• If Russia has U.K. Fighters in Moscow, can the U.K. Fighters act as defenders/intercepters in the strat bombing run? It’s an attack against a Russian factory, not an attack on the territory. Thanks!

    Moderator’s edit: Added tag [House Rules] to title


  • Yes, your allies may send there fighters up to protect your factories during bombing raids in the same way they can send their aircraft to defend your seazones.


  • All defending fighters based in a territory. Nationality not important.
    To fast 4 me caesar


  • I only know about this rule because I am stuck in a game where Germany is working over London and I am begging US to send over fighters.


  • Thank you. I just figured it that since it was not an attack against a territory that regular combat rules wouldn’t apply. Strat bombing runs are separate aspects of the battle, so I was thinking that only russian planes should be allowed to attack, when russian factory is bombed. Not the way it was in the war so no problem, just figured it was a multinational force getting to attack my planes during the intercept phase, vs them defending. Feel more like my fighters are defending my bomber, and russia and uk get to attack my fighters/bomber is unfair. Could be looked at that the interceptors are defenders, but they’re really sent up to attack. Escorts are not sent to attack, they’re sent to defend.

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    Who is the attacker and defender during a SBR doesn’t have any implications unless there is first striking (in 42.2 rules, incoming bombers shoot down potential “defending” interceptors first striking–but not in G40BM or G40).

    Regarding balance, the BM rules are too pro-defender (the guy being bombed) in my opinion, they shut down the endless German on Russia raids and reduce the effectiveness of Dark Skies quite a bit.  The German player has to adapt by bringing escorts and tacticals, reducing his ability to split up and deploy striking power across the map.

    The OOB rules are too in favor of the attacker, because you can’t really deter a raid with less than 3-4 fighters, and the risks are pretty even to both sides in TUV even though Germany is 2:1 power and money over Russia.

  • '19 '17 '16

    @taamvan:

    Regarding balance, the BM rules are too pro-defender

    Really, so would you suggest rolling a 3 on a 12 sided dice or something? I think they’re about as good as you could ask.

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    I wish I could offer a 3rd route, as the interception rules/AAA have changed many times.  Baron and YG and others took a look at the dynamics and I just don’t know how to make the combat more dynamic with d6.  Your suggestion is a middle ground, but it departs from d6.

    BM = I only want to raid when I can bring tacs and fighters. This is hard to do as the fighters are staged in the wrong place most turns, so SBR is reduced quite a bit.    Stopping SBR still takes fighter stacking but not the ## of them.
    OOB = I want to raid all the time unescorted, unless 2 bombers are going up against say 3-4 fighters by themselves, so SBR is an awesome strategy USA v Japan or GER vs USSR.

    It may be more that im used to Germany having a free reign and I don’t like it being nerfed.  The other players in my group were split 2v2 on whether BM or OOB should be our house rule.


  • Honestly, I believe the AA guns you can buy should just be used as a standard AA gun (as they can defend the zone and stop bombing raids) and then you can remove the AA gun built into the dock/runway/factory. That will put more use in AA guns.


  • What are the BM rules?

  • '17 '16

    Balanced Mode rules.
    Not related to me.
    🙂

    A long time ago, I said the same about BM SBR.
    Was too much a swing toward defender.
    Even 1942.2 SBR is better, if StB gets first strike.
    And much better if Fg is keeping A2 D2, because for 4 StBs, 5 Fgs are needed to reach break even point (0.81 ratio, exactly).

    OOB break even point for damage is near 1 StB for 2 Fgs. (0.53 ratio, exactly)
    BM break even point is more like 6 StBs vs 5 Fgs. (1.16 ratio, exactly)
    1942.2 style with D6+2 dmg is near 1 StB vs 1 Fg (0.95 ratio, exactly)

    I suggested to make TcB A2 like Fighter to swing slightly toward attacker.
    So, StB remains A1 and TcB A2 but Fg A2 D2.
    Only Fighter can intercept per OOB rules.

    So, TcB and Fg will be used as fodder during dogfight while StB continue toward IC.
    At least, in that case TcBs will still fall like flies.
    (As it happened over England.)


  • What are the BM Interceptor rules?

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    Incoming; Bombers.  Tacticals. Call targets.  Fighter Escorts.

    BM:  Defenders intercept all 3 Allies come up or not any #

    Roll.  Like 1 round combat.  Bombers tacs get 1s.  Fighters on both teams get 2s (1s in OOB).  Take casualties per normal rules; loser chooses.

    Then, roll AAA, but not against any surviving fighters.

    As far as I read the rules, each base fires at its individual incoming bombers separately so you cannot simply lose the fighters or tacs before the bombers.

    Then bombers bomb.

    HTH

  • '19 '17 '16

    @taamvan:

    I wish I could offer a 3rd route, as the interception rules/AAA have changed many times.   Baron and YG and others took a look at the dynamics and I just don’t know how to make the combat more dynamic with d6.  Your suggestion is a middle ground, but it departs from d6.

    BM = I only want to raid when I can bring tacs and fighters. This is hard to do as the fighters are staged in the wrong place most turns, so SBR is reduced quite a bit.    Stopping SBR still takes fighter stacking but not the ## of them.
    OOB = I want to raid all the time unescorted, unless 2 bombers are going up against say 3-4 fighters by themselves, so SBR is an awesome strategy USA v Japan or GER vs USSR.

    It may be more that im used to Germany having a free reign and I don’t like it being nerfed.  The other players in my group were split 2v2 on whether BM or OOB should be our house rule.

    What I’m getting out of reading your post is that you agree that it is broken OOB but like how it is broken? I think it is pretty silly that it still has positive value for the attacker to send 3 bombers and 3 escorts against a major IC with 9 interceptors. Expected value is around +2.5IPC.

    BTW, OOB if you send one unescorted bomber against a major IC with 2 fighters, it has a -0.26IPC expected value for the attacker. assuming all damage would be fixed. Close enough to a wash. Note that you can’t double the numbers of planes and double the expected value here, because of the possible of the defender rolling snake eyes with their interceptors.

    Incoming; Bombers.  Tacticals. Call targets.  Fighter Escorts.

    Note that you only have to call the targets after the air battle but before the AA Guns fire.

  • '17 '16

    Note that you can’t double the numbers of planes and double the expected value here, because of the possible of the defender rolling snake eyes with their interceptors.

    What do you mean, here?

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    Its not broken, unless you think there is no way Russia can stop the combination of relentless bombing and can-opening without a substantial bid.    Even after many games, I’m not certain that this dynamic is unstoppable, especially as KJF has become more focused in our group, its Japan, not Russia that is about to get torn apart first (and this also because of J1-J2 almost every game).

    Baron and I chatted about it more, giving Tacs a 2 for rear-gunners or bombers no attack and d6+3 damage came up.

    Maybe its more that I need to adapt to BM and see if I think Dark Skies etc. will be reliable.  The game is changed enough by BM that its not a simple question of reapplying OOB strategies and gambits.    We aren’t playing with the full BM set, just BM interception, since we couldn’t gain a consensus, marines are done differently than I prefer, Vichy seems extraneous…etc…

  • '19 '17 '16

    @Baron:

    Note that you can’t double the numbers of planes and double the expected value here, because of the possible of the defender rolling snake eyes with their interceptors.

    What do you mean, here?

    Tried to explain it.

    Just because the expected value of 1 bomber on two interceptors is -0.26, it doesn’t mean that two bombers on four interceptors is -0.52. The latter is actually less because there is a lesser chance of a lost defensive hit. This effect is slight BTW.


  • @simon33:

    @taamvan:

    I wish I could offer a 3rd route, as the interception rules/AAA have changed many times.   Baron and YG and others took a look at the dynamics and I just don’t know how to make the combat more dynamic with d6.  Your suggestion is a middle ground, but it departs from d6.

    BM = I only want to raid when I can bring tacs and fighters. This is hard to do as the fighters are staged in the wrong place most turns, so SBR is reduced quite a bit.    Stopping SBR still takes fighter stacking but not the ## of them.
    OOB = I want to raid all the time unescorted, unless 2 bombers are going up against say 3-4 fighters by themselves, so SBR is an awesome strategy USA v Japan or GER vs USSR.

    It may be more that im used to Germany having a free reign and I don’t like it being nerfed.  The other players in my group were split 2v2 on whether BM or OOB should be our house rule.

    What I’m getting out of reading your post is that you agree that it is broken OOB but like how it is broken? I think it is pretty silly that it still has positive value for the attacker to send 3 bombers and 3 escorts against a major IC with 9 interceptors. Expected value is around +2.5IPC.

    BTW, OOB if you send one unescorted bomber against a major IC with 2 fighters, it has a -0.26IPC expected value for the attacker. assuming all damage would be fixed. Close enough to a wash. Note that you can’t double the numbers of planes and double the expected value here, because of the possible of the defender rolling snake eyes with their interceptors.

    Incoming; Bombers.  Tacticals. Call targets.  Fighter Escorts.

    Note that you only have to call the targets after the air battle but before the AA Guns fire.

    3 bombers + 3 intercepters vs 9 intercepters would mean you lose 1.5 intercepter and half a bomber vs his 1 intercepter.
    Not sure how that can be positive, ofcourse if you even calculate the odds completely you will lose quite a lot more as attacker.
    Effectively you get 12 shots against you @1 where 3shots are against bombers. you only get 6 shots and the bombing damage.

  • '19 '17 '16

    You lose an average of 5IPC in the air raid but do an average of 7.5IPC in the bombing raid. It’s obvious isn’t it?

  • 2021 2020 '18 '17

    That calculation seems pretty clear, well said.

    I’d add in making decisions regarding the SBR can’t be reduced to a pure odds/trade off calculus because

    the planes can only do 1 thing each turn so its an either/or–do this OR destroy TUV in a positive (hopefully) positional way in battle
    the enemy doesn’t have to repair damage in this version so there is an element of choice that the attacker doesn’t control
    they have to land and be pre-positioned in certain places so the theoretically optimal combinations don’t always exist in actual play and SBR has more complex ramifications if it wastes bombers or postions them away from critical attacks later

    which is sorta different than Classic or other games where it just stole your money

  • '19 '17 '16

    I suppose if you want to find some middle ground between G40.2 and BM, you could give the bombers a first strike like in 1942.2 but also have the fighters A2 D2 but without first strike attacks.

    Seems a bit unnecessarily complicated and fixes something which is not broken to my way of thinking. The BM rules are the ones which aren’t broken. Another possibility is to remove or reduce the first strike of the AA gun.

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