Keeping China Alive?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16

    Anyone know any practical strategies for keeping China alive for more than 2 turns? Even with a China-focused bid (e.g. add 1 infantry to each of 2 Chinese territories, plus a British sub near India) I find that Japan can still easily kill the Flying Tigers on turn 1 and kill off all but one remaining Chinese infantry on turn 2 without any serious distraction from other theaters. Feeding Russian infantry I to China doesn’t seem to help because they are too far from the Chinese front lines; by the time a Russian unit in China is combat effective, the Chinese army is all dead and China is only recruiting at best 1 infantry per turn, and so it’s not really worth saving. Thoughts? Suggestions?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Only way is adding a separate bid for China so you can at least add more inf to China’s  setup.
    Seems in my 40 41 games  there’s at least 9 inf in those 2 starting China territories on my map. Though the US fig is in Schezwan. To bad you don’t have at least 4-5 China territories on map. Just seems the AA50 game is not historical on 41 setup for China territories.

    You could add another fig to China setup with bid ? US was sending planes to China by end of 42.

    map1.JPG



  • My group has played many games, and I have found that the easiest way to keep China alive is to distract Japan with bigger and more interesting targets. J1 is unavoidable, however by placing your UK/Anzac units well on the fist turn, J2 becomes more interesting. You want Japan to focus on splitting their planes, and not concentrating them inland. It is difficult to do, however China is just a minor power that is difficult to keep breathing. They are just a filler, however if Japan does not focus on them right away they can become a menace.


  • 2017 '16

    One trick is to begin the game with China, then followed by Russia.

    It does not solve everything but allowing China to cut down Japan Infantry can help.
    Or, at least it provides a complete turn of deployment.



  • That is a pretty big fundamental change. I’ve heard of people changing the turn order, however it changes alot about how the gae develops.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Requester45:

    That is a pretty big fundamental change. I’ve heard of people changing the turn order, however it changes alot about how the gae develops.

    That is a good thing once the game gets boring with the same moves all the time.
    Setup the pacific and play test it a few turns.  😉



  • There’s a much simpler answer to China… instead of changing turn order and everything else… just allow the Chinese player to place the Flying Tigers where he wants on initial deployment, and my guess is they won’t be where they will be destroyed on turn-1 every single time Japan nukes them before the Chinese have a chance to use them once. Having access to the Flying Tigers for both offense and selective defense is critical to China, and almost never ever happens, because Japan ALWAYS kills them on turn-1 before China even moves once. This one minor change on setup changes the entire dynamic in China without people having to change turn-order or use selective bids.



  • IMO I would rather Japan attack my Chinese forces all on J1 anyway because I’ll be able to get rid of some of those damned planes.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @Nowhere:

    There’s a much simpler answer to China… instead of changing turn order and everything else… just allow the Chinese player to place the Flying Tigers where he wants on initial deployment, and my guess is they won’t be where they will be destroyed on turn-1 every single time Japan nukes them before the Chinese have a chance to use them once. Having access to the Flying Tigers for both offense and selective defense is critical to China, and almost never ever happens, because Japan ALWAYS kills them on turn-1 before China even moves once. This one minor change on setup changes the entire dynamic in China without people having to change turn-order or use selective bids.

    Have you play tested this yet ?



  • The single fighter plane only plays an important role in smaller battles anyway. If the Japanese player wants to take it out J1 and possibly lose some planes, then i’m all for it.



  • @SS:

    @Nowhere:

    There’s a much simpler answer to China… instead of changing turn order and everything else… just allow the Chinese player to place the Flying Tigers where he wants on initial deployment, and my guess is they won’t be where they will be destroyed on turn-1 every single time Japan nukes them before the Chinese have a chance to use them once. Having access to the Flying Tigers for both offense and selective defense is critical to China, and almost never ever happens, because Japan ALWAYS kills them on turn-1 before China even moves once. This one minor change on setup changes the entire dynamic in China without people having to change turn-order or use selective bids.

    Have you play tested this yet ?

    The ability to move the flying tigers before the game starts is an integral part of our Chicago Rules, so we’ve game play tested this allot.  This really helps keep China alive.



  • @Argothair:

    Anyone know any practical strategies for keeping China alive for more than 2 turns? ……by the time a Russian unit in China is combat effective, the Chinese army is all dead and China is only recruiting at best 1 infantry per turn, and so it’s not really worth saving. Thoughts? Suggestions?

    exactly.  Roll well on defense, that’s their best hope… take many Japanese infantry with you as you die.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Ya I knew you would have play tested. Was hopin you’d chime in.



  • I tested this many times with my FtF group and it’s not enough. You need add some infs or alter the rules (using AAG40 rules or such) to keep China viable and the game balanced

    The sad reality is that the setup is utterly unbalanced because of, mainly, China (and also a bit because that German IC at Karelia)



  • @SS:

    @Nowhere:

    There’s a much simpler answer to China… instead of changing turn order and everything else… just allow the Chinese player to place the Flying Tigers where he wants on initial deployment, and my guess is they won’t be where they will be destroyed on turn-1 every single time Japan nukes them before the Chinese have a chance to use them once. Having access to the Flying Tigers for both offense and selective defense is critical to China, and almost never ever happens, because Japan ALWAYS kills them on turn-1 before China even moves once. This one minor change on setup changes the entire dynamic in China without people having to change turn-order or use selective bids.

    Have you play tested this yet ?

    Yes, standard practice on this end. The Chinese player can place the Flying Tigers anywhere he wants in China before the game begins… oddly enough, it’s never placed right next to the Japanese player… while it may not completely fix the play balance of the entire game, it does do several positive things without any noticed negatives on our playtesting.

    Generally speaking, the Flying Tigers are rarely eliminated before the Chinese player ever gets to use them… if they are, it usually involves a much higher cost for the Japanese player (which then usually means it’s not worth it to the Japanese player on turn-1). It ends up giving the Chinese player some needed flexibility on attack and defense, otherwise lost when the Chinese player usually loses the Flying Tigers on turn-1 with OOB setup. It doesn’t automatically save China, it doesn’t make China invincible… but it does make them a tad more challenging to the Japanese player, and a tad more fun to play as the Chinese player.

    I really see only upside, no downside to this very slight tweek to the OOB setup.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    Give China 2 Flying Tigers at start of game. All you have to do is play test it by yourself 2-3 turns for Japan and China and see how it goes.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I don’t think you can in this scenario, without an Allied bid. Japan is far too strong and only gets stronger as the game goes on.
    Russia is the only hope amd , if Germany gets its G1 right, then Russia should be looking West, not  East. It can send two , maybe three,  units to bolster China. No more.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13

    @SS:

    Give China 2 Flying Tigers at start of game. All you have to do is play test it by yourself 2-3 turns for Japan and China and see how it goes.

    Wittman

    You referring to my post or the Chicago Rules post or both of us ?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Hi SS.
    I was addressing the OP’s question.
    I do not think  China can’t be saved.



  • In 1941 we let China move with the Soviet Union instead of USA, BEFORE JAPAN that is. They collect IPC like anyone (7 IPC start) and thus can save money from turn to turn. It is a major boost to China, intended, and lets the USSR play the Chinese.

    We also gave the Soviets an AA i Buyratia SSR on the Manchuria border- that makes it harder to attack for Japan (but no offensive power to the Russians).



  • We’ve taken to adding 1 extra infnatry in Yunan province. Japan can still smoke the flying tiger but it requires trading initiative elsewhere by bringing at least 2 fighters to the battle. The OOB build makes the J1 demise of Yunan a formality.

    I’m interested in trying out the variant (mentioned in a previous post) where the US can move the fighter to another province at setup.


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