Aircraft carrier 2 hits rule clarification and subs



  • Having a problem in one of our games and something doesn’t seem right about this. Japanese player has 1 aircraft carrier with 2 fighter planes and 2 empty transports in SZ 56. Western Australia is controlled by Anzac with 1 tank and 1 infantry. Anzac turn 5 combat move 1 sub from SZ 62 —> SZ 56. Combat no destroyers present sub rolls and gets a hit, damaging carrier. Defending fighters do not roll and defending carrier misses. Attacking Anzac sub retreats from combat to SZ 61.

    Now this is the part that is mixing us up. We are under the impression that the planes that were on the Japanese carrier now have no legal landing zone because all territories adjacent to sz 56 are sea zones without axis carriers. Japanese fighters are destroyed as a result.

    The net outcome is one Anzac sub got one hit and wounded a Japanese carrier resulting in the destruction of the planes it was carrying.

    This seems too powerful. We are trying to find if planes can land on a damaged carrier, but that doesn’t seem to be the case, which means one sub can destroy a lone carriers planes.

    How do you defend against this. Even if a destroyer was present if the Anzac had gotten two sub hits then Japanese planes would go to the bottom of the pacific. Wounding carriers and then retreating to kill planes seems like a loophole. I know carriers are expensive so two hits seems fair so they can be repaired, but I think by the time I take a hit on a carrier I’m losing that battle anyways.


  • 2017 '16 '15

    pretty sure that’s how it works. I don’t think you can leave your ftrs on the carrier and not take part in the battle even though they can’t hit the sub. I may be wrong about that though.

    Others will probably chime in with a definitive answer.

    So you might want to lose a ftr instead of your last DD if US hits you and ANZAC has the chance to hit ya with a sub


  • 2019 2017 '16

    Yep, you’ve got to have some fodder with loaded carriers. If a DD was present you could lose that first and assume that you would score a hit.



  • @simon33:

    Yep, you’ve got to have some fodder with loaded carriers. If a DD was present you could lose that first and assume that you would score a hit.

    So it is true then that wounded carriers can never have planes land on them. That makes subs really good against carriers that are alone.


  • 2018 2017 '16

    So it is true then that wounded carriers can never have planes land on them. That makes subs really good against carriers that are alone.

    That’s correct. You can never have too many destroyers or subs in the water. If you had one destroyer with that carrier then the sub would have been running the other way to avoid the planes+destroyer.


  • 2018 2017

    This underscores the tactic of always sending a sub after a lone, loaded carrier when there is not a friendly airfield in that zone.  It is always worth the risk/cost of losing the sub. Damaging the carrier costs the defender two aircraft.


  • 2020 2018 2017

    The whole thing regards the benefits of the otherwise flawed submarine, as well as the vulnerability of the otherwise optimal carrier defense dynamic.

    It also implicates the “order of casualties” in AxA, you have to make very nuanced decisions in each round of combat, before you see how much damage you do.  It’s a subtle advantage of being the attacker–-the defender has to gauge how many carriers to keep, and surface ships to lose, based on what the Attacker has, without knowing what Attacker units will fight the subsequent turn (or whether further attacks will be made by Allied powers that follow in turn order)

    With Japan and USA especially, buying 1 DD per turn (in a more serious game, where you are not allowed to alter your buy after you begin combats) is a solid, conservative move, because after combat, you may realize that you are short the total number of destroyers you will need to 1) achieve your blocks the turn after this one 2) hunt those subs 3) cover each grand fleet with at least 1 if not 2-3 subs and destroyers, each fleet.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017

    @KGrimB:

    Having a problem in one of our games and something doesn’t seem right about this. Japanese player has 1 aircraft carrier with 2 fighter planes and 2 empty transports in SZ 56. Western Australia is controlled by Anzac with 1 tank and 1 infantry. Anzac turn 5 combat move 1 sub from SZ 62 -> SZ 56. Combat no destroyers present sub rolls and gets a hit, damaging carrier. Defending fighters do not roll and defending carrier misses. Attacking Anzac sub retreats from combat to SZ 61.

    It’s not particularly relevant to the question at hand, but in that situation I wouldn’t have retreated the Anzac sub but instead would have tried my luck again. If the sub hits again it will kill the more valuable carrier, which is a gain already even if the sub also dies. And on top of that, if the then carrier misses again, the transports are also dead.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Herr:

    It’s not particularly relevant to the question at hand, but in that situation I wouldn’t have retreated the Anzac sub but instead would have tried my luck again. If the sub hits again it will kill the more valuable carrier, which is a gain already even if the sub also dies. And on top of that, if the then carrier misses again, the transports are also dead.

    Absolutely !    If you have first strike with no return fire too. Id do it on any ship
                          with 2 transports or whatever with a no destroyer present.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @KGrimB:

    @simon33:

    Yep, you’ve got to have some fodder with loaded carriers. If a DD was present you could lose that first and assume that you would score a hit.

    So it is true then that wounded carriers can never have planes land on them. That makes subs really good against carriers that are alone.

    Yes.

    An important technicality to remember.  If you have a carrier that is carrying your an allies fighter on it, and you attack an enemy fleet tipping your carrier.  Your ally’s fighter cannot launch until the carrier has been repaired!



  • @KGrimB:

    Having a problem in one of our games and something doesn�t seem right about this. Japanese player has 1 aircraft carrier with 2 fighter planes and 2 empty transports in SZ 56. Western Australia is controlled by Anzac with 1 tank and 1 infantry. Anzac turn 5 combat move 1 sub from SZ 62 �> SZ 56. Combat no destroyers present sub rolls and gets a hit, damaging carrier. Defending fighters do not roll and defending carrier misses. Attacking Anzac sub retreats from combat to SZ 61.

    Now this is the part that is mixing us up. We are under the impression that the planes that were on the Japanese carrier now have no legal landing zone because all territories adjacent to sz 56 are sea zones without axis carriers. Japanese fighters are destroyed as a result.

    The net outcome is one Anzac sub got one hit and wounded a Japanese carrier resulting in the destruction of the planes it was carrying.

    This seems too powerful. We are trying to find if planes can land on a damaged carrier, but that doesn�t seem to be the case, which means one sub can destroy a lone carriers planes.

    How do you defend against this. Even if a destroyer was present if the Anzac had gotten two sub hits then Japanese planes would go to the bottom of the pacific. Wounding carriers and then retreating to kill planes seems like a loophole. I know carriers are expensive so two hits seems fair so they can be repaired, but I think by the time I take a hit on a carrier I�m losing that battle anyways.

    Yep the planes are considered defending in the air for the combat, and if carrier is damaged the planes are lost because they don’t have a safe landing space. The moral of the story is to screen your carriers w/dd’s. If the Japanese would have had a dd present then the planes could have hit the sub in defense (dd allows the planes to hit the sub). The dd takes the hit from the sub saving the carrier from damage and the planes from crashing into the sea. I also agree with the others that the Anz probably should have pressed the attack having a 50/50 chance to sink the carrier, and if the sub survives the transports are also lost.

    I would imagine that the Japanese got into this position because of a prior attack from the USA and lost part of their fleet (including some dd’s), and the Anz were playing clean-up. Either that or the Japanese player simply didn’t realize what he got himself into (seems like the Japanese may have done an ill advised amp of W Australia, and the Anz (or US) took it back leaving the Japanese w/o a landing space, and the fleet vulnerable).

    BTW the sub can’t retreat to sz61, it submerges in sz56.


  • 2019 2017 '16

    @WILD:

    BTW the sub can’t retreat to sz61, it submerges in sz56.

    Why not? It’s an attacking unit which can fire at a valid target. The attacker can retreat.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @simon33:

    @WILD:

    BTW the sub can’t retreat to sz61, it submerges in sz56.

    Why not? It’s an attacking unit which can fire at a valid target. The attacker can retreat.

    I’m with you on this Simon, the sub can Submerge in that zone - OR retreat

    -The only time the sub could not retreat, is if it came from a previously hostile sea zone
    -The only time the sub couldn’t submerge prior to it’s surprise strike is when the enemy has a destroyer present

    Submersible: A submarine has the option of submerging.
    It can do this anytime it would otherwise make a Surprise
    Strike. The decision is made before any dice are rolled
    by either side (the attacker decides first) and takes
    effect immediately. When a submarine submerges, it�s
    immediately removed from the battle strip and placed
    back on the map. As a result, it can no longer fire or take
    hits in that combat. However, a submarine can�t submerge
    if an enemy destroyer is present in the battle

    PG20. Europe 1940
    Condition B�Attacker Retreats
    The attacker (never the defender) can retreat during this
    step. Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat
    that are on the battle strip to a single adjacent friendly
    units moved. In the case of sea units, that space must
    have been friendly at the start of the turn. All such units
    must retreat together to the same territory or sea zone,
    regardless of where they came from.
    space from which at least 1 of the attacking land or sea



  • @KGrimB:

    How do you defend against this?.

    Do not repeat your mistake and have CV escorted at all time by CA and DD.

    CV are not powerful and need to be protected at all times. CV project power up to 3 sea zones, with their planes, but the carriers themselves are very vulnerable to counter attack. Make sure you protect your CV at all times.



  • Yea my bad, makes sense that the attacking sub would have the choice to submerge in the sz that the battle took place (no enemy dd present), or retreat 1 adjacent sz from where it came.


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