Benefit of a sneaky ANZAC DOW



  • Hello together, most of us know about “The Sneaky Karl”. UK player moves a destroyer into the seazone, where the Japanese transports are during its “Noncombat Move”, ANZAC declares war during its turn, leading to a simultaneous declaration of war of UK. Next round Japan cannot load its transports for a “Combat Move” at that SZ, because it is now hostile.

    But what are the real advantages of the ANZAC DOW and what are the disadvantages?
    Let us assume, UK moves its destroyer as above mentioned, but ANZAC does not DOW on Japan. What does it change? Japan still cannot use its transports for “Combat Move” to attack UK territories like Borneo. Reason being, Japan needs to do a DOW first and then the SZ is hostile. So where is the difference?

    with ANZAC DOW:
    Allies benefits:

    • ANZAC gets additional 5-10 IPC on National Objectives for being at war
    • Japan cannot load its transports at that SZ during “Combat Move” at all

    Axis benefits:

    • Japan gets 10 IPC on National Objectives if they do not DOW on USA
    • USA is not able to attack or move to e.g. Brazil if Japan does not DOW on USA

    without ANZAC DOW:
    Allies benefits:

    • Japan cannot load its transports at that SZ during “Combat Move” to attack UK, ANZAC or Dutch territories.
    • If Japan still DOW, USA is able to attack on US3 and move to Brazil

    Axis benefits:

    • Japan gets either 10 IPC on National Objectives if they do not DOW on USA or
    • Japan can DOW on USA and France and use the transports to e.g. attack Philippines.

    Did I miss anything?
    For sure!  😉



  • There’s an exception to the rule that allows the Japanese to load transports in a sea zone that was just made hostile by a DOW by Japan that turn.


  • 2017

    I like to think of the reason for the exception to the rule is that Japan can begin it’s combat turn, load it’s transports (which isn’t technically moving any pieces about the board), then decide, oh, let’s Declare War now. But in any event it’s an exception to the rule that I think is fair.

    Page 12 of the Europe 1940 2nd Edition Rule Book

    "Declaring War
    …War must be declared on your turn at the beginning of the Combat Move phase, before any combat movements are made, unless otherwise specified in the political rules…Once a state of war is entered into, all territories and sea zones controlled by or containing units belonging to the power or powers on which you declared war instantly become hostile to your units, and the normal restrictions of moving into or through hostile spaces apply, with one exception. During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a state of war, your transports that are already in sea zones that have just become hostile may be loaded in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war is declared,
    while the sea zone is still friendly."


  • 2018 2017 2016

    The advantage in doing it is in the timing. When Japan has enough transports and ground troops to do the Calcutta Crush, or take the Money Islands, then you move the British boat into the Japanese navy and DOW. Now Japan has to wait an extra turn to load his transports and you have an extra turn to prepare a defence.

    As Ichabod correctly posted, Japan can only load it’s transports if THEY declared war first, not after ANZAC or the UK did.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    I respectfully request that this move be called “The Sneaky Karl” per General Hand Grenade’s video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrci2fttNvc&t=58s

    :lol:


  • 2018 2017 2016

    I believe that the name has already stuck, Karl. During the Grasshopper Invitational I was called to another table to certify that the “Sneaky Karl” was indeed a legal move. Needless to say the injured party wanted  to know WTF was Karl?


  • 2018 2017

    Just leave the units on the transports between turns, they’re safe and also, no load.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    @GeneralHandGrenade:

    I believe that the name has already stuck, Karl. During the Grasshopper Invitational I was called to another table to certify that the “Sneaky Karl” was indeed a legal move. Needless to say the injured party wanted  to know WTF was Karl?

    NICE!

    :mrgreen:


  • 2018 2017 2016

    I changed the name of the video for you Karl.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    This is a good trick of the trade for the allies. It’s imperative to slow down Japan by all means.


  • 2017 2016 2015 '14 '12

    The advantage is for the axis; if the the axis player knows about this move and the unload the transports then you can assume they want you to do this because they want USA out of the war another turn.  SNEAKY KARL is a fun move to do though.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @variance:

    The advantage is for the axis; if the the axis player knows about this move and the unload the transports then you can assume they want you to do this because they want USA out of the war another turn.  SNEAKY KARL is a fun move to do though.

    Perhaps, but if they load the transports then you can wait to declare war, stack Yunnan and keep it / block sea zones to India (if there is a naval base serving SZ 36).



  • As Karl pointed it out, it does great to stop a snap attack against the Dutch. The only other situation I can see it being really useful is to stop Japan from attacking Hong Kong or French Indo China by sea however with Siam boarding FIC, that most likely will not happen as I have yet to see Japan pull out of Siam while at peace.



  • @Karl7:

    I respectfully request that this move be called “The Sneaky Karl”

    Beg for pardon and of course honor to whom honor is due!

    @Ichabod:

    Page 12 of the Europe 1940 2nd Edition Rule Book

    😞
    Damn it, I did not read the blue box with the white letters attentively enough.
    In that case my thoughts are obsolete and there is no alternative to “The Sneaky Karl” if you want to stop Japan from using its transports for one round.


  • 2018 2017

    You can simply block them from doing so the old fashioned way, with screens (SZ 37, SZ 43, SZ 44).  They can move past you at any time, except when they declare war–then they can destroy your blocks during Combat but they can’t combat past them to Amphib.  Only downside to all that is you only get 5 (6, if you count the very movement restricted US DD) ships to accomplish this that you’d probably rather save.

    If Japan intended to stay at peace, then it passes right through you as a bizarre “Armed Imperial Neutral”  (ie Japan can hang out in SZ 26 or SZ 39 at peace) so then you can’t block them anyways.



  • Imho such a blocking is not so effective. Japan could sink all those blockers and still do Amphibious Assaults on Malaya, Borneo and Celebes.

    BTW: Japan cannot hang out in SZ 26, because this SZ is within 2 sea zones of the United States´ mainland (Pacific Rulebook page 8, Political Situation, Japan). But I agree, Japan could passively hang out in SZ 42 and do Amphibious Assaults on all money islands the round after.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    Oh boy, you had to bring that one up again. We had a lengthy debate over that one. In the end it was proven (and certified) that you could indeed park your Japanese fleet in SZ 26.
    Goofy=Yes
    Illegal=No

    It’s no longer up for debate. That one is settled.


  • 2019 2017 2016

    @GeneralHandGrenade:

    Oh boy, you had to bring that one up again. We had a lengthy debate over that one. In the end it was proven (and certified) that you could indeed park your Japanese fleet in SZ 26.
    Goofy=Yes
    Illegal=No

    It’s no longer up for debate. That one is settled.

    Do you have a link for that one? I thought that you couldn’t.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    @simon33:

    @GeneralHandGrenade:


    It’s no longer up for debate. That one is settled.

    Do you have a link for that one? I thought that you couldn’t.

    The last time (as I remember) this issue has been discussed:

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28562.msg1592596#msg1592596


  • 2018 2017 2016

    No I was referring to this little gem;
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=39672.0

    My ANZAC hover-tanks are painted up and ready to fly. :roll:


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    Right, that one is newer!



  • I am curious to see if the Sneaky Karl could be done against the Allies. Maybe somehow taking advantage of US ability to declare war on all three at once?



  • @GeneralHandGrenade:

    Oh boy, you had to bring that one up again. We had a lengthy debate over that one. In the end it was proven (and certified) that you could indeed park your Japanese fleet in SZ 26.
    Goofy=Yes
    Illegal=No

    It’s no longer up for debate. That one is settled.

    Hi GHG, sorry for starting this and I accept the forums statement of beeing legal.
    (Sidenote, at the same moment we established a house rule that says, the Japanese cannot do that on our table!  :-P)



  • @Caesar:

    I am curious to see if the Sneaky Karl could be done against the Allies. Maybe somehow taking advantage of US ability to declare war on all three at once?

    Nop cant, it only works because a DOW of anzac automaticaly is a DOW of UK-Pac.
    Basicaly UP-PAC is declaring war after their turn unlike any other power that has to declare before their combat moves.

    This is the only combination of countries that have a rule like this every other country can be declared on independent and also declares war independent of the others.

    US is not at war with italy if germany declares war, or japan does. It can declare war but then it can still load because it is in the turn they declare war.


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