral rules are not considering a state of war between 2 countries with a neutral country occupying

    this predicament is no where to be found as those neutral rules apply ONLY to peaceful countries and territories

    This is NOT the same situation

    those rules are not applicable here….if you read carefully no where is there an explanation for a territory at war…all explanations are for territories at peace
    This hypothetical territory is at war



  • Russia did in fact make it clear to Germany that it is not declaring war on Germany and attacking a hostile zone with a declared state of war with Italy

    Russia hence MAY ignore German units

    territory is already hostile

    This scenario can not be found in the rule book

    Rule book only identifies peaceful territories ONLY, remember this is now a hostile territory



  • Russia can attack a Russian territory that has been captured. If the Germans move into that territory, after being captured, I think the assumption would be that they have also declared war on Russia.

    If The Italians captured a Russian territory, and Germany did not go on a full blown offensive on their next turn, and instead decided to consolidate to the Italian captured territory, what would the purpose of this be? Show the Russians and ultimately the Allies exactly what direction you are going, and take it slow? Doesn’t make sense. And furthermore, the rules don’t make it very clear, but if the Italians attack the Russians and take a territory, and the Germans occupy it, that is a declaration of war. Total war in Europe begins.



  • No Tambo…Germans did not declare war on Russia and non combat moved into the territory to continue getting the 5 IPC bonus for not at war with Russia

    Russia then did not declare war on Germany in return and attacked the Italian units and regained the 1 IPC loss

    Germany was entitled to get the 5 IPC bonus



  • Russia was now at war and allowed to gain their bonus income


  • Official Answers

    Marshmallow of War, Midnight_Reaper, and P@nther are correct.  TripleA is handling this situation incorrectly.



  • Those who disagree….show me the rule…I have read said rule and this scenario is no where to be found

    I want this enigmatic paradigm answered for when I play among my friends

    As I read it…this is a legal Russian move…undetermined by the rules

    All rules say Powers not at war…meaning peaceful territory
    This territory is at war

    Show me the rule not your perception of the rule and I am not saying this in arrogance or by being a butt-head…I want this rule to be clear with me



  • @Leatherneckinlv:

    Those who disagree….show me the rule…I have read said rule and this scenario is no where to be found

    Midnight Reaper did quote the rule in like the 3rd post.

    Pg 14 (from my Pacific 2nd edition book)
    blow up box in top left corner:

    “Powers Not at War with One Another”
    3rd paragraph
    Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    I’ve been quoting from the rule book. Read the “The Political Situation” section, “The Soviet Union” subsection, on page 9 and “Powers Not at War with One Another” section on page 15, from the Europe 1940 rule book. That’s where you will find what we’ve been quoting to you.

    -Midnight_Reaper



  • Those rules do not apply in this scenario

    The Soviet Union was attacked by Italy….both Germany and Russia did not declare war with each other on their turns

    That territory is AT WAR

    That territory is a Russian territory

    Powers not at war applies to say Sweden…this is not the case

    I have read these rules over and over and over and none are applicable to this scenario…NONE

    Again…this was an originally controlled Russian territory…2 Italy declared war…Germany did not…Russia ONLY declared war on Italy and did not with the Germans and in fact Germans made sure not to declare war on Russia to collect it’s bonus

    Folks…the rules do not indicate how to handle this properly

    Based on what I read this makes it a legal Russian move


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