Does anyone else feel that the whole Air War could be improved?



  • … or is it just something nobody really wants to change.



  • I like it as it is.


  • 2017

    Im with munck.
    However there are a few tweeks I have considered for a new interceptor. Not tested yet.

    The 1 round fighter air superiority is excellent. We tried it for more rounds once and only once, it was very expensive. And every one only bought fighters. If you change that you need to make air cheaper to buy. Possibly lower attack/defense value also. Or there will be fighters on CAP every where, making them cheaper or same cost as destroyers with more movement. This would eliminate most naval builds in our group by Cost vs ability. We consider this a game breaking change and decided to never try it again! All units would need a cost change resulting in an entirely different game.

    Also like the 1 round interception combat, it simulates the difficulty of intercepting a planed hit and run bombing raid.

    Currently the cost and values of all aircraft work very well. If you change one thing other things are affected in a chain reaction to maintain balance of purchase and prevent Over-Powered units.

    If I was to required to change something, I may try to incorporate a new unit like fighter-interceptor as example. That is designed only to attack air units and try that out.  Giving it a token A/D @1 versus ground or naval and increase its interception value to 5.
    A6(5)/D6(5)/M4/C10 ground/naval attacks @1. Just a specialized interceptor, similar to AA but limited enough not to replace existing units.

    Or simply do as tac bomber already is and give fighters target select @ 1-3 on air units and eliminate the air superiority round completely. This one appeals to me most with its simplicity.



  • An intercepted is defending against bombers or fighter escorts. So you could give the interceptor only a defensive value.  The Me-163 is an example of this.

    http://www.historicalboardgaming.com/Me-163-Komet-Set-3d-Printed_p_1992.html


  • 2017

    @Andy6049:

    An intercepted is defending against bombers or fighter escorts. So you could give the interceptor only a defensive value.  The Me-163 is an example of this.

    http://www.historicalboardgaming.com/Me-163-Komet-Set-3d-Printed_p_1992.html

    True.
    My mistake. The  previous posted values would need to either be changed or allow this aircraft to escort also.
    Good catch.



  • An interceptor that can escort?  Sounds like that type of role would be for a high performance/multipurpose fighter.  What kind of aircraft were you thinking of?  You could possibly use some different molds from HBG. Amerika also has some different aircraft that could work as interceptor or a multipurpose. The Japs have a cool interceptor plane in there.  Just an idea if you want to introduce new aircraft types.


  • 2017

    @Andy6049:

    An interceptor that can escort?  Sounds like that type of role would be for a high performance/multipurpose fighter.  What kind of aircraft were you thinking of?  You could possibly use some different molds from HBG. Amerika also has some different aircraft that could work as interceptor or a multipurpose. The Japs have a cool interceptor plane in there.  Just an idea if you want to introduce new aircraft types.

    Yeah that sounds just like the jet fighter unlocked by tech. Consider an escorting interceptor that gets unlocked at stage 2 on tech tree, give it  higher intercept escort values.

    I was looking at a way that new units needed to be unlocked with technology rolls. Either stage 1,2,3… tank destroyers, amphibious marine tanks etc. Why not add this in too.



  • Hey guys.  I haven’t posted anything significant in a long while.  It reminds me that I’ve been on this forum since 2012.  I figured I’d post this to show that I still read this forum and that I’m still actively part of the A&A community to a certain degree.  I digress.

    Anyway, Jinx and I, along with another person who’s usual screen name is The Tyrant (not meaning another person who might have that same name on this forum) are part of the same group that Jinx refers to from time to time.  I’ll speak on behalf of our group and mention that we’re just not satisfied with the current way aircraft units operate.  Their mechanics, operations and purpose simply do not reflect what they were in reality.  This leads to wonky game mechanics and several house rules in many different forum threads that simply band-aid the rules.  We’ve decided to overhaul the whole thing.  These rules are not for the light-hearted.  I will note though that it seems easier in practice than in writing, like most things you learn to do in life.  These aircraft mechanics are part of the mod that Jinx posted in another thread, but in the most amount of detail that I could put them in.  Jinx did pretty much all the leg work for drafting up those mod documents (sorry man, we’ll make it up to you haha), but we contributed several ideas and refinements and continue to do so.  This project of ours is still very much a work in progress.

    In this post, I’ll upload the Word document that I made.  I’ll post it here with no colour coding, but I think it’ll be harder to interpret and read.  I’m open to suggestions and questions for clarification.  Constructive criticism and suggestions for change are welcome too.  I hope to see some feedback.

    Turn Order.doc



  • Turn Order

    Production and Research Phase:

    • (production is as explained in the GW36 rule manual).

    • (research is as explained on the National Reference Sheet).


    Combat Movement Phase:

    • 1. Air Combat Movement Rounds:

      • 1.1 Flying to the destination:

        • 1.1.1 The attacker declares which territories or sea zones the aircraft is/are going through.

        • 1.1.2 Defending Combat Air Patrol fighters in sea zones may intercept at 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology.  Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3
          once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units.  Casualties are removed immediately and
          combat ceases after one round.

        • 1.1.2 Defending fighters on airbases and/or aircraft carriers (both with the RADAR technology) may scramble to intercept and roll 1D12@3 once each or @4 once each with Jet
          Technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all attacking bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus
          defending aircraft units.  Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one interception round.

        • 1.1.3 Defending anti-aircraft guns may fire once (1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with RADAR technology) at aircraft units flying over the territory.  Attacking/escorting fighters
          and all attacking bomber aircraft types may not fire back.  Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one round.

        • 1.2 Arriving at the destination:

          • 1.2.1 Defending anti-aircraft guns may fire once (3D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with RADAR technology) pre-emptively at attacking aircraft units arriving at the territory.
            Attacking/escorting fighters and all attacking bomber types may not fire back when pre-emptive shots are made.  Casualties are removed immediately.  Defending anti-aircraft
            guns that fire at this point do not fire at all on the first Full Combat Round that proceeds this Combat Movement Round.

          • 1.2.2 Defending fighters and tactical bombers may scramble from territories containing air bases and/or aircraft carriers with the RADAR technology to adjacent territories or sea
            zones.

          • 2. Land Combat Movement:

            • 2.1 (As explained in the National Reference Sheet).

              • Should I cover our blitzkrieg rules?  They’re in the reference sheets I think: better than original rules.  I mention this because this also involves aircraft.

              Combat Phase:

              • 3. Full Combat Rounds:

                • 3.1a Air Combat round (meant for engaging military units):

                  • 3.1.1 Attacking fighters roll 1D12@6 once each or 1D12@8 with Jet technology once each versus defending aircraft units.  The defender assigns casualties for defending aircraft.

                  • 3.1.2 Defending fighters roll 1D12@6 once each or 1D12@8 with Jet technology once each versus attacking aircraft units.  The attacker assigns casualties for attacking aircraft.

                  • 3.1.3 Attacking bomber aircraft that have been assigned as casualties roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending fighters (never other bomber aircraft).

                  • 3.1.4 Defending bomber aircraft that have been assigned as casualties roll 1D12@2 once each versus attacking fighters (never other bomber aircraft).

                  • 3.1.5 All aircraft casualties at this point are removed.

                  • 3.1.6 The attacker may also chose to retreat a portion of or all aircraft (refer to the Retreat section for more information).  The defending fighters may chase if conditions are met
                    (refer to the Chase/routing section for more information).

                  • 3.1.7 The defender may also chose to retreat a portion of or all aircraft.  Refer to the Retreat section for more information.  The attacking fighters may chase if conditions are met
                    (refer to the Chase/routing section for more information).

                  • 3.1.8 If the Full Combat Round has finished, all attacking aircraft units may proceed to land in the Non-Combat Phase, and retreating/scrambled defending aircraft units may land in
                    the Non-Combat Phase if they’re able to.

                  • 3.1b Strategic Bombing Combat Rounds (meant for devastation to industry and base utility):

                    • 3.1.1 Interception:

                      • Defending fighters on airbases in the targeted territory, adjacent territories containing airbases and/or on aircraft carriers (with the RADAR technology) in sea zones adjacent to
                        the target territory may scramble to intercept at 1D12@3 once each or @4 once each with Jet technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once
                        each with Jet technology, and all attacking bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each.  Casualties are removed immediately after and combat ceases after one round.

                      • Defending facilities may fire once (D12@3 or @4 with RADAR technology at each attacking bomber aircraft targeting the facility).  Casualties are removed immediately after and
                        combat ceases after one round.

                      • 3.1.2 Strategic Bombing:

                        • Attacking tactical bombers roll 1D6 to determine the number of damage on a targeted facility.

                        • Attacking naval bombers roll 1D6 to determine the number of damage on a targeted facility.

                        • Attacking heavy bombers roll 2D6 to determine the number of damage on a targeted facility.

                        • Attacking strategic bombers roll 3D6 to determine the number of damage on a targeted facility.

                        • 3.1.3 The Strategic Bombing mission/s end/s and all aircraft participating in the strategic bombing round/s proceed to land in the Non-Combat phase.

                          • 3.2 Land and/or Naval Combat round:

                            • 3.2.1 Attacking aircraft units that have not rolled any combat dice in the Air Combat round may fire in the Land/Naval combat round:

                              • Attacking tactical bombers roll 1D12@7 once each versus defending land units OR 1D12@4 once each versus defending naval units.

                              • Attacking naval bombers roll 1D12@4 once each versus defending land units OR 1D12@6 once each versus defending naval units.

                              • Attacking heavy bombers roll 3D12@2 once each versus defending land units OR 3D12@1 once each versus defending naval units.

                              • Attacking strategic bombers roll 5D12@2 once each versus defending land units OR 5D12@1 once each versus defending naval units.

                              • Attacking fighters roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending land units OR defending naval units.

                              • 3.2.2 Attacking anti-aircraft guns roll 1D12@3 (1D12@4 with RADAR technology) versus defending aircraft or 1D12@2 (1D12@3 with RADAR technology) versus defending aircraft
                                that have retreated in the Air Combat round.

                                • Any hits scored on defending aircraft units by attacking anti-aircraft guns are not considered pre-emptive while attacking on any combat round.

                                • Defending anti-aircraft guns may not be assigned as casualties before other land units if there are no attacking aircraft units present in the battle (the exception is the German
                                  Flak 88 if it is used as artillery, not AA).

                                • 3.2.3 Attacking land units (excluding anti-aircraft guns) may engage defending air units:

                                  • at the value of 1D12@2 instead of engaing defending land units during a combat round at a ratio of 2 land units per 1 air unit when defending land units are present.

                                  • that are stationed in the contested territory at the value of 1D12@2 for only one combat round if there are no defending land units in the combat round.  Combat ceases after one
                                    combat round and the attacker may take the territory if there are attacking land units that have survived combat.  The defending aircraft units must then retreat as described
                                    under the applicable section under the Retreating mechanics.

                                  • that have scrambled from an adjacent territory’s air base at the value of 1D12@2 (no ratio) for an unlimited amount of combat rounds if there are no defending land units.

                                  • at the value of 1D12@1 vs defending aircraft units that have retreated in the Air Combat round instead of engaging defending land units during a combat round at a ratio of 2 land
                                    units per 1 air unit when defending land units are present.

                                  • at the value of 1D12@1 vs defending aircraft units that have retreated in the Air Combat round with no ratio for an unlimited amount of combat rounds if there are no defending
                                    land units.

                                  • 3.2.4 Defending aircraft units that have not rolled any combat dice in the Air Combat round may fire in the Land/Naval combat round.

                                    • Defending tactical bombers roll 1D12@7 once each versus attacking land units OR 1D12@4 once each versus attacking naval units.

                                    • Defending naval bombers roll 1D12@4 once each versus attacking land units OR 1D12@6 once each versus attacking naval units.

                                    • Defending heavy bombers roll 3D12@2 once each versus attacking land units OR 3D12@1 once each versus attacking naval units.

                                    • Defending strategic bombers roll 5D12@2 once each versus attacking land units OR 5D12@1 once each versus attacking naval units.

                                    • Defending fighters roll 1D12@2 once each versus attacking land units OR attacking naval units.

                                    • 3.2.5 Defending anti-aircraft guns roll 1D12@3 or 1D12@4 with RADAR technology versus attacking aircraft starting on the second Combat Round.

                                      • Any hits scored on attacking aircraft units by defending anti-aircraft guns on the second combat round and combat rounds thereafter are not considered pre-emptive.

                                      • Attacking anti-aircraft guns may not be assigned as casualties before other land units if there are no defending aircraft present in the battle (the exception is the German
                                        Flak 88 if it is used as artillery, not AA).

                                      • 3.2.6 Defending land units (excluding anti-aircraft guns) may engage attacking air units:

                                        • at the value of 1D12@2 instead of engaging attacking land units during a combat round at a ratio of 2 land units per 1 air unit when attacking land units are present.

                                        • at the value of 1D12@3 if there are no attacking land units and only attacking aircraft units in the combat round (no ratio).

                                        • at the value of 1D12@1 vs attacking aircraft units that have retreated in the Air Combat round instead of attacking land units during a combat round at a ratio of 2 land units
                                          per 1 air unit when attacking land units are present.

                                        • at the value of 1D12@1 vs attacking aircraft units that have retreated in the Air Combat round with no ratio for an unlimited amount of combat rounds if there are no attacking
                                          land units.

                                        • 3.2.7 Attacking and defending units that are assigned as casualties are removed from the board.

                                        • Note: Land units that are taken as casualties are still considered present before the end of the round (part 3.2.7).

                                        • Note: Submarines are considered to be revealed to all units if they fire (roll) on a combat round, therefore making submarines able to suffer casualties from any air or naval unit.  I
                                          figured this had to be written down because of past experiences of lacking clarification.


                                        Mechanics section

                                        • Retreating mechanics (for aircraft):

                                          • Attacking fighters, jet fighters, tactical bombers and naval bombers may chose to retreat up the amount of movement they have left after the combat round.  A sea zone must contain
                                            a friendly aircraft carrier capable of being in the sea zone that has available space if the aircraft unit is landing in a sea zone.  Aircraft carriers may provide a landing area by moving
                                            into the sea zone in the Non-Combat Phase, when planes land.  Long Range Aircraft technology permits retreating up to a maximum 4 territories/sea zones away (5 from an airbase) for
                                            attacking fighters, jet fighters, and tactical bombers, and 5 away (6 from an airbase) for naval bombers.

                                          • Attacking heavy and strategic bombers may chose to retreat up the amount of movement they have left after the combat round.  Long Range Aircraft technology permits retreating up
                                            to 7 territories/sea zones (8 from an airbase) away for attacking heavy and strategic bombers.

                                          • Defending fighters, jet fighters and tactical bombers may chose to retreat up to 2 territories, or two sea zones, or a combination of a territory and a sea zone away (or 3 from an
                                            airbase).  A sea zone must contain a friendly aircraft carrier that has available space if the aircraft unit is landing in a sea zone. Aircraft carriers may provide a landing area by moving
                                            into the sea zone in the Non-Combat Phase, when planes land.  Long Range Aircraft technology permits retreating up to 3 territories/sea zones away (remains at 3 from an airbase) for
                                            defending fighters, jet fighters, tactical bombers and naval bombers. If there are no friendly territories or friendly aircraft carriers available for landing, the aircraft is/are destroyed.

                                          • Defending heavy and strategic bombers may chose to retreat up to 3 territories, or two sea zones, or a combination of a territory and a sea zone away (or 4 from an airbase).  Long
                                            Range Aircraft technology permits retreating up to 4 territories/sea zones (remains at 4 from an airbase) away for defending heavy and strategic bombers.

                                          • Chasing (or routing, or whatever name, I don’t know…) mechanics:

                                            • If all attacking aircraft units retreat, defending fighters or jet fighters may choose to chase all attacking aircraft by using mechanics similar to interception; 1D12@3, or 1D12@4 for jet
                                              fighters only once each.  Remove all assigned casualties from the board after one chasing round.

                                              • Retreating fighters and jet fighters forfeit combat rolls.

                                              • Retreating bomber aircraft that have been assigned as casualties as a result of chasing may roll 1D12@2 once each versus chasing fighters and/or jet fighters

                                              • If all defending aircraft units retreat, attacking fighters or jet fighters may choose to chase all attacking aircraft by using mechanics similar to interception; 1D12@3, or
                                                1D12@4 for jet fighters only once each.  Remove all assigned casualties from the board after one chasing round.

                                                • Retreating fighters and jet fighters forfeit combat rolls.

                                                • Retreating bomber aircraft that have been assigned as casualties as a result of chasing may roll 1D12@2 once each versus chasing fighters and/or jet fighters.

                                                • If only a portion of the attacking or defending aircraft units have retreated and fighters remain on both sides, chasing may not occur.


                                                Non-Combat Phase

                                                • Aircraft that are landing are subject to section 1.1 of the Air Combat Movement Rounds under the Combat Movement Phase.

  • 2017 2016

    Is it what you want, down below?
    Just quote this post to get the recipe.

    Turn Order


    Combat Movement Phase:

    1. Air Combat Movement Rounds:
     1.1 Flying to the destination:
     1.1.1 The attacker declares which territories or sea zones the aircraft is/are going through.
     1.1.2 Defending Combat Air Patrol fighters in sea zones may intercept at 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology.  Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one round.

    1.1.2 Defending fighters on airbases and/or aircraft carriers (both with the RADAR technology) may scramble to intercept and roll 1D12@3 once each or @4 once each with Jet Technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all attacking bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one interception round.

    1. Air Combat Movement Rounds:

    • 1.1 Flying to the destination:

      • 1.1.1 The attacker declares which territories or sea zones the aircraft is/are going through.

      • 1.1.2 Defending Combat Air Patrol fighters in sea zones may intercept at 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one round.

      • 1.1.2 Defending fighters on airbases and/or aircraft carriers (both with the RADAR technology) may scramble to intercept and roll 1D12@3 once each or @4 once each with Jet Technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all attacking bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one interception round.

      OR

      1. Air Combat Movement Rounds:
        1.1 Flying to the destination:

      • 1.1.1 The attacker declares which territories or sea zones the aircraft is/are going through.

      • 1.1.2 Defending Combat Air Patrol fighters in sea zones may intercept at 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one round.

      • 1.1.2 Defending fighters on airbases and/or aircraft carriers (both with the RADAR technology) may scramble to intercept and roll 1D12@3 once each or @4 once each with Jet Technology. Attacking/escorting fighters may roll 1D12@3 once each, or @4 once each with Jet technology, and all attacking bomber aircraft types roll 1D12@2 once each versus defending aircraft units. Casualties are removed immediately and combat ceases after one interception round.


  • 2017 2016

    Just out of curiosity, here is a poll showing various methods.
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34875.msg1351379#msg1351379



  • Hey Baron, thanks for the tips.  I managed to get it the way I wanted.  Feel free to removed the redundant post :).

    I checked out your thread from 2014.  I chose the 4th option as it was the closest to our model.



  • Ben, could be me, but the download doesn’t work for turn order.



  • Can anyone else confirm?


  • 2017 2016

    IDK, for my part I was able to get this file.


  • 2017

    Wow! You have definitely focused on this a lot more than myself. I could see this working. However its a total redo of all existing air war. Maybe too much change,  need to redo the entire rulebook to make this work. Changes scramble airbases etc.

    I like most of it, but its an entirely different game mechanics. Essentially a new game on the same map. Have you changed anything else? Like kingkubba’s new rule set. Or is it just the air that you changed?



  • Hey Rank, these rules are part of Jinx’s mods that he uploaded.  We’ve made sure to address all other things that these rules affect, to the best of our abilities.  We just didn’t like the vanilla mechanics, which is what drove us to do this.


  • 2017

    @Ben_D:

    Hey Rank, these rules are part of Jinx’s mods that he uploaded.  We’ve made sure to address all other things that these rules affect, to the best of our abilities.  We just didn’t like the vanilla mechanics, which is what drove us to do this.

    Exactly why we went to 1936 from oob global.
    We have been tweaking the rules and mechanics too. But this is really interesting. Its like a new version of the game. I had seen some of jinx’s previous posts like the national sheets. Realy like the way you’re group is going with this. Keep it up! I’m inspired to continue our mods. So far not as ambitious as you’re group though. Id be interested to see the whole package and borrow or share some ideas. Most of ours are already posted here but I can send our modified sheets etc. They are still works of progress though every game leads to more "why don’t we? "


  • 2017 2016

    @Rank:

    The 1 round fighter air superiority is excellent. We tried it for more rounds once and only once, it was very expensive. And every one only bought fighters. If you change that you need to make air cheaper to buy. Possibly lower attack/defense value also. Or there will be fighters on CAP every where, making them cheaper or same cost as destroyers with more movement. This would eliminate most naval builds in our group by Cost vs ability. We consider this a game breaking change and decided to never try it again! All units would need a cost change resulting in an entirely different game.
    Currently the cost and values of all aircraft work very well. If you change one thing other things are affected in a chain reaction to maintain balance of purchase and prevent Over-Powered units.

    Or simply do as tac bomber already is and give fighters target select @ 1-3 on air units and eliminate the air superiority round completely. This one appeals to me most with its simplicity.

    I agree with this diagnosis.
    My main trials on Fgs imply cost change.
    I came to something near 1914 aicraft: 6 or 7 PUs and attack 2 defense 2. D12: A4 D4

    And TcB changes to 7 or 8 PUs attack 3 defense 2. D12 : A6 D4

    In these case, there was no split on dice results.
    All Fgs hit were first applied on enemy’s aircraft, when available.
    All TcBs hit allows to pick ground target of your choice, usually Tank.

    To keep full Carrier off/def ratio, I have to make it 3 planes carrier and increase defense factor from Defense 2 to 3, (D12 : D5 or 6).

    I played with both OOB warships cost and lower cost structure (SS 5, DD 6, CA 9, CV 12, BB 15).
    The difference is that in OOB cost structure, Subs 6 PUs and 7 PUs Fighters were chosen as fodder while at reduced cost 6 PUs Destroyer and Fg were chosen.
    Also, OOB cost makes costly capital warships were the last standing units in Naval combat: Carrier and Battleship. I found that this battle with Fgs and planes shot down first and Capital Warships remaining more fitting than usual Fg and BB last standing units.

    Every combat round dogfight bring a greater realism feel. And at 6 or 7 PUs it is not very different from Antitank guns taking out Tank at 6 PUs or AAA shooting down planes.

    I also have to improve AAA to make it defend each combat round for lower cost, otherwise Fgs make AAA totally obsolete; bringing mobility, versatility and are good for both offense and defense.

    Also, allowing dogfight makes for rules which create such opportunity in ground battles, not just mostly naval.
    It was allowed to land up to 2 Fgs or TcBs in a just conquered TT.
    So, instead of keeping Fgs away from border defense and keeping attacker using planes against only ground units stack, it becomes more popular to bring forward AAA and to put 1 or 2 Fgs to shot down attacking unescorted TcBs. All this make for an interesting cat and mouse between Fgs vs TcBs vs Tanks and AAAs.

    These are the major changes you can forsee.
    Clearly brings a feel of WWII double battlefields tactical situation (in SZ there is air and sea battle, in TT air and land battle).

    With opening round dogfight, it brings a glimpse of it for less trouble and modifications.
    I hope it will be possible to develop both types of air combat within Triple A G40 Redesign project.
    Don’t hesitate to share lessons learned about this opening round dogfight, this will help balance things out.

    Tell me how you deal with increased air attrition (cost change?, value changes? Etc.) and StBs or TcBs vs Fgs in dogfight. And how it can improve strategic making decision and depth of game.

    Baron


  • 2017 2016

    @Ben_D:

    Hey guys.  I haven’t posted anything significant in a long while.  It reminds me that I’ve been on this forum since 2012.  I figured I’d post this to show that I still read this forum and that I’m still actively part of the A&A community to a certain degree.  I digress.

    Anyway, Jinx and I, along with another person who’s usual screen name is The Tyrant (not meaning another person who might have that same name on this forum) are part of the same group that Jinx refers to from time to time.  I’ll speak on behalf of our group and mention that we’re just not satisfied with the current way aircraft units operate.  Their mechanics, operations and purpose simply do not reflect what they were in reality.  This leads to wonky game mechanics and several house rules in many different forum threads that simply band-aid the rules.  We’ve decided to overhaul the whole thing.  These rules are not for the light-hearted.  I will note though that it seems easier in practice than in writing, like most things you learn to do in life.  These aircraft mechanics are part of the mod that Jinx posted in another thread, but in the most amount of detail that I could put them in.  Jinx did pretty much all the leg work for drafting up those mod documents (sorry man, we’ll make it up to you haha), but we contributed several ideas and refinements and continue to do so.  This project of ours is still very much a work in progress.

    In this post, I’ll upload the Word document that I made.  I’ll post it here with no colour coding, but I think it’ll be harder to interpret and read.  I’m open to suggestions and questions for clarification.  Constructive criticism and suggestions for change are welcome too.  I hope to see some feedback.

    Hi Ben D,
    I supposed we are fellow Canadian.

    I’m just wondering if you ever think about making Strategic Bomber air roll similar to AAA defense instead of regular unit rolls
    I means that we can think that Fgs and TcBs are actively chasing each others whether in air or on landing ground or Carriers, hence each rolling one per unit.

    But StBs were for air to ground carpet bombing. Suppose a Dark sky Strategy of 6 StBs attacking a ground stack with only 1 Fg.
    The odds are clearly this Fg unit will be shot down. But, if StBs air attack is like AAA, this would imply only 1 roll against defending Fg interceptor. Does this make more sense to you?

    1 Fg cannot be surrounded by all StBs, hence 1 Fg unit is in reality actively fighting 1 StB unit while letting others passing by.

    Of course, you can say that StBs have 2 or 3 rolls (like AAA) for defense when there is more Fg than StBs.
    For instance, 2 StBs vs 6 Fgs, this would meant that each Fg get a chance to be shotdown.

    In that configuration, I visualize StBs as flying in dense formations to create an umbrella of machine guns fire all around them. At the maximum ratio of 3 Fgs flying around 1 StB to shot it down.

    More realistic? More functional for game balance?
    Tell me what you think.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    No changing of costs or values,

    Air units fight each other at reduced values

    Fighter:2
    Fighter-bomber: 1
    Strategic Bomber:1
    Jet Fighter: 3

    They fire each round concurrent with each land combat round, when all fighters from one side retreat or are destroyed, the planes fire at normal values. Note defender cannot retreat planes.

    Also , no land units can hit air units, but in combat you need at least one land unit, to use air units in land combat.

    Naval Combat with air units from both sides is handled OOB



  • Baron, thanks for the post.  In terms of demographics, we seem to be the secound largest group of A&A players, after the Americans.  Pretty cool I think 🙂

    Sub-sections 3.1.3 & 3.1.4 under section 3.1 (Air Combat Round) address the issue of the fighters being overwhelmed.  We decided to make things work that way because of re-occurring Air Combat Rounds.

    However, for section 3.1 (Strategic Bombing Combat Rounds), you have a very valid point.  I like it.  I’ll see what the consensus is.

    Something tells me that I’m going to have to better distinguish those two points…  I think 3.1a and 3.1b will have to do.

    Edit: Got it done.


  • 2017 2016

    As far as I can understand this air combat round,
    only Fighters are rolling in this dogfight phase.

    Bombers don’t roll to hit, unless taken as casualty.
    Otherwise,  all rolls are directed at ground or naval target.

    Interesting indeed.

    The bomber taken as casualty roll a special anti-air roll is an interesting feature to figure one tactical aspect on air battle.
    In single opening combat round mechanic, it makes sense.
    But, since there is multiple combat rounds with aircraft, it stays simpler that even shot down bombers keeps an ordinary rolls against ground targets. It can be seen as bombers were being shot down after delivering their payloads. On the next round, this bomber can no more deal damage.

    Usually, SBR preceeds other kind of combats.
    Fighters have to commit on interception or dogfight in Air combat round, not both, right?

    Another point, which strike me: you get the opportunity with D12 system to make AAA fire more consistent with actual historical values by making it 1 /12 but instead, it is higher than OOB G40 @1/6?

    I would accept that a given aircraft flying throw a TT on its way to combat zone have to submit to AAA fire in addition to any AAA in combat zone. But when you add up both, it is a wall of fire2*@3 or 4 = 6/12 or 8/12  that aircraft must pass before being able to attack.

    In such a high attrition game, you can make AAA cheaper with a lower defense too.
    This will keep the realistic feel without compromising any air support strategy.


  • 2017 2016

    I read that AAA in combat TT get a preemptive roll, then on second combat round get regular roll vs planes.
    You already have a very complex rules with many variations according to target and  unit which roll.
    Why not consider that all AAA roll in embattled TT is regular, no preemptive, simpler?

    The preemptive fire is already coming from interceptors and AAA in TTs flied over by attacker before reaching destination because attacking planes cannot retaliate and if shot down, will not make attack roll at all.



  • @Rank:

    Exactly why we went to 1936 from oob global.
    We have been tweaking the rules and mechanics too. But this is really interesting. Its like a new version of the game. I had seen some of jinx’s previous posts like the national sheets. Realy like the way you’re group is going with this. Keep it up! I’m inspired to continue our mods. So far not as ambitious as you’re group though. Id be interested to see the whole package and borrow or share some ideas. Most of ours are already posted here but I can send our modified sheets etc. They are still works of progress though every game leads to more "why don’t we? "

    I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to see all of your group’s work put in a document attached to a thread.  Interpreting information is hard to do when it’s not centralized, as I’m learning.  I’m thinking I didn’t make it easy for people here on the thread myself.


    @Baron:

    Fighters have to commit on interception or dogfight in Air combat round, not both, right?

    Right, not both, only one or the other.

    @Baron:

    Another point, which strike me: you get the opportunity with D12 system to make AAA fire more consistent with actual historical values by making it 1 /12 but instead, it is higher than OOB G40 @1/6?

    I would accept that a given aircraft flying through a TT on its way to combat zone have to submit to AAA fire in addition to any AAA in combat zone. But when you add up both, it is a wall of fire2*@3 or 4 = 6/12 or 8/12  that aircraft must pass before being able to attack.

    In such a high attrition game, you can make AAA cheaper with a lower defense too.
    This will keep the realistic feel without compromising any air support strategy.

    @Baron:

    I read that AAA in combat TT get a preemptive roll, then on second combat round get regular roll vs planes.
    You already have a very complex rules with many variations according to target and  unit which roll.
    Why not consider that all AAA roll in embattled TT is regular, no preemptive, simpler?

    The preemptive fire is already coming from interceptors and AAA in TTs flied over by attacker before reaching destination because attacking planes cannot retaliate and if shot down, will not make attack roll at all.

    Hmm, we figured 1D12@3 and 3D12@3 for pre-emptive shots were more along the lines of what the effectiveness was for AAA.  Maybe you’re correct man, I won’t pretend to know more than I do.  We haven’t run into any gameplay issues yet with AAA costing 4 I.P.C.s / I.P.P.s. with pre-emptive shooting abilities.  That might be another tweak that could be done.

    Remember that interceptors do not have pre-emptive shots.  Escorts and bombers do get to shoot back.

    From what I understand so far, you would give bombers the ability to shoot back at fighters in the same fashion as AAA, except not pre-emptively.  3D12@2, with only one dice assigned to one fighter.  You would also remove the pre-emptive shooting ability from AAA.

    Sounds reasonable.


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