Well, I know this is one of those topics that can be a bit dull since nothing changes before it happens each time… I just wanted to post a few thoughts on Russia 1 for the benefit of the massive numbers of new folks that have joined in recent weeks…
There has been a lot of discussion about Russia’s first build. And most folks like the idea of a “balanced” build of 4 INF and 3 ART to provide both good defense and to maintian Russia’s offensive punch. I am going to disagree. I still favor the traditional 8 INF build as Russia on R1. Part of the reason for this is how I like to use my initial Russia units, so I need some extra pieces for Europe for R2 and forward… part of it is that Russia is still in a war of attrition with Germany, and Germany still has the upper hand in terms of economics… Germany starts out with 160% of the economic strength of Russia.
Because Russia is so much weaker than Germany initially, in both number and quality of initial units and IPC revenue, Russia HAS to strike quickly to get their economy up. In addition, Germany has forces adjacent to Moscow on R1 that HAVE to be thrown back in order to secure the Russian capital.
Combat 1: All land forces from Archangel, Russia and Caucuses attack West Russia. This battle is a solid win for the Russians, and will leave them with a NICE offensive stack positioned dead center of the front. Also, due to the borders of West Russia, this stack of offensive units can be used to strike Caucuses, Archangel, and Karelia (if Germany takes them), and the German territories of Ukraine and Belorussia. West Russia is a key territory for Russia and should be taken in R1, and held at almost all cost.
Combat 2: Use the INF from Karelia to take Belorussia as well as your FIGs from Russia and Caucuses. On average you will take it with 1-2 INF left. It leaves you weak along your northern territories, but with the shielding of the West Russia stack, you have no real threat from that at this point. But by taking Belorussia, you shield the West Russia stack from a major counter-attack in G1, as well as gain some IPC’s for your R2 build.
The Russian Sub makes the traditional move to join the UK fleet. From this point on, all Russia needs to do is keep that sub with the UK fleet, or perhaps later send it to SZ6 as a blocking unit to protect UK forces shuttling troops from UK to Norway/Karelia/Archangel.
The 2 FIGs both land in Caucuses. You need the defense there in case Germany comes at you via Ukraine and possibly even with a BB supported Amphib.
Here is where I tend to differ from others… I think it is essential for Russia to attempt to counter Japan from the start while others just fall back repeatedly and then counter Japan around Novo.
Move SFE and Yakut INF to Bury. This gives you 6 INF divisions in Bury… more than enough to hold it unless Japan throws ALL of their offensive power against Bury in J1. Of course if they do, that means that India and China are still held by the Allies for Turn 2… not a bad trade. But, the reality is that Japan is NOT going to seriously attack Bury in J1 with those 6 divisions there, so you have instead preserved your Eastern IPC’s for another round AND slowed Japan’s advance on Moscow by a round.
Kazakh INF to Caucuses. Remember that threat via Ukraine and Amphib? You need defense in Caucuses. Move the 2 Kazakh INF to Caucuses to help with this.
Novo INF to Sinkiang. This DOUBLES the defensive strength of Sinkiang, which is critical since Japan usually takes China on J1. By making Sinkiang have 4 INF instead of 2, you will prevent Japan from taking Sinkiang on J2. They will need at least one more round to get enough forces to safely attack Sinkiang without risk to their AF. Stopping Japan cold in central asia with just 2 INF is a cheap and effective defensive move for Russia.
Evenk INF. This is the variable. If West Russia went well, send the Evenk INF to Yakut as a second line of defense for after your Bury forces are killed, or to make an even better line of defense if they retreat from Bury to Yakut. If West Russia went poorly, send the Evenk units to Russia.
4 INF in Caucuses (bringing you to 6 there)
4 INF to Russia (you will have 4-6 INF there)
With these moves, you have secured Russia’s main territories for the coming battles in Turn 1, and are well positioned for your own counter attack in R2. You have also increased your income to 28, allowing you to build 4 INF and 4 ART in R2 (a nice improvement!).
Things to look for in R2…
If Japan went transport heavy in J1, then your Bury INF are at risk. In R2, retreat to Yakut to get out of range of BB support shots and to be out of range of any Japan based FIGs, If you were able to send the Evenk units to Yakut, you now have 8 divisons in Yakut to face a Japan attack in J3. Even if Japan hits those units hard, the loses you inflict will still take the teeth out of the intial drive to Moscow.
Where is Germany massing forces? If it is in Eastern, then you will probably be able to do a LIGHT strike on Ukraine, and possibly Belorussia if Germany re-took that in G2. By light strike, I mean minimal INF and air forces… just enough to take it but not leave a significant number of troops exposed to be killed by a German counter. Avoid using your tanks and ART, since those units will have to stay put after the battle, and will be killed by the German counter. If possible, lightly take both Ukraine and Belorussia so that you have 1-2 INF in each after the battle. Send INF from Russia to Archangel (just 1 or 2 as a placeholder to prevent blitzing), and the remainder to West Russia to reinforce the stack.
Also watch Trans-Jordan. If Germany starts sending forces to the Middle East, send INF from Caucuses to Persia to aid in protecting UK income AND to protect your Caucuses IC from attack via the back door.
ShadowHAwk last edited by
I preferr a more aggresive approach towards germany.
Basicaly you got plenty of inf and you can supply them fast what you lack is punch.
The idea behind a more offensive build is that you attack germany instead of them attacking you.
Germany starts with a 16 ipc advantage that means that you have to shoot for more then 16 ipcs or value from them then they shoot from you in the first turn.
If you can start trading tanks + art from germany for your inf you are doing nicely first they lose more defensive power so you hit more and it costs them more, just need to keep your offense secure.
I disagree… You dead-zone central Europe with Russia pulling in 4-7 extra IPC’s per turn and let the UK build up in Karelia to tilt the scales while US mops up in Africa. Territory-trades of Bel/Kar/Ukr keeps Germany well pinnedm unable to grow, and basically waiting to die by combined assault from US/UK/USSR. And by forcibly defending against Japan in Asia, there is no way that Japan can become a threat before the Allies polish off Germany.
Russia alone does not have to get the 16 IPC’s, they just have to get enough of them (about 1/3 is fine, 1/2 is GREAT) to make Germany have to lose ARM to INF.
And most folks like the idea of a “balanced” build of 4 INF and 3 ART to provide both good defense and to maintian Russia’s offensive punch.
Really? I was quite under the impression that most people go with 8 inf. I’m the only person I know on these boards who goes 4 inf 3 art.
Territory-trades of Bel/Kar/Ukr keeps Germany well pinnedm unable to grow
That’s precisely why a build of 4 inf 3 art is good. Having more artillery lets you trade more territory and a lot easier if the Germans decide to throw more than just minimal 1-2 inf in a territory. You only have 2 planes to spread over 3 territories of trading, so you’re going to need some offensive pieces to keep the trade up.
Part of the reason for this is how I like to use my initial Russia units, so I need some extra pieces for Europe
If you mean one extra piece, then ok…
The reason I don’t like trying to hold Buryatia is that it puts your infantry out of position to counterattack. If you hold the lines in Novosibirsk you can completely crash the Japanese offensive in Sinkiang or Yakut, because your fighters are tanks are in range. The way you do it, once sinkiang is taken then you have to divert forces from Caucasus/Moscow to defend Novo/Kazakh, since your Yakut infantry aren’t in a position to do anything about it, or if they move, then they’re giving up territory.
It worked against you the last time You never breached Sinkiang or Yakut
Btw I like stacking the Russian tanks in Moscow after turn 1. From there they can push on the German front, as well as push into Sinkiang once the Japanese get there. The central Japanese prong is very weak and if you can crash it proactively then it takes some turns for the Japanese to retake it.
It worked against you the last timeÂ Â You never breached Sinkiang or Yakut
I know you’re not seriously banking on 4% or lower dice happening. So why even kid about it? :x
So now wouldn’t you say that the Axis needs a bid? I think Japan is too slow even if I abandon the East (I don’t abandon India anymore btw), and you think they’re too slow if you do a bit of Russian defense, while Germany is receiving a big butt-whooping : P
I’ll tell you what Wes… for our rematch… I’ll take the Allies again and give you a bid of 6 IPC’s…
Are you game to try it?
8 IPCs and it’s a deal?
Split the difference… 7 IPC’s, used however you like
That seems like something you guys like to do… post in AAR to discuss a strat and then go battle it out
Well, I am new to revised, by a Classic gamer of many, many years.
I am more than happy to lay down a challenge, then give it a shot.
Basically, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. That is why the Sea Lion Scare discussion got shot to sh*t because DM was willing to help me test it, and why the 11 IPC PAsia bid concept is on hold due to me getting BLASTED by dice in the DF game.
As for me and Tri… it will not be too many mroe games before he and I can no longer effectively play each other… we’ll both be so knowledgable of the other that the dice will be the main factor, not eithr of us (we are close to that point now)
But… I truly enjoy the challenge…
Axis and Allies is my addiciton… along with cigs, beer, wine, my wife…
I think we’re just trying to figure out what bid is appropriate at this point. I’m sure that either of us could beat the other as the Allies without terrible dice.
Split the difference… 7 IPC’s, used however you like
You just don’t want me to be able to purchase an additional transport piece for the bid, or a tank/inf, do you?
ShadowHAwk last edited by
Maby you should get back ontoppic guys.
The strategy of getting only inf opposed to making some offensive units as well.
The german inf takes 3 turns to be effective yours take 1 turn. Germany starts with almost no inf so his armor is exposed if ou can attack it. By ensuring a good offense the first 2 turns you can force him to back off with his tanks and you get more money from the other countries.
This difference can then be used to buy more inf so it nets you more units on the long run.
Also more offense means you can strafe more effectively and since your inf is build on your front line to some extend you can effectively strafe germany so they cant attack ( you cant attack with only tanks it is 2 expensive ). This will allow you to keep your armor around for a few turns and then let those armor units lay back capable of striking both japan and gemany later strafing them down a few turns. If by that time your allies are not there you are toast.
Actually, I’ve been having a lot of problems playing Allies/Russia. I always find that the multiplicity of threats that Russia needs to defend against really pulls it in too many different directions. My buys are usually a big rush into West Russia, and then all infantry plus one tank for an offensive punch (if I can afford it). But then I find myself stretched too think against either the Caucuses or protecting Leningrad (oh I should mention that I usually have to play minor victory because of time constraints). So, the trade off is difficult, and I am forced to stretch myself to protect against the Axis either taking Leningrad or pushing through the Caucuses to take either Moscow (usually not) or India.
88 Millimeter last edited by
A little more aggressive…
5 Inf/Art/Arm, or 4 Inf/3 Art, or 3 Inf/3 Arm
8 Inf/ Art/ 2 Arm to W Russia (should take with 5 Inf left), 3 Inf/ Art/ 2 Arm/ 2 Ftr to Ukraine (should take with 1 Arm).
6 Inf to Buryatia, 2 Inf to Russia, 2 Inf to Sinkiang, 2 Inf to Caucasus, land Ftrs in Caucasus, Russian AA to W Russia.
Collect 29 IPCs (pretty f’ing good purchase on R2), deny Germany access to the Caucasus, deny Germany a counterattack in W Russia, eliminate Ukrainian forces- and most importantly as the game lengthens- the Ftr parked there (also rubs out an 3 Inf, an Arm and Art). I don’t think it’s possible to argue that every German Ftr isn’t precious. Deny Japan an easy IPC in Buryatia, fortify Sinkiang as Switch said, and still manage to purchase some offense. Germany is also forced to take back the Ukraine, which thins their offense out a bit and means potentially one less Ftr in either SZ 15 or Egypt, making the dice a little more unpredictable.
You then proceed to stack in W Russia for as long as possible, and trade the Ukraine when lightly (1 or 2 Inf) defended, as it’s worth 3 IPCs.
The math of this opening move is also in favor of Russia- loss of 3 Inf/ Art/2 Arm=23 IPCs in equipment lost. Germany loses 28 IPCs worth. Russia gains 3 IPCs for taking the Ukraine, and the Armor will potentially take out an Inf on the way out (50/50 chance). That’s the potential for an 11 IPC swing in material. What you gain strategically is important to think about as well. How many IPCs is it worth to deny Germany the use of a Ftr for an entire game? Especially the longer the game goes. Anyone who’s lost a Bomber early on knows what I mean. It’s huge.
Every time I’ve posted this someone’s tried to shoot it down, but I don’t see the downside, provided you’re up to the task of reinforcing Russia quickly (the loss of Russian Armor can be painful, but necessary).
Whenever I’m Germany and my opposition leaves me the Ukraine, I feel like I already have an advantage. Can someone explain to me why this isn’t a solid opening move with Russia?
I think the Bel/WR open is an even better trade of units.
Follow-Up thoughts on Russia…
A slight modification to my earlier post… only 3 ARM to West Russia, the 4th (from Russia) non-combat moves to Yakut. This gives you offensive punch with those 8 INF you have in Bury and Yakut against Japan.
AFter taking West Russia and Belorussia (and then losing Belorussia), Russia should focus on taking Ukraine. This is a tough area for Germahy to get forces to, shields your Caucuses IC nicely, and is worth more IPC’s than most other territories in the battle zone.
Now here comes the challenging part…
If Japan is pressuring in Northern Asia, and has killed a lot of your forces in Bury, start moving INF from Russia east via Novo (they can then either go to Yakut or Sinkiang as needed). But if Japan is also pushing through India, start sending tropps into Kazakh from Russia.
You will need your Caucuses built forces for Ukriane, so to reinforce in the Middle East you need to use the Russia built forces. Start sending them via Kazakh (in case you need to divert any to Sinkiang along the way), and then to Persia (if still held by the Allies) to shield Caucuses from a southern strike by Japan.
If Japan is NOT pressing, then you can use the Russia built forces to move into Archangel to start rebuilding your northern defense, to reinforce the West Russia Stack, or to allow you to add 8 INF to Caucuses (4 from Russia, 4 from the build).