# THE VANN 8D UNIT PROPOSAL

• Baron,

With the differences between my 8D units and VANNs 8D units… which do you like best? Please don’t give me a bunch of analytics and than play neutral, give me a straight opinion. Thanks.

• @Baron:

Here is the comparative values based on 12 IPCs Cruiser put at 5.00 as the benchmark for YG numbers.
Formula is 144*power/Cost^2.
*2.618034 for 2 hits Battleship or Carrier

If Battleship was A7 D7 C20, you would get a strength factor of 6.60 power*hit.
If Destroyer is A2 D2 C8, you would get 4.50
2 hits Carrier A0 D3 C16 is 0.00, 4.42

Comparison:
YG’s Arty  A3 D2 strength 27.0, 18.0
Vann’s Arty A2 D2 : 18.0

YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51

YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00

YG’s StBomber A5 D1 C12: 5.00 , 1.00
Vann’s StBomber A6 D1 C12 6.00, 1.00

YG’s Destroyer A3 D3 C8: Attack/Defense: 6.75
Vann’s Destroyer A2 D2 C8: 4.50

YG’s Submarine A3 D2 strength 12.00 first strike 18.00, 8.00 first strike 10.64
Vann’s 8.00 or first strike: 12.00, 4.00 or first strike: 5.32

YG’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D2 strength 2.95
Vann’s 2 hits Carrier A0 D3  strength 4.42

YG’s Carrier+ 2 Fgs A8 D12 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense approx.  5.33
Vann’s Carrier+2 Fgs A8 D13 C36 strength: attack 4.65 defense approx. 5.78

First thing I can see is that Subs - Destroyer - Cruiser - Battleship - Full Carrier get a different strength progression:

YG’s attack:    12.00 _____ 6.75 ______ 5.00 ______ 3.77  ____ 4.65
Vann’s attack:    8.00 _____ 4.50 ______ 5.00 ______ 3.77 ____ 4.65

YG’s is following a clean decreasing order of strength which worked accordingly to OOB decrease (except for Cruisers which was broken).

Vann’s is following a weaker path but Destroyer 4.50 is now under the strength of Cruiser 5.00.

Why did you make this choice Vann?

And if following the increasing in strength from DD to Cruiser, why not increase Battleship A7 D7 to keep a constant rising such as:
attack:    8.00 _____ 4.50 ______ 5.00 ______ 3.77 6.60?

That way, the costlier the unit, the better you can afford to your fleet.

Second, on Subs, both are proportionate to DDs. A3 D2 Sub meet A3 D3 DD /  A2 D1 Sub meet A2 D2 DD
Any particular reason to have chosen this value?
Is it only because Destroyer is at a lower combat value?

Also, you choose to keep the high attack value of 6.00 to StBomber instead of the lower 5.00 which make it even with Cruiser.

Is it only because you need to follow BB value (Attack 6)?
YG’s nerfed Bombers because of Dark Sky, IMO.

However you did not give defense 6 to Fighter but only 5, and this will nerfed a lot aircraft defense against bombers:
Fighter      A4 D5 strength 5.76, 7.20

Any reason?

Third, Vann’s Full Carrier get a better defense factor: 5.78 which is slightly above Cruiser than YG’s 5.33.
To me, it seems OK, but did you boost Full Carrier defense because it is linked to Fighter nerfing?

Finally, it seems that keeping Artillery moving 1 as low as Inf and MechInf make Tank (16.0) much more competitive particularly both offense and defense compared to MI (18.0):
YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51

YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00

Tank: Attack/Defense: 16.00
MInf: Attack/Defense: 9.00 / 18.00

Don’t you think it might make Tank too much interesting on offense when paired to MI?

Tank+MI A5 D6 C10, 2 hits:  Attack/Defense: 14.40 / 17.28

The destroyer strength is lower then the cruiser, and the combo of the cruiser&battleship makes the cruiser, and battleship worth buying (not obsolete). Having a higher defense strength for the carrier composites the lower fighter defense strength.

With the s-bomber&tank combo, it will make the tank more viable, and you are maybe right having the s-bomber being C12/M6/A5/D1 because of dark sky.

Having the art to a A3 will down grade the tank, and having the art to a A2 makes the tank more viable. The only good feature the tank has is blitzing.

• @Young:

Baron,

With the differences between my 8D units and VANNs 8D units… which do you like best? Please don�t give me a bunch of analytics and than play neutral, give me a straight opinion. Thanks.

I don’t forget.
It is a hard case based on analysis and what are your intent.
Analysis help decide but it is not the main factor, it has to be referred to your goals.
It is always a case of means to an end.
Takes time to see into it and an interesting challenge to find the main factors and the whole picture.
I agree with Vann, his values are increasing Tank pertinence.
D8 provides this opportunity.
I will come back later.

• With the s-bomber&tank combo, it will make the tank more viable, and you are maybe right having the s-bomber being C12/M6/A5/D1 because of dark sky.

There is only Tactical Bomber & Tank combo.
Strategic Bomber don’t have such.

• What the hell with the drama train all the time… geez… sometimes I wonder if some people are 40 going on 14…

Fucking grow up…

• What the hell with the drama train all the time… geez… sometimes I wonder if some people are 40 going on 14…

ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ing grow up…

You’re right, my apologies.

• @Young:

What the hell with the drama train all the time… geez… sometimes I wonder if some people are 40 going on 14…

����ing grow up…

You’re right, my apologies.

Sir, no need to apologize, my comment was not aimed at you but at the situation in general.

• I LOVE THE NEW CHANGES WITH THIS LARRY-MARX UNIT PROPOSAL, HOPE TO SEE A D12 SYSTEM SHORTLY, CALLED THE LARRY-MARX D12 UNIT PROPOSAL.

• @Young:

Baron,

With the differences between my 8D units and VANNs 8D units… which do you like best? Please don’t give me a bunch of analytics and than play neutral, give me a straight opinion. Thanks.

Hi YG,

here is what I would prefer:
Infantry  A1-2 D2 M1 C3: 16.00 / 32.00
Mech Inf A1-2 D2 M2 C4: 9.00 / 18.00
Artillery  A3    D3 M1 C4 : 27.00 / 27.00
Tank      A4    D4 M2 C6 : 16.00 / 16.00

Baron Arty+ Inf: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 29.39 5/8 = 62.5% for 7 IPCs, OOB: 4/6= 66.7%
YG Arty+Inf combos: Attack: 29.39 Defense: 23.51
Vann Arty+Inf combos: Attack/Defense: 23.51

Baron Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 22.50 5/8 = 62.5% for 8 IPCs, OOB: 4/6= 66.7%
YG Arty+MechInf combos: Attack: 22.5  Defense: 18.00
Vann Arty+MechInf combos: Attack/Defense: 18.00

To help players assess intuitively their odds of success and to not distort too much a given offensive or defensive stack.
Infantry A1 D2 and MI A1 D2 are already weaker (on defense: 25% odds of success compared to 33%).
And Tank will be less weaker than OOB against both combos of Artys. 50% vs 62.5% instead of 66.7%

Artillery A3 D3 and Tank A4 D4 are comparatively increasing their odds.
Artillery is absolutely rising from 33.3% to 37.5% and Tank, keeping 50%, is now twice better against Infantry (50% vs 25%).

Also, Artillery A3 D3 conveys the idea that guns have more impact than small arms from Infantry or MI A1 D2.
And people are used to Artillery unit having same attack and defense factor.
So, buying Artillery will not too much compromise defensive capacity.

• @Dauvio:

@Baron:

@SS:

Ya I like it too.
2 inf = A2 A25.0% total
1 inf+1 art = A4 A50% total makes up the drop for sure.
Cost ya 7 instead 6 icps.

Do you know how many Art are bought in a game on average for China ?

I hope it will be at least Arty A3 D2, so chinese Inf will get A2+A3 for 5/8 or 62.5% which is nearer the OOB 4/6 (66.7%) combined arms.

This little case also shows that China might be better with a strong Arty A3 D3 because defense 5/8 (62.5%) will be nearer OOB 66.7% for Art+Inf.
Otherwise, 50% 4/8 combined defense is a whole D6 pip below OOB 66.7%

China need something because japanese Fighter and TcB keeps their usual OOB 50% attack per unit.

Interesting idea about Chinese Inf at cost 2.
Mostly the case with AA50.

Baron Munchhausen have been using the ENIGMA (vann) FORMULAS on these proposals???

Hi Vann,
I made up a straighter version of Enigma formula based on the odds of making a hit instead of using the number on dice.

So, you can change the values but still can compare if you immediately use the odds as input to the formula.
It allows to compare within any dice system and a same unit with different cost or odds.

Here is below the post with YG roster and variants still discussed:

@Baron:

YG’s complete D8s roster

Here is the comparative with Enigma formula (still using a 12 IPCs unit reference) based on odds, not dice number.
144*Odds/cost^2 = strength of unit on same odds by hit per IPCs basis.

I bolded the greatest number between D8 or D6 for same unit.
When there is no difference, I did nothing.
So, you can see at glance which is boosted or nerfed compared to OOB.

Unit type  Combat value  (D8 system) (D6 OOB)
Infantry       A1-2 D2    (2.00-** / 4.00)         (2.67-3.92 / 5.33)
Inf A2+Arty A2 D2         2.94**  /  2.94         (3.92 / 3.92)
Inf A2+Arty A3 D2         3.67**  /  2.94         Same as above
Inf A2+Arty A3 D3         3.67**  /  3.67         Same as above

MechInfantry A1-2 D2  (1.125-** / 2.25)       (1.50-3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A2 D2  (2.25** / 2.25) vs       (3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A3 D2  (2.81** / 2.25) vs        Same as above
MechInf A2+Art A3 D3  (2.81** / 2.81) vs        Same as above

Artillery   A2 D2       (2.25 / 2.25)                  (3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery    A3 D2       (3.375 / 2.25)               Same as above
Artillery    A3 D3       (3.375 / 3.375)             Same as above

Tank         A4 D4            (2.00 / 2.00)            (2.00 / 2.00)

Anti-Air A  A0 D1* (0.00 / 0.72 per plane)       (0.00 / 0.96 per plane)

Fighter      A4 D5    (0.72 / 0.90 )              (0.72 / 0.96)

TcBomber  A4-5 D4 (0.595-** / 0.595)       (0.595 / 0.595)

TcB A5+Tank C17    (1.12** / 1.00)         (1.16 / 1.00)
TcB A5+Fighter C21 (0.735** / 0.653)     (0.761 / 0.653)
StBomber  A5 D1    (0.625 / 0.125)         (0.667 / 0.167)

Submarine  A2 D1 (1.00, fs: 1.50 / 0.50 fs: 0.67)   (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Submarine  A3 D2 (1.50, fs: 2.25 / 1.00 fs: 1.33)   (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Destroyer    A2 D2 (0.563 / 0.563)                        (0.75 / 0.75)
Destroyer    A3 D3 (0.844 / 0.844)                        (0.75 / 0.75)
Cruiser        A5 D5  (0.625 / 0.625)                       (0.50 / 0.50)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 (0.0 / 0.368)                            (0.00 / 0.491)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D3 (0.0 / 0.552)                          As above
Battleship    A6 D6   (0.707 / 0.707)                      (0.628 / 0.628)

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