@Baron:
What I’m saying is that merchant navy is one thing and military navy is another.
As long as a given Power is caught unprepared, they use merchant ships to convey troops.
But, giving time and resources, which Allies have, they design and built specific troopships and landing ships for military purpose. And as military goes, they put the most cost and weight effective weapons on these troopships. They favored AAguns as being the best defense they can put to not undermine other functional aspect and probably see no other way to deal efficiently against Subs than relying upon escorting Destroyers, Frigates and Corvettes.
Now, about game depictions, it feels strange that Transports are supposed to be civilian units carrying furniture and wartime supplies, while all other units are typical military ones.
In game, the typical behaviour of Sub combat against taken last transport does not depict Subs against merchant convoy tactics at all. Instead, it describe the typical situation about naval invasion when many escorting ships keep a secure net to prevent Subs from sinking troopships.
In game, also, Allies are building TPs to make specific landing and invade directly enemy’s TTs. I’m just asking what kind of transports were built by Allies to this specific purpose?
What I’ve found yet is a typical unarmored troopship armed with limited AA capacity.
I’m no more into the abstract idea that a TP is a typical civilian cargo ship.
We don’t see TP going from EUSA coast past by Iceland and delivering into Murmansk or Archangel, or going South past Cape Horn then land into Persia to deliver Trucks to Moscow.
This part of war is totally abstract and included into Convoy Disruption.
I’m just comparing what was the facts around what the game is actually depicting.
And the more I look into it, at least from the Allies side, the more the abstract idea about typical Transport seems to provide a distorted picture.
About AA armament effectiveness, it is another point to discuss.
From an abstract POV, it says that designing such was a loss of resources and time.
But, if there was no relevance at all, why did they systematically built such on troopships, or take time to convert merchant liners with such?
@Baron:
…
Also, I rarely see any relevant anti-sub weaponry (depth-charge or hedgehog) added on Landing ships, which were the most armed amongst Transport. I may be wrong on that point, but it was mostly AA guns and one or two deck guns for dual purpose against Aircraft or Small surface vessels. It doesn’t seems very effective against any Sub prowling below surface ready to launch torpedoes at this transport. Maybe this dual purpose gun might work when a Sub was rampaging in a Convoy firing with his single deck gun, IDK.
I agree that Landing ships are no match against Battleship, Carrier and Cruiser or even Destroyer.
They don’t have armor nor enough deck guns to have any chance.
All I saw, is that any Transport which was specifically built for military purpose always received Anti-Aircraft guns and one or two deck gun(s).
What does it imply for game house rule on defense for Transports?
The game mechanic make things into a conundrum:
A side) giving a low @1 (on D12) defense against aircraft to figure what Landing ships can counter somehow, is now improving the game unit defense above an ordinary roll, since hitting specifically planes is a bonus when your opponent would have use 6 IPCs Sub or 8 IPCs Destroyer as fodder instead of loosing a costly 10 IPCs Fighter.
B side) giving a low @1 (on D12) as minimal defense to allow the enemy’s to choose the lowest and weakest naval unit in game as casualty.
But this would imply that most of the time a Submarine or a Destroyer will be sunk. And since Landing ships does not have enough firepower to sink them, an effective Landing ship defense is not depicting accurately this naval warfare: it let believe military Transport were able of such a feat.
C side) not giving any combat value to TPs also create an unhistorical depiction because it let you believe that when all escorting Warships were destroyed, all Troopships were immediately obliterate and sunk. This is not either accurate from a realist POV because TPs against overpowered enemies usually scattered and partially survived. Nor it is a game-wise effect, because in a matter of 1 combat round all your TPs and money-worth in a given SZ are taken as casualty if only a single enemy’s unit survived a monstrous naval battle, you may have an infinite number, or 10 units for 70 IPCs or more or less, it does not matter at all. All IPCs invested in TPs in this once protected SZ are now wipe out of the board.
TPs purchasing is the only unit which does this trick when attacked. Even AAA get a 1 hit value, as long as it share a TT with another ground unit type.
D side) giving an escape capacity to TPs would be more accurate, also the game allows TPs and Subs to be ignored and to share a SZ with enemy’s units. But, in game, Submarines loose this escaping capacity if only 1 single enemy Destroyer is present. If any Transport survived a naval clash, this would make TPs better at hiding than Submarines themselves!
E side) using TPs as first line casualty seems to contradict the very mission of warships, as defending TPs not the other way around.
Solving these issues can be done, if there is other tweaks about Sub vs DDs, or Fighters.
…
There is certainly other tweaks which people can think about.
Trying something different while being more respectful of Transport as military troopship not designed for combat:
Once TPs are put on the battleboard and on defender’s turn, each TP get to roll @1 to see if some escape from this battle.
A success means that this TP unit is now put into board map SZ and cannot be sunk. Transport successfully escape:
Treat it, as per usual OOB rule, as if had been ignored by attacker.
This way of escaping is similar to game Sub’s Submerge capacity, but it depends more on luck.
Sub can flee combat if there is no enemy DD. Transport always need a good roll to get same result as Sub.
This is similar to SS escape rule: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=40520.msg1693945#msg1693945
If any transport is hit, it goes behind casualty line.
On defender’s turn, transport behind casualty line does an AA roll @1, if there is any attacking aircraft, then it must be taken as casualty (attacker’s choice of aircraft type) if defender get a “1”. If there is only warship attacking, then no defense roll.
That way, Transports are not actively defending against attacking units.
When taken as casualty, it means the attacker get near target to make the hit, then Transport get its only shot at the attacker.
Example, 1 TcB is attacking three TPs. As long as it miss, transports roll to escape.
Let’s suppose first combat round: TcB rolls a “5”, TPs “2, 3, 1”, so 1 TP is safe.
Second round, TcB rolls “3”, a hit. TP taken as casualty rolls “2” and the other TP a “2”. 1 TP is sunk.
Third round, TcB “4”, TP “6”, nothing happen
Fourth round, TcB “2”, a hit. TP behind casualty line: “1”, a hit. Both units are destroyed.
So, 1 TP survived in SZ.
If it was a Submarine instead of a TcB, this warship would have nothing to fear about.
Only TPs would roll to escape, any “1”, save one TP.
Of course, any Surprise strike from Sub prevent a given TP from going behind casualty line.
In that last case, if both Sub and TcB are attacking 3 TPs, if Sub get a hit, TP sunk cannot roll @1 against aircraft. But, if TcB hit a TP, TP can retaliate @1 against TcB only.
Submarine and other warships are immune to TP retaliation roll @1, since it is treated as AA only.
Last example: 1 DD, 1 Sub, 1 TcB against 3 TPs and 1 DD
R1, DD “1” Sub “2” TcB “6”: 2 hits,
Defender keeps DD behind casualty line, removes TP (no roll), and rolls “2”. 2 TPs roll “1, 4”
So, 1 TP is safe in SZ, and attacker remove DD.
R2, Sub roll “3”, miss but TcB rolls “3” hit on TP.
TP can roll @1 and get “1”, a hit.
So, only Submarine survive the naval battle.
Variants:
1- More freedom to defender’s choice: no more taken last, anytime a TP can be taken as casualty
2- Defending roll for Transport is treated normally as @1, aircraft are not targeted.
(It assumes that a minimal escort is provided with the TP unit. So, it can sink a warship instead.)
No more auto-destroy.
No more totally predictable results.
Attacker still have a minimal risk.
The longer the escorting units survived, the greater the odds of saving a few TP units.
And not giving living TP any roll to hit enemy’s units better depict this fact that none were actually seeking enemy’s to engage. On the contrary, avoiding enemy’s aircraft or naval units was the main intent.
This totally new HR is also loosely related to what was suggested in Redesign thread:
@Baron:
@Black_Elk:
By returning the transport to the traditional 8 spot, I think this serves as the core “remainder” ipc naval unit to buy at purchase. Which is probably a good thing, since transports are the reason the naval game exists in the first place haha. I like the casualty taken last rule with a combat role of some kind, as we’ve discussed in other threads.
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On Transport, I prefer in-built incentive rather than a straight forward rule like Taken Last.
If I keep up with such a scale:
5 IPCs Destroyer A2 D2
6 IPCs Submarine A2fs D1fs
8 IPCs Transport A0 D?* **, 1 hit
What can be the incentive to keep afloat Transport, instead of a better defense value unit?
1, the higher cost 8 vs 5 or 6. Even a 9 IPCs Cruiser is not that far from 8 IPCs.
*A defensive hindrance. Hence, a Last Strike (opposite of a First Strike).
Last Strike is made that you cannot retaliate (have a defense roll) with this unit if it is taken as casualty.
**A defensive benefit ?
Here is an old idea, in a new context (5 IPCs DD and 6 IPCs Sub).
Gives all Transports an AA ability.
Only 1 shot per transport against only up to 1 plane, whichever the lower, every combat round.
And no defensive capacity against any warship, as in the defenseless transport but still keeping 1 hit value.
This would provides additional defense against Dark Sky strategy.
Planes would be a vulnerable and valuable targets, which can make an incentive to keep transports alive, as long as there is some attacking planes.
On the other part, this would emphasis the role of Submarines warfare (especially for Germany) against transports.
And the owning player would have to chose between loosing a cheap 5 IPCs DD defending @2, or a costlier TP at 8 with no defense. Either ways, the Sub commander gets something in return.
And, in the case of a combined attack with planes, loosing a TP means lesser odds to use the Transport AA defense.
To summarize:
TRANSPORT A0 D0* M2 C8, 1 hit
*Last Strike AA defense:
If the transport is not taken as casualty, each Transport gets 1 AA shot @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lower, each combat round.
No defense against warships.
@LHoffman:
@Baron:
What can be the incentive to keep afloat Transport, instead of a better defense value unit?
I personally don’t like the mandate that Transports must be the last casualties. Nor do I like that your opponent can have 6 Transports in his fleet and essentially absorb that many hits before their combat ships take the heat. Maybe we can craft a middle ground.
Pricing a Transport at 8 is not cheap and I don’t know that they could be considered quite so disposable any more. That can work in our favor. Let players choose if they want to take hits on 8 IPC transports or not.
To further incentivize keeping Transports, I would propose that they somehow be given the option to escape from an attack. Maybe one of these scenarios:
- If all the defender’s combat ships (not including submerged subs) and aircraft have been destroyed, any remaining Transports may roll (1) die each. On a roll of (1) - or (1 or 2)? - that Transport may retreat to one adjacent sea zone. All Transports do not have to escape to the same sea zone.
OR
- If all the defender’s combat ships (not including submerged subs) and aircraft have been destroyed, the attacker may roll (1) die per remaining attacking unit. Any hits are assigned to the defender’s remaining Transports. Any surviving Transports escape to any adjacent sea zone. All surviving Transports do not have to escape to the same sea zone.
This is not a very complicated rule and would give Transports a level of survivability without an offensive punch. It would at least let the defender decide which how to assign hits but give them reason to not just off them as first casualties. Low Luck players should like the fact that a transport can’t take out a superior unit. Under either rule, if the attacker gets enough hits in a single round to knock out the defender’s remaining combat units AND remaining transports, then all defending units are destroyed. Transports can’t escape in that case.
@Baron:
Gives all Transports an AA ability.
Only 1 shot per transport against only up to 1 plane, whichever the lower, every combat round.
And no defensive capacity against any warship, as in the defenseless transport but still keeping 1 hit value.
This would provides additional defense against Dark Sky strategy.
Planes would be a vulnerable and valuable targets, which can make an incentive to keep transports alive, as long as there is some attacking planes.
1 AA shot per transport, per combat round is powerful. I am thinking that under Baron’s system aircraft will need to be super-cheap because there are so many units targeting them directly: AA guns, Cruisers, Transports, Fighters, Tacs and Bombers. That virtually ensures mutual aircraft annihilation.