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In doing J1, in favor of attacking Hawaii



  • IF you’re a J1 fan, why not attack the U.S. fleet at Hawaii, too?  This last week I decided to try this in a game and it worked great.  As it played out, the U.S. had no naval assets gathered on Hawaii until U.S.3 and 4, but by then, Japan makes 50-60 ipc and can do a much better job of going toe-to-toe with them.  I’m not sure what would happen if U.S.’ west coast had survived and Japan simply sailed away.  Maybe toward ANZAC?

    Usually I avoid bringing the U.S. into the war right away because of the massive N.O., but, an aggressive J1 that includes Hawaii let’s you destroy their fleet there and the Phillipines, rather than consolidating.  Depending on your risk, you can sail away in tact, or only bring 2 carriers and see if you can weather his counter.  I got lucky and U.S.1 counter failed.  He lost everything, Japan had a wounded battleship left, leaving the U.S. with literally 2 transports, 1 cruiser, no planes.

    What I did was only 2 carriers to Hawaii, Caroline Islands carrier went to the Phillipines…
    Attacks include
    SZ 37: the British battleship (20 ipc) with Japan’s cruiser and either two bombers, or a bomber and a fighter
    SZ 35: the Philippines, U.S. sub and destroyer (14 ipc total) with SZ 19’s 1 Submarine, 1 Battleship, 1 Destroyer
    SZ 26: Hawaii, US.’ 1 Submarine, 1 Destroyer, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport (34 ipc total) with SZ 6’s sub, 2 destroyers, 2 carriers, cruiser, battleship AND SZ 33’s destroyer (and possibly carrier)

    Land attacks include Philippines, Hong Kong, Borneo, and the usual China territories.

    I also changed the planes on SZ6s carriers to all regular fighters for the defense boost.
    J1 ended with Japan at 40ipc, India at 10 ipc

    The ideas I’m struggling with…

    • should Japan send its SZ6 transport to take the Aleutians and knock down another U.S. N.O.?  IF the U.S. counter attacks your Hawaii fleet, it will need everything including the bomber and fighter on the Europe side of the board.  If it opts to send anything after your transport, that’s better for Japan, right?  But I usually send 2 transports to the Philippines and 1 to Borneo.  Or is it worth it to take Midway or something?

    • and can Japan afford to send its 3rd carrier, in the Carolines, to Hawaii instead of going to the Philippines?  I think that’s pretty risky for the Philippines attack, which is then J1 2 inf, 1 art, 1 tank against 2 inf and a fighter.

    I’m thinking the best move is to use all 3 transports for Japan like usual, which for me is Phillipines and Borneo, so J2 you can take the money islands, and your J1 buy includes a transport that on J2 will take Hawaii.



  • The reason against it because it delays the Japanese Army from getting to Boreno and the Dutch Islands to get yourself $20 while at the same time giving US an excuse to gain their NO faster thus more money in the long run.

    However, the pro about doing this is that you knockout half of the US pacific fleet in one turn and it also allows you to reinforce Hawaii as much as you can to keep it as a victory city. The downfall about this is that US will try to liberate it and thus you will have to cut your fleets into 2 or even 3 sections to fight all the allies.



  • But what would be left at hawai round 1?
    You attack with 1 sub 2 destr 1 cruiser 1 bb and 2 carriers with 4 planes

    Then the US attacks that fleet with 1 destroyer 1 cruiser 1 bb 1 carrier 5 planes 1 bomber -> sure this is suicide but the idea is mutual annihilation.

    And the leftovers will be killed by anzac forces 2 fighters and 1 cruiser

    Now neither you nor the US have a sizable fleet, you have spend 28 income US can spend 50, anzac can spend 10 and UK-pac and china can play the land war.
    Next round anzac can spend 20 and US 70 while you get to spend 40 which you have to split between naval and land forces.

    So i would love it if you did  this against the US, ill spend 2 rounds on pacific and basicaly get japan out of the war. After that the fleet is big enough that with anzac combined they can take back the money islands and convoy japan out of the game.



  • Well I used to do J1 with combined attacks against both Philli and Hawaii with the transports going for Phili and then buying transports to take Hawaii on J2. But I have changed over the months and I sometimes wonder if going for Boreno and Dutch Islands to kill India and China is better always.



  • If I do a J1 I don’t bring my carriers to Hawaii, I only bring just enough to wipe out the fleet. I place them at midway along with the rest of the fleet from sz6 and take midway with a transport. This way if US decides to attack I can land with my planes on midway. If US attack I will probably lose my carriers but replacing them is a lot cheaper when the planes are still there. Another upside is that ANZAC cannot reach them.

    I never try to take Hawaii J2 since I think its a lost cause and Japan is never able to hold it without diverting all its resource to it


  • 2018 2017 2016

    @ShadowHAwk:

    But what would be left at hawai round 1?
    You attack with 1 sub 2 destr 1 cruiser 1 bb and 2 carriers with 4 planes

    Then the US attacks that fleet with 1 destroyer 1 cruiser 1 bb 1 carrier 5 planes 1 bomber -> sure this is suicide but the idea is mutual annihilation.

    And the leftovers will be killed by anzac forces 2 fighters and 1 cruiser

    Now neither you nor the US have a sizable fleet, you have spend 28 income US can spend 50, anzac can spend 10 and UK-pac and china can play the land war.
    Next round anzac can spend 20 and US 70 while you get to spend 40 which you have to split between naval and land forces.

    So i would love it if you did  this against the US, ill spend 2 rounds on pacific and basicaly get japan out of the war. After that the fleet is big enough that with anzac combined they can take back the money islands and convoy japan out of the game.

    Why would it be suicidal?

    If the US sub should Hit, let the IJN BB absorb the hit. All other hits are taken by Japans Ftr’s.
    After the Battle is over, reinforce your Fleet w. Ftr’s from Japan.
    Problem solved.
    Sometimes i bring a loaded TT for amphib. assault to Havaii to make the US player thinking about to scramble.



  • @Caesar:

    The reason against it because it delays the Japanese Army from getting to Boreno and the Dutch Islands to get yourself $20 while at the same time giving US an excuse to gain their NO faster thus more money in the long run.

    However, the pro about doing this is that you knockout half of the US pacific fleet in one turn and it also allows you to reinforce Hawaii as much as you can to keep it as a victory city. The downfall about this is that US will try to liberate it and thus you will have to cut your fleets into 2 or even 3 sections to fight all the allies.

    I still too Borneo on J1, and the rest of the money islands J2, protected by a battleship, destroyer, and possibly still with a sub and cruiser.  Plenty for keeping ANZAC away.

    For money, J1 collected 40 ipc,
    J2 56+ ipc

    US earns an extra 46 ipc (they miss 7 a turn from losing the Philippines) or 40 ipc, of you take Hawaii J2. BUT you destroy 24 ipc at the Phillipines and 34 ipc at Hawaii that you usually couldn’t.

    If you bring 2 carriers and he attacks, the loses will be about even.  Bring your 3rd and he really shouldn’t counter at all.



  • @aequitas:

    @ShadowHAwk:

    But what would be left at hawai round 1?
    You attack with 1 sub 2 destr 1 cruiser 1 bb and 2 carriers with 4 planes

    Then the US attacks that fleet with 1 destroyer 1 cruiser 1 bb 1 carrier 5 planes 1 bomber -> sure this is suicide but the idea is mutual annihilation.

    And the leftovers will be killed by anzac forces 2 fighters and 1 cruiser

    Now neither you nor the US have a sizable fleet, you have spend 28 income US can spend 50, anzac can spend 10 and UK-pac and china can play the land war.
    Next round anzac can spend 20 and US 70 while you get to spend 40 which you have to split between naval and land forces.

    So i would love it if you did� this against the US, ill spend 2 rounds on pacific and basicaly get japan out of the war. After that the fleet is big enough that with anzac combined they can take back the money islands and convoy japan out of the game.

    Why would it be suicidal?

    If the US sub should Hit, let the IJN BB absorb the hit. All other hits are taken by Japans Ftr’s.
    After the Battle is over, reinforce your Fleet w. Ftr’s from Japan.
    Problem solved.
    Sometimes i bring a loaded TT for amphib. assault to Havaii to make the US player thinking about to scramble.

    The US attack on that fleet will be suicidal but since japan cannot use the carriers as soakers hits will quickly go towards fighters.
    After that attack the anzac can finish off the severely depleted japan fleet before it can repair or get away.

    Basicaly you move there, the allies can do a 1-2 punch and destroy that fleet



  • @ShadowHAwk:

    Why would it be suicidal?

    If the US sub should Hit, let the IJN BB absorb the hit. All other hits are taken by Japans Ftr’s.
    After the Battle is over, reinforce your Fleet w. Ftr’s from Japan.
    Problem solved.

    The US attack on that fleet will be suicidal but since japan cannot use the carriers as soakers hits will quickly go towards fighters.
    After that attack the anzac can finish off the severely depleted japan fleet before it can repair or get away.

    Basicaly you move there, the allies can do a 1-2 punch and destroy that fleet

    ANZAC ships can’t hit Hawaii on turn 1, just 3 fighters.  I’ll be honest, if the scenario leaves Japan with a BB, destroyer, and sub or cruiser, (at Phillipines) and the only allied assets are ANZAC’s cruiser/destroyer, and maybe a plane, that’s a big win.

    But usually I think  J2 you can retreat.  Or, if the the U.S. player is careless, even attack SZ 10 and convoy the U.S.  Fresh fighters for your carriers can still reach there.  Or your retreat can take you straight at ANZAC.  That would be fun, too.



  • If it’s still there, the cruiser off NZ can move 3 spaces using the naval base to the Hawaii sea zone



  • @Elsass-Lorraine:

    If it�s still there, the cruiser off NZ can move 3 spaces using the naval base to the Hawaii sea zone

    Ah, yes, I missed that, though my point stands.  If the counter attack required ANZAC to succeed, it means the U.S. lost everything except a few ground forces, 1 cruiser, and 2 transports.  That would be a HUGE win for Japan if you also took out an ANZAC fighter or cruiser (or two).  You still have assets, your income goes up quickly, so you can actually keep up with the U.S.’ rebuild.  I guess it would slow down the Calcutta crush, but it didn’t slow me down on the mainland or the money islands.


  • 2018 2017

    When I attack it, I always lose the backup forces, so it costs me more than 1 CA 1 DD 1 SUB 1 TT.  Whats there isn’t worth much.  Then, to add to the disadvantage, if it was an even or unfavorable TUV trade, USA gets the money like you said which means you are beginning the game with a more difficult road of building along with USA hit for hit.  Japan’s income takes a while to get boosted.

    As to your questions

    take aleut?  not at this early juncture.  Do that later.  Again, its a fun annoyance but its not difficult for USA to swat.
    transport distribution?  you will need every one you have and every one you build to “ring the bell” and grab the $$ territory income/hit the objectives in order and early.  The TTs cannot be used to do other stuff like bridge or take minor targets and still mop up every dollar.
    carrier distribution?  the one at carolines has to bridge the planes into the battle on J1, right?  so if you replace it with one of the main fleet ones, you have 1-2 at phil/37 and 1 at carolines.  not optimal for india, but gives you more flex to use and shuttlebomb (switchout) with planes wherever you put these so obviously you want to stage them where you need plane-power to blast your targets.



  • @Maxiheimer:

    If I do a J1 I don’t bring my carriers to Hawaii, I only bring just enough to wipe out the fleet. I place them at midway along with the rest of the fleet from sz6 and take midway with a transport. This way if US decides to attack I can land with my planes on midway. If US attack I will probably lose my carriers but replacing them is a lot cheaper when the planes are still there. Another upside is that ANZAC cannot reach them.

    I never try to take Hawaii J2 since I think its a lost cause and Japan is never able to hold it without diverting all its resource to it

    Thanks for this idea.  When I thought about J2 Hawaii, it wasn’t about keeping it, just figuring out ways to make the U.S. lose money, so I like your way better, I think.

    Mostly, for those against the idea of attacking the Hawaiian fleet, what else are you going to do with Japan’s SZ6 fleet?  Isn’t it a problem?  If I leave SZ6, I get convoyed and lose Korea, for instance.  If I stay, I can’t keep up with the U.S. buys anyway and by US4 I’m too far behind.

    For my experience, here is the difference in income:
    With J1 DOW     /     with J3 DOW
    J1 40 ipc                       40 ipc
    J2 58/59 ipc                  43 ipc
    J3 63-65 ipc                  58-61 ipc

    Japan +15 to 20 ipc; -6 to -19 (depending on losses)
    UKP -17 ipc -20 (battleship)
    U.S. +46 ipc -58 (fleets at Hawaii and Philippines, fighter at Philippines)

    And if the U.S. counters at Hawaii, losses should be even in ipcs, but if you’re lucky, can swing to Japan’s favor by 20-40 ipcs.
    So the extra income and time I get to tear down India’s income, build factories for mainland attacks (I do love me some tanks) is great when the U.S. navy can’t show up for 3+ turns.



  • Update:

    So I’ve run the U.S. counter attack in Triple A game 10 times, and done this in real life once, using 2 Japanese carriers and adding a destroyer from the Caroline Islands.

    Only 3 in 10 tries did the U.S. win (with 1-3 hits alive).  Usually Japan had 3 hits left, so a wounded battleship, a carrier, possibly even a cruiser seems the likely outcome, leading to ANZAC’s optional attack with a cruiser and 3 fighters.

    Peak variance: Japan’s best was 5 surviving hits; U.S. had 3.



  • I love to hit Hawaii w/J1 attack. You can hit every thing you normally do w/J1, plus take out a few more US ships. What you can’t do IMO is go all in and leave your fleet exposed at Hawaii to a counter attack. You can still hit the US fleet at Phil, and take the island using your other two tpts, and carrier planes. The UK BB is still a viable target, and so is Kwangtung and FIC (I like to build minor ICs on both J2).

    I don’t agree with stationing your fleet at Midway J1, because the US San Fran fleet can hit you. I go to Wake because it is much safer and you can block out the US San Fran fleet.

    I hit Hawaii with 1ss, 2 dd’s, 2frts, 2tacs. The important thing is to have a dd survive the battle (even if it costs you planes). Having a dd survive in sz26 blocks out the US San Fran fleet so it can’t be used in the counter attack on Wake. You then NCM your cruiser, BB and 2 carriers to Wake to pick up the air units. Also make sure you leave a couple planes on Japan to NCM in to replace any air you might have lost in the battle. I generally take Wake on J1 so that if the allies (US/Anz) try to double hit my Wake fleet my planes have somewhere to land. I can take the first 3 hits on my capital ships, and the planes can land safely (believe me the allies won’t hit you if you took Wake). I have played where I don’t take Wake a couple times so I can take Borneo instead, but you run the risk of a double attack at Wake (US air strike followed by Anz).

    The US would be hard pressed to move its home fleet up to Hawaii on US1 with you sitting right next to him at Wake, especially if you took Wake and have 3-4 air units sitting on Japan. J2 I generally retreat to Caroline’s, but it would depend on what the US did on US1. J2 I like to take Malaya so the Anz doesn’t keep that NO, and Borneo if I can (using the Phil force). Then the rest of the spice islands J3. You can also force the UK to turtle if you buy a NB for FIC J2, and bring down the 3 loaded transports you bough J1.

    I will say that Asia (China) will be a little thin, and has some early challenges. That’s why I like to build those IC’s on FIC and Hong Kong J2 so I can pump out some ground units J3.

    When the US gets sucker punched and loses all those support ships it has a hard time deciding what side to build/rebuild on. The shackles are off, but they don’t have the navy to do squat for at least a couple turns.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    Haven’t looked at this in a while, but if you skip the scramble and counterattack with everything, that doesn’t look good for Japan (my broad recollection).



  • @Omega1759:

    Haven’t looked at this in a while, but if you skip the scramble and counterattack with everything, that doesn’t look good for Japan (my broad recollection).

    That’s the scenario I ran today 10+ times.  The U.S. only survives about 1/3 the time using everything it can against Japan’s SZ6 fleet with the destroyer from Caroline Islands included.  However, checking, it looks like Japan had all its units, and had not lost anything in the original attack, so maybe IF they take a hit in the original attack on Hawaii fleet, they should lose a plane, not the sub, because they can replace the plane on the non-combat move.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @weddingsinger:

    @Omega1759:

    Haven’t looked at this in a while, but if you skip the scramble and counterattack with everything, that doesn’t look good for Japan (my broad recollection).

    That’s the scenario I ran today 10+ times.  The U.S. only survives about 1/3 the time using everything it can against Japan’s SZ6 fleet with the destroyer from Caroline Islands included.  However, checking, it looks like Japan had all its units, and had not lost anything in the original attack, so maybe IF they take a hit in the original attack on Hawaii fleet, they should lose a plane, not the sub, because they can replace the plane on the non-combat move.

    That includes the Eastern US fighter which can land on the carrier?

    If the counterattack isn’t good for the US, for Japan to have a good portion of their fleet out of position and having US income activity is an issue already.



  • It does include both the fighter and bomber on the U.S.’ Europe side of the map.

    The issue is… it looks good for the U.S.  My opponent thought so, for sure.  Especially since Japan can’t just wound its carriers right away.  They’re forced to lose planes.

    But so what about being ‘out of position’?  For what?  I asked this up thread… what do you usually use that fleet for?  If I move, I get convoyed and lose Korea to the U.S. on US3.  So, then I have to stay in SZ6 anyway…


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @weddingsinger:

    It does include both the fighter and bomber on the U.S.’ Europe side of the map.

    The issue is… it looks good for the U.S.  My opponent thought so, for sure.  Especially since Japan can’t just wound its carriers right away.  They’re forced to lose planes.

    But so what about being ‘out of position’?  For what?  I asked this up thread… what do you usually use that fleet for?  If I move, I get convoyed and lose Korea to the U.S. on US3.  So, then I have to stay in SZ6 anyway…

    Taking DEI, the Philippines, protect transports and forcing India to turtle. The fleet doesn’t need to occupy SZ6, it just needs to dead zone it.



  • @Omega1759:

    @weddingsinger:

    It does include both the fighter and bomber on the U.S.’ Europe side of the map.

    The issue is… it looks good for the U.S.  My opponent thought so, for sure.  Especially since Japan can’t just wound its carriers right away.  They’re forced to lose planes.

    But so what about being ‘out of position’?  For what?  I asked this up thread… what do you usually use that fleet for?  If I move, I get convoyed and lose Korea to the U.S. on US3.  So, then I have to stay in SZ6 anyway…

    Taking DEI, the Philippines, protect transports and forcing India to turtle. The fleet doesn’t need to occupy SZ6, it just needs to dead zone it.

    I do all those things with all the other ships Japan has, SZ19, etc.  What is dead zone’ing it?



  • I am not a fan of taking significant risks on the first round unless there is going to be a hugely positive outcome.  The United States can lose the Pearl Harbor fleet and still quickly recover.  If something goes wrong for Japan in that attack, their fleet is very vulnerable to a counterattack.  Additionally, if there are any issues in the attacks on the Money Islands or Yunnan during the first couple of turns, Japan is in huge trouble.

    I like to bring a couple of Russian fast movers into China on R1.  If Japan goes risky and gets bad dice, that tank and mech combined with some planes will be enough to change the outcome of the mainland Asia battles.


  • 2016 2015 '10

    My reason not to do this is I need those ACs protecting my fleet to ensure rapid conquest of the islands.  If I send the bulk of the fleet to Hawaii on Turn 1, it will take longer to secure Malaya and the money islands and it will be easier for Allies to swipe my transports (6, 35, off Borneo).  Attacking Pearl means it takes 2 turns for the Japanese fleet to move back to somewhere more useful.

    Also, diverting some of your fighters deep into the Pacific takes some pressure off India and China in the crucial early rounds.

    I like the desire to bag the Pearl Harbor ipc swing, but it’s not quite worth the adverse consequences.  Sumatra is an 8 swing if UK controls it after UK1.  Malaya is an 11 swing.  The money’s in the orient.



  • One of the reasons why I used to do an attack on Pearl Harbor was because it cripples the allies in the west for some time however I believe you need to bring everything that can reach Pearl Harbor to Pearl Harbor otherwise the US player may be ballsy and take their San Diego fleet against Japan and then you might also get attacked by ANZAC with their Australian Air Corp and the New Zealand navy. However I believe if you drag the US into the war, you are moving away from Boreno and the Dutch Islands.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @Zhukov44:

    My reason not to do this is I need those ACs protecting my fleet to ensure rapid conquest of the islands.  If I send the bulk of the fleet to Hawaii on Turn 1, it will take longer to secure Malaya and the money islands and it will be easier for Allies to swipe my transports (6, 35, off Borneo).  Attacking Pearl means it takes 2 turns for the Japanese fleet to move back to somewhere more useful.
     
    Also, diverting some of your fighters deep into the Pacific takes some pressure off India and China in the crucial early rounds.

    I like the desire to bag the Pearl Harbor ipc swing, but it’s not quite worth the adverse consequences.  Sumatra is an 8 swing if UK controls it after UK1.  Malaya is an 11 swing.  The money’s in the orient.

    Well said, can’t afford to lose the transports and need to get India and China to turtle otherwise the unit exchange will slow Japan down. I would be delighted with a Pearl Harbor attack.


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