Taranto without CV?



  • Has anyone tried doing a Taranto Raid without using the CV? This probably requires a bid, perhaps a sub and a fighter at least. You do a normal Taranto, except you leave the British carrier in SZ98, hoping to lose the 1-2 fighters you bring from London as casualties. If this works out, you can withdraw the carrier into the Indian Ocean and combine it with the Indian and South African ships to have a decent fleet that can play in the Med, instead of the carrier being killed by the Axis.



  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    Has anyone tried doing a Taranto Raid without using the CV? This probably requires a bid, perhaps a sub and a fighter at least. You do a normal Taranto, except you leave the British carrier in SZ98, hoping to lose the 1-2 fighters you bring from London as casualties. If this works out, you can withdraw the carrier into the Indian Ocean and combine it with the Indian and South African ships to have a decent fleet that can play in the Med, instead of the carrier being killed by the Axis.

    Depends if germany neglects to put the fighter on south france he only has 2 scrambles.
    So 2 fights + BB + cruiser vs 3 figs 1 tactical 1 bomber 1 cruiser 1 destroyer is a pretty good deal.
    Just make sure you lose 2 figs first so your carrier does not have to move there non com.
    You could even keep the cruiser + destroyer out of it but that is a bit risky.


  • 2016 2015 '10

    Without the ac, no fighters could make it to Taranto from UK/Scotland (I generally always bring 2).  So UK would have to bid at least 3 units in range of Taranto to make it work.

    I wouldn’t consider it because I want to occupy 97 (I take the bomber and/or the tactical as 97 casualty) and convoy the sea zone, provoking a counter on I1 or G2.  The extra sub is helpful in this regard because it helps make an Italy 1 counter a high-risk gamble.



  • @Zhukov44:

    Without the ac, no fighters could make it to Taranto from UK/Scotland (I generally always bring 2).  So UK would have to bid at least 3 units in range of Taranto to make it work.

    I wouldn’t consider it because I want to occupy 97 (I take the bomber and/or the tactical as 97 casualty) and convoy the sea zone, provoking a counter on I1 or G2.  The extra sub is helpful in this regard because it helps make an Italy 1 counter a high-risk gamble.

    Your air can get there as long as the carrier is there in non com, but if you happen to lose the fighters from scotland-london then the carrier does not have to move there at all.


  • 2018 2017

    Yes, what you are describing I call “Taranto Lite”

    Lets assume there will always be 3 fighters at this airbase since its standard play.  Also that you don’t have to bring up the carrier so that we have to lose any of the “zero” move fighters first.

    Taranto is unfortunate because most battles you are going to end up with 2 fig 1 CV that gets destroyed during the retal.  So you could bring up to 3 fighters, 2 is more logical.    Italy counterattacks, the most likely post-Taranto configuration is;

    Italy 1 cruiser, 1 tt remains
    UK all ships dead, 1 fig 1 sb 1 tac 2 infantry on Syria

    With only 6 hits and 5 defenders even during a scramble, 8 attackers of any kind should be enough.

    However, if you don’t bring the carrier, Italy will be much more likely to scramble.  The carrier hits are soak-hits (no loss of attack power).  Its necessary to ensure they don’t scramble out

    1)  bid of 6  ==  buy 1 sub and come in 2 (3) fighters 1 CV 1 DD 1 CA 1 SB 1 tac 1 sub
    2) bid of 0 == do it the normal way
    3) bid of 12 or higher =  buy 2 subs, leave the carrier behind and have it become the nucleus of a new fleet.

    I’ve looked at this over and over, and even with the 1 sub bid, keeping the CV back isn’t a good move.  if you get 2 subs, then its an awesome move.


  • 2017

    Bid of a sub and fighter on malta (or tac. bomber if you get a 17 bid), you could do it without the carrier. As Italy, I’m probably going to scramble and hope I win the 25-35% odds battle. (I’m writing this with the generally accepted bid rule on triplea live of 1 unit per territory or sea zone that already has a unit in it).

    The only thing is, the fighters coming from the UK have to be taken as casualties. Depending on the order of casualties and dice, this could effect your chances of winning and or still result in having to bring the carrier to sz97 for a legal landing spot.


  • 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    you could bid a carrier in 98


  • 2019 2017 2016

    I’ve tried it before I started playing balanced mod but even if it works out, it has a minimal effect on later game play.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    I always being in the Carrier, for the two hit soak.
    If you want to save the Carrier to use elsewhere, don’t do Taranto… I done think it is worth the risk.



  • In a game w/o bid hitting the Italian BB is pretty risky w/o the carrier. With axis scrambling 3 planes the odds go from about 95% down to around 75% (give or take depending on if the Germans flew in a ftr or tac to scramble).

    With the carrier in play the axis probably don’t scramble, but if they do axis should lose some air power which as the UK I’m ok with. If they don’t scramble then I may be able to take out the Italian fleet in one round that will allow some of my ships to survive in 97 (maybe I choose to keep carrier?). The Italians will be hard pressed to clear out both 97 and 93 so they probably don’t get their Med no. Yea I know that the Germans can take out this rag tag fleet on G2, but it will cost them some air.

    If you do Taranto w/o carrier (no bid) then you are encouraging the axis to scramble IMO. They have a good shot at mutual annihilation or if the dice gods are slightly on their side the Italian BB may survive. So yep you saved the UK carrier, but is it worth the risk of losing most (or all) RAF and possibly leaving the damaged Italian BB.

    IDK though maybe your long term master plan is to get the Euro axis to engage their air forces to win a game of air attrition. Germany/Italy losing air units early on can make for a difficult game on the axis side.



  • Well since you have to take odds a 75% odds is pretty decent though.

    75% chance of killing not only the fleet but also the italian air and 1 german plane is pretty good i almost want the axis to scramble that fight.
    Might be a good reason to keep the carrier out of the battle, intice them to scramble and lose even more air and fleet.

    Sure your odds of winning are lower but not that bad. 75% chance of winning,  5% change of the transport suriving and 20% of the BB surviving.
    Still crappy odds for the italians to scramble on.

    If germany does 110 without the BB but with 1 sub 3 figs 3 tacticals 1 bomber they also got 80% of winning if the UK scrambles. Would you take the 20% odds as allies? Why would the axis take 20% odds and be considered smart.


  • 2016 2015 '10

    @ShadowHAwk:

    Well since you have to take odds a 75% odds is pretty decent though.

    The 25% when you lose is more devastating, cumulatively, than the 75% when you win.  In the 75% when Allies win, Axis usually does well enough that Italy can easily mop up in 97 and avoid getting convoyed.  The tuv loss to Axis can be small to none when we take the counter into account, although a successful 97 attack constrains Italy strategically.  But in the 25% when Allies lose, that’s a devastating defeat for Allies and hard to recover from.

    It’s hard for Allies to bring enough material that there isn’t a good argument for an Axis scramble.  Still, if you bring 8-9 units (including the ac) then that might be scary enough that Axis won’t want to take the risk and prefer to wait till G2 for a (comparatively) low-risk counter.

    If germany does 110 without the BB but with 1 sub 3 figs 3 tacticals 1 bomber they also got 80% of winning if the UK scrambles. Would you take the 20% odds as allies? Why would the axis take 20% odds and be considered smart.

    Mostly yes, because the tuv exchange would be more favorable to Allies.  But in some cases UK might need to hold back (especially if 111 is a better scramble option).   There’s more upside to the 97 scramble with those odds because Axis wants to prevent the Allied convoy.


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