New Transport Defense
Wildcat6305 last edited by
There was a few quotes inside this actual thread coming from the other one, DK’s:
The aberration of the defenseless transport
Wildcat6305 last edited by
Ok, I went back looked at DK’s thread. I had looked at that sometime ago. Did I read all 30 pages? No, but I looked over the first and last couple of pages.
But what did you think of my idea? Especially the “1) If at the end of the combat round, instead of them being auto killed. Let it be similar to AAA rules. For one final round, every warship can roll 3 dice each no more than the number of transports, the transports not hit can retreat.”
I think that is a fair compromise. It’s not making the TP op, but it is limiting how many shots can be taken at the TP.
In my game now after 5 turns. 2 transports have escaped. The transports only get a escape roll if only attacking ships against only transports. So after ships attack rolls per round of combat any surviving transport gets a d12 roll @2.
First off, I realize I am late to the party on this thread, my apologies.
Secondly, there were a plethora of ideas thrown out on this thread.
I don’t see the crime in modifying the transports rules.
I find it humorous that the main reasons not to let them defend themselves is from a historical/realistic stand point. When in reality, who has ever been able to choose their casualties in a war? So in that regard, a fundamental concept of A&A is not realistic.
In an amphibious assault, the defending forces (including scrambled planes, and naval units) top priority is going to be targeting the landing craft to keep them off the beach, not the naval bombardment.
The infantry units aren’t only representing riflemen in the game. Carriers represent carrier groups, and battleships represent that group. I say all that to say, couldn’t a transport represent the transport and a minimal escort?
A transport loaded with an infantry and a tank is 16 IPC. The same cost as an Aircraft Carrier, who takes two hits. An empty transport may be seen as fodder, but not a loaded transport. To lose one or more loaded transports is major setback.
Defending @1 either on a D6 or D12 sounds reasonable to me. That is an 8% or 16% chance of a hit. Those aren’t great odds. I don’t care for the AA ability idea, that seems too limited. I also like the idea of allowing them to be taken as casualties during the battle.
A few of ideas I had and maybe a combination of would work:
- If at the end of the combat round, instead of them being auto killed. Let it be similar to AAA rules. For one final round, every warship can roll 3 dice each no more than the number of transports, the transports not hit can retreat.
- One unit on the transport and fire once at the end, before the auto kill.
**3) For every two transports let one be chosen as a casualty during combat.
- For every two transports let one defend at 1 during combat.**
I understand that a transport shouldn’t be as strong a battleship, but it is an investment when loaded that needs protection.
I have enjoyed reading through this thread.
I cannot disagree with what you assess. On various ideas for TPs, there is so many configurations. It becomes real buffet for all.
One comment I can make about 3 and 4, is that in most case it allows to use TP rule R1 because many SZ had only 1 TP in each.
When 2 TPs are together, it can be considered as a Convoy and so becomes a combat unit because escorting vessels are part of this combined arms.
When 1 TP is paired to another, 1 TP can be taken as casualty and allows for 1 defense roll @1.
So, when all alone, it is defenseless, when 2 TPs are together is becomes a working unit as other.
Now Crusader iv,
if your intent is to play as much as possible within G40 initial parameters while solving the defenseless TP paradoxes which DK showed us along this thread, I believe that Black Elk and I found an interesting way.
It doesn’t alter initial first round strategy but allows some defense and 1 hit values to TPs.
TRANSPORT with combat value 7 IPCs
Defense 0 or 1* *1 regular@1 per TPs group, if at least 2 or more friendly TPs in same SZ.
Move 2 (3 with NB bonus)
Hit value: 1
Taken as last casualty
Optional: As other warships, can be chosen as casualty anytime.
*One single defense @1, each combat round if at least two friendly transports share SZ.
If during naval combat TP number is reduced to one, it keeps its defense value @1 until the end of combat.
Cannot control SZ. Can be ignored by other warships units.
Can ignore Submarine during Combat and noncombat phases.
TP cannot by itself amphibious assault a Submarine infested SZ, must be escorted by a warship with at least an attack value of 1.
Not sure where I pulled pearl, must have been thinking of AA50 the Japanese air hit against sz56 since I was playing that the other day too But in any case, there are a few more key transport defenses for Allies in 42.2 over Axis, so it feels like it would lean towards Allied balance, which is a good thing. Probably just more satisfying overall, whatever the effects on the opening. Return them their hit value at 1 (per group as suggested) and taken last, just seems more interesting. It combines the old Classic lucky shot, but doesn’t give up the fodder problem, but makes the unit more potent for the price.
Agreed keep it at 7 ipcs
I’m going to play this way in my next face to face game for sure! Will test it out next Thursday see if the gang enjoys.
Also, if you really want to keep it from changing the opening, you could also make it a force multiplier thing, where only two transports together “A Group” get this defensive boost +1. Two or more transports together would no longer become defenseless. But the not cumulative just the 1 hit for the entire group, whatever its total number, as long as there are at least two transports in the group. This could all be interpreted as a “combined arms” type bonus, where the transport gets boosted by other transports such that the whole group gets to fire together at a 1, whereas single transports would behave OOB. Or you could just apply it universally to all transports whether single or in a group together.
What it is interesting here is that there would be a natural incentive to “fan out” your transports to try to get multiple bonuses on defense instead of just keeping one transports stack, it might be better to split them into smaller groups to get more bang out of them on defense. Things like this might encourage more island hopping, or branching out naval game instead of just a ship stack fest in a few zones. I think these changes could be popular if it feels right.
**So 1 lone transport still defends at zero.
2 transports defend at 1,
3 transports still defend at 1
4 transports still defend at 1, but…
If you broke them into 2 groups in two separate sea zones then you’d get double the defense value! Two chances to hit at a 1. This as a way to encourage fanning out over stacking together in the naval game on transport defense.**
See where I am going with it?
might be cool.
If handled that way, as a combined arms type thing, then the only opening battle affected would be the German sub hit on the US Atlantic transports. But that battle is a little busted anyway, and some even bid a destroyer there believing it is critical. Short of a destroyer added in, the group transport bonus, would give a slight disincentive for German Uboats to hit, they might go after the Canadian transports instead just to avoid the risk of that extra 1 haha
Here is what I found, clearly we are likely-minded on that issue, since the very first post I introduced in the Defenseless transport thread is this one:
Why not give transports a defense of 1 but still must be taken as casualties last ?
Increase their cost to 8
Because a transport having a defense of 1 is too generous.
In Classic, transports represented actual transports and escort ships- now escort ships have been decoupled from transports in the form of destroyers.
their is some middleway here.
Keep at 7 IPCs. It is already a long road to buy an escort fleet, transport and ground units. And bridging from one island to another requires much more transport to travel the same two ground units. The chain of communication is easily outstreched and vulnerable in PTO.
Give any group (2 or more) of Transports a collective defense of 1.
Even in a naval battle with other vessels, give at the start of naval battle the transport group a defense @1.
Transports are still chosen last.
When their is no more combat ship, the attacker still rolls and destroy as many transports as he got hits.
It lasts until the last transport has sunk (which still have 1@1).
The capacity to take hits is already a good defense.
I see no need to add more than the single@1 for all the group.
However, keep a single isolated transport as an easy target with no defense.
Historically, we can think that there is some corvettes and frigates (but not much) inside a group of transports, 2 units or more (14 IPCs and +).
Another possibility is to limit this @1 as AA only for 2 or more transports. So no combat ship could be kill by the lighter guns on board any troop transports.
I like the idea of Transports as units that are A0 D0 M2 C7 units that haul ground units from one shore to another. I also like the idea of groups of transports, that’s 2 or more transports, have a single collective defense roll of 1 on a d6. The transports would be taken as casualties last but so long as there’s 2 or more, they continue to take potshots @ 1 at their tormentors.
And here I thought I was being unique for having thought that up myself, before I read this thread. Parallel Evolution, I guess.