• 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    OK, I’m looking at giving a transport a defense shot besides at a plane only.

    Each transport can decide if it wants 1 shot D12 D1 at a plane or a Cruiser ?, Destroyer and a transport. In all my games the transport gets 1 shot each at any attacking planes.
    I don’t know off hand what the G40 OOB rule is.

    I know some US transports had 5in guns and the other ones had 20,40 mm anti air and mortars. But I can’t find any info on what was on the other WW2 transports as far as Ger, Russ and so on.

    Granted they probably didn’t have 5in guns on any other countries transports. I’m sure CWO may have some kind of info out there ?

    I got a new youngin in group now and all he complains about is the history is not right in these games. HAHAHAHA  Balance my son!

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    OK, I’m looking at giving a transport a defense shot besides at a plane only.

    Each transport can decide if it wants 1 shot D12 D1 at a plane or a Cruiser ?, Destroyer and a transport. In all my games the transport gets 1 shot each at any attacking planes.
    I don’t know off hand what the G40 OOB rule is.

    Each @1 on D12 per TP on plane only seems fine.
    It can be downgrade to a regular @1 per TP.

    Of course, TP armament cannot sink a Battleship.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    @Baron:

    @SS:

    OK, I’m looking at giving a transport a defense shot besides at a plane only.

    Each transport can decide if it wants 1 shot D12 D1 at a plane or a Cruiser ?, Destroyer and a transport. In all my games the transport gets 1 shot each at any attacking planes.
    I don’t know off hand what the G40 OOB rule is.

    Each @1 on D12 per TP on plane only seems fine.
    It can be downgrade to a regular @1 per TP.

    Of course, TP armament cannot sink a Battleship.

    What do you mean by downgraded ?

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @SS:

    Each transport can decide if it wants 1 shot D12 D1 at a plane or a Cruiser ?, Destroyer and a transport. In all my games the transport gets 1 shot each at any attacking planes.
    I don’t know off hand what the G40 OOB rule is.

    I know some US transports had 5in guns and the other ones had 20,40 mm anti air and mortars. But I can’t find any info on what was on the other WW2 transports as far as Ger, Russ and so on.

    Granted they probably didn’t have 5in guns on any other countries transports. I’m sure CWO may have some kind of info out there ?

    As famously depicted in the Humphrey Bogart wartime film Action in the North Atlantic, American Liberty ships carried a single 4-inch gun plus a number of anti-aircraft weapons.  I know that the British deployed a number of “armed merchant cruisers” which were more formidably armed than that, but AMCs weren’t really cargo vessels; they were basically auxiliary cruisers, and there were only a few of them – unlike the Liberty Ships, which were mass produced.

    The armament carried by Liberty Ships was intended for submarine and anti-aircraft defense only.  It was not intended for use against enemy surface-combat warships.  A Liberty Ship captain who was attacked by an enemy destroyer or cruiser might perhaps try to defend himself by shooting back…but my guess is that this would have been pointless because destroyers and cruisers were much faster and had longer-range guns.  A competent enemy destroyer or cruiser captain would never allow the Liberty Ship to get close enough to shoot back; he’d use his superior speed to stay beyond the range of the 4-inch gun, and he’d use his own longer-range 5-inch (destroyer) or 6-inch or 8-inch (cruiser) guns to demolish the Liberty Ship.  As for allowing a transport ship to shoot at an enemy transport ship: I think it was pretty rare for enemy merchant ships to encounter each other, and in any case a merchant ship captain would have had no business attacking enemy merchant ships.  That wasn’t their job, and it would have been foolish to waste on offense the ammunition that he was supposed to use for his own defense.

    I don’t know if other nations armed their cargo ships.  I suspect that in most cases they didn’t, and that if they did it would not have been on a scale close to what the US did.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    Thanks CWO. Thats what I found too on mostly US liberty ships and I couldn’t find nothing on other transports.

    If the US could shoot at planes,  then were the other countries transports able to do the same thing ?  If not then the 1 defense shot at a plane for a transport should not be aloud ?


  • One of the few advantages of the Liberty was the fact that they were created with defense in mind as an actual ship. During the start of WWII, the Marines that were being escorted to Guadalcanal had to be done in ex line cruiser ships because the US navy didn’t have any transports so they bought cruise ships from dry docks, literally fitted guns and armor on them and then used them in the early parts of the war. I know most of the Axis navy relied on combat ships to move troops around, I believe most of them used their merchant fleets for actual transports like barges and cargo ships.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    @Caesar:

    One of the few advantages of the Liberty was the fact that they were created with defense in mind as an actual ship. During the start of WWII, the Marines that were being escorted to Guadalcanal had to be done in ex line cruiser ships because the US navy didn’t have any transports so they bought cruise ships from dry docks, literally fitted guns and armor on them and then used them in the early parts of the war. I know most of the Axis navy relied on combat ships to move troops around, I believe most of them used their merchant fleets for actual transports like barges and cargo ships.

    So then Transports should get no A/D.


  • I argue that transports should get at least some kind of defense against something. I don’t like the idea of 100 transports being destroyed by 1 submarine. The problem is that we have blank spots in history. For example, do this day, I still have no idea how Afrika Korp got to north Africa, I can’t find a source if the Kregismarine or Royal Marina brought them there and what ships they used if it was military or civilian.

    I know US and UK transports were fitted with deck guns mostly from air raids, in fact, there is even a story of a UK transport putting their Shermans on the decks just to have some kind of defense. I don’t know if the Red Navy even had transports at all. Germany used their merchant fleet and I think Japan did the same, not too sure on the Royal Marina. I am sure even though all of these nations had SOME KIND of defense, more than likely against air raids as that was the most likely attack to happen and the most dangerous as well because you can defend against submarines with military escorts but it’s more annoying against aircraft since they have such a large area to attack from.

    So for the sake of the game, I can buy the idea of transports having AA guns, but I argue they should at least have a defense of 1 in general.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    @Caesar:

    I argue that transports should get at least some kind of defense against something. I don’t like the idea of 100 transports being destroyed by 1 submarine. The problem is that we have blank spots in history. For example, do this day, I still have no idea how Afrika Korp got to north Africa, I can’t find a source if the Kregismarine or Royal Marina brought them there and what ships they used if it was military or civilian.

    I know US and UK transports were fitted with deck guns mostly from air raids, in fact, there is even a story of a UK transport putting their Shermans on the decks just to have some kind of defense. I don’t know if the Red Navy even had transports at all. Germany used their merchant fleet and I think Japan did the same, not too sure on the Royal Marina. I am sure even though all of these nations had SOME KIND of defense, more than likely against air raids as that was the most likely attack to happen and the most dangerous as well because you can defend against submarines with military escorts but it’s more annoying against aircraft since they have such a large area to attack from.

    So for the sake of the game, I can buy the idea of transports having AA guns, but I argue they should at least have a defense of 1 in general.

    Yes I also agree that 100 trannys should all die by 1 sub or surface ship. Same thing as why does certain countries get certain naval pieces or navy’s when they really didn’t have any. So my rule I may put in game is either they get a shot at a plane andor pick a crus, dest. Or they get no defense shot but get a chance to escape. That means any 1 ship/sub or 20 ships/subs only left with transports have to roll there normal A roll. Before the ships get there A roll ea transport rolls a die and on a 1 or 2 or less get to escape and move to a the next
    Seazone.

    Example

    1 cruiser against 3 trannys.   Trannys d12 or your choice roll a 1 7 9. 1 tranny escapes to next seazone  Cruiser rolls A die and gets a 4 a hit. So now there’s 1 tranny left with cruiser. Tranny rolls again and gets a 7. No escape. Cruiser rolls A die and gets a 8 miss. Tranny rolls again and gets a 1. Tranny escapes. So 2 trannys survive. So now you need more than 1 ship sub to kill all trannys at once. Only can use this tranny rule when transports are alone.

    Also do the trannys lose there defense roll of 1 against planes or ships now when there with a fleet ?


  • If you work them like an AA gun, then they would follow AA rules however if you go by the defense of 1, then it would work like a normal ship with defense.

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    @Baron:

    @SS:

    OK, I’m looking at giving a transport a defense shot besides at a plane only.

    Each transport can decide if it wants 1 shot D12 D1 at a plane or a Cruiser ?, Destroyer and a transport. In all my games the transport gets 1 shot each at any attacking planes.
    I don’t know off hand what the G40 OOB rule is.

    Each @1 on D12 per TP on plane only seems fine.
    It can be downgrade to a regular @1 per TP.

    Of course, TP armament cannot sink a Battleship.

    What do you mean by downgraded ?

    A dedicated roll @1 towards planes (10 IPCs+ target)
    is more powerful than a regular attack @1 toward any (Subs C6, DDs C8, Fg C10, etc).

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The only AP’s that were equipped with such weaponry were Q ships, that were used as disguised raiders and had no such AA capability. They fought subs and other Merchant ships. Otherwise your just making up ships that never existed.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    Anyway I’m scraping these ideas and going with something else.


  • Hence why I say you should just go with a defense of 1. I understand why they choose to do zero defense in G40 but I think it is completely stupid you can’t use them to soak hits.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    ok here is the reality of these types of ships.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

    form a rule around this


  • Q ships from what I briefly read would literally be what I am saying which would be a transport with some kind of defense instead of being a helpless target as OOB has them set.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    I’m going with Germany and US only can build Q ships. Germany starts with 2 of these Q ships in the Baltic. US starts with none. Both countries can buy them at a extra cost of +1.

    They A1 (ships only) and D1 against subs only. All other transports A0 D0. Can only use as fodder with planes only.

    Each Cruiser now gets  1 AA shot at a plane for first round of combat only.

    I do know in the 1942 rules the transports are A0 D0.

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    OK, I’m looking at giving a transport a defense shot besides at a plane only.

    Each transport can decide if it wants 1 shot D12 D1 at a plane or a Cruiser ?, Destroyer and a transport. In all my games the transport gets 1 shot each at any attacking planes.
    I don’t know off hand what the G40 OOB rule is.

    I know some US transports had 5in guns and the other ones had 20,40 mm anti air and mortars. But I can’t find any info on what was on the other WW2 transports as far as Ger, Russ and so on.

    I got a new youngin in group now and all he complains about is the history is not right in these games.

    While it’s not perfect, no defense for transports is a lot closer to history than giving them the ability to sink enemy warships.

    Yes, some had some light AA armament, and if you’re lucky, you might mount a single 4 or 5-inch deck gun…

    On the matter of light AA, yes, in-theory you could shoot down a plane with this, but it was nowhere near the AA armament of an actual warship (even a DD)… so something like a roll of “1” on a 1D12* would be better than the standard roll of “1” on a 1D6. If you want to house-rule AA on a transport, I’d say “1” on a 1D12… using a standard 1D6 would be giving them too much credit (heck, I might even argue a 1D20).

    Now a single 4 or 5 inch deck gun for anti-sub defense… this is a long-shot… because for starters, the sub would have to be surfaced for this to even have a chance, and a 4" gun vs torpedoes usually doesn’t end well for the guy with the deck gun… but for the most part, subs stopped making surface attacks anyways, unless it was in the dead of night.

    On the issue of a single 4 or 5 inch deck gun on an unarmored transport EVER having ANY chance of engaging and destroying an enemy warship, especially since you specifically mentioned a cruiser (which would be in-reference to a 10,000-ton+ cruiser armed with multiple turrets of 8" guns and an armor belt designed to stop at least 6" and lighter armament, I’m sorry… your friends can moan all they want, a 30-knot heavy cruiser let loose in a fleet of 10-knot unarmored transports is not going to result in the loss of the cruiser in any circumstance short of divine intervention.

    Heavily armed Q-ships is an altogether different issue… they aren’t even really transports at that point… not in the traditional sense… they also still suffer from the very bad issue of no armor and no speed (it can be armed well, but it still has no armor belt and usually can’t top 10 to 15 knots tops). Their main advantage is not firepower as much as surprise… the enemy not expecting a armed merchant and closing in without expecting resistance… a proper clash between a Q-ship and an enemy warship would still usually not go well… at best there is chance against a DD or CL, but you can forget a Q-ship having any chance against a CA… and once again, surprise is the main issue here, lose it and the Q-ship is toast. In any case, it’s not really a proper transport, and certainly not the norm… if you want to try and work in unarmored slow Q-Ships, they should be a separate purchase.

    In the end, an unarmed or lightly armed typical transport IS A SITTING DUCK to any enemy vessel in this game, and giving them no defense is more realistic then giving them a 1 in 1D6 chance of killing planes and enemy warships. Your friends are getting closer to history as-is than if you start having transports sinking heavy cruisers.

    *If 12-sided dice are a rarity or an issue, you can always demand a roll of “snake eyes” on 2D6 to simulate a roll of “1” on a 1D12.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    @Wolfshanze:

    @SS:

    OK, I’m looking at giving a transport a defense shot besides at a plane only.

    Each transport can decide if it wants 1 shot D12 D1 at a plane or a Cruiser ?, Destroyer and a transport. In all my games the transport gets 1 shot each at any attacking planes.
    I don’t know off hand what the G40 OOB rule is.

    I know some US transports had 5in guns and the other ones had 20,40 mm anti air and mortars. But I can’t find any info on what was on the other WW2 transports as far as Ger, Russ and so on.

    I got a new youngin in group now and all he complains about is the history is not right in these games.

    While it’s not perfect, no defense for transports is a lot closer to history than giving them the ability to sink enemy warships.

    Yes, some had some light AA armament, and if you’re lucky, you might mount a single 4 or 5-inch deck gun…

    On the matter of light AA, yes, in-theory you could shoot down a plane with this, but it was nowhere near the AA armament of an actual warship (even a DD)… so something like a roll of “1” on a 1D12* would be better than the standard roll of “1” on a 1D6. If you want to house-rule AA on a transport, I’d say “1” on a 1D12… using a standard 1D6 would be giving them too much credit (heck, I might even argue a 1D20).

    Now a single 4 or 5 inch deck gun for anti-sub defense… this is a long-shot… because for starters, the sub would have to be surfaced for this to even have a chance, and a 4" gun vs torpedoes usually doesn’t end well for the guy with the deck gun… but for the most part, subs stopped making surface attacks anyways, unless it was in the dead of night.

    On the issue of a single 4 or 5 inch deck gun on an unarmored transport EVER having ANY chance of engaging and destroying an enemy warship, especially since you specifically mentioned a cruiser (which would be in-reference to a 10,000-ton+ cruiser armed with multiple turrets of 8" guns and an armor belt designed to stop at least 6" and lighter armament, I’m sorry… your friends can moan all they want, a 30-knot heavy cruiser let loose in a fleet of 10-knot unarmored transports is not going to result in the loss of the cruiser in any circumstance short of divine intervention.

    Heavily armed Q-ships is an altogether different issue… they aren’t even really transports at that point… not in the traditional sense… they also still suffer from the very bad issue of no armor and no speed (it can be armed well, but it still has no armor belt and usually can’t top 10 to 15 knots tops). Their main advantage is not firepower as much as surprise… the enemy not expecting a armed merchant and closing in without expecting resistance… a proper clash between a Q-ship and an enemy warship would still usually not go well… at best there is chance against a DD or CL, but you can forget a Q-ship having any chance against a CA… and once again, surprise is the main issue here, lose it and the Q-ship is toast. In any case, it’s not really a proper transport, and certainly not the norm… if you want to try and work in unarmored slow Q-Ships, they should be a separate purchase.

    In the end, an unarmed or lightly armed typical transport IS A SITTING DUCK to any enemy vessel in this game, and giving them no defense is more realistic then giving them a 1 in 1D6 chance of killing planes and enemy warships. Your friends are getting closer to history as-is than if you start having transports sinking heavy cruisers.

    *If 12-sided dice are a rarity or an issue, you can always demand a roll of “snake eyes” on 2D6 to simulate a roll of “1” on a 1D12.

    All what you say is in my 40 game now for Q ships. As far as the transports get a D12 roll of 1 at planes only is in 1 of the 39 games we play too.

  • '17 '16

    @simon33:

    @Caesar:

    Correct. I continue to protest how dumb the transport rule is. You can have 1000 transports and 1 fighter can destroy them all because transport defend at 0.

    I don’t think it is dumb. If they have no defensive weapons why would you expect a different outcome?

    What bother me about TPs and Subs is that actually, in 1941 or 1942.2, there is no way to sink TP before getting ride of all Destroyers.

    It was historically the opposite. Subs aimed at TPs and merchant ships, then flee and submerged. Against a convoy, they never go to fry the bigger fish, never.

    With TP taken last, there is virtually no way to sink TP with Subs without getting ride of all warships. Only then you get the unrealistic all TPs sinking festival…

    It seems unlikely as a single sheeps herd circled by a few dogs and a shepherd, once wolves killed the man and his dogs then they hunt sheeps.

    TPs in a SZ are not just part of a single large fleet. I assume there is more than just a single mission in a given SZ. It would be easier to accept that you can loose a few TPs before taking all warships as casualties.

  • '17 '16

    It seems SS your original way of handling TP was very near Phillip Schwartzer World War II The expansion rule on Classic A&A for Transport.
    Unable to defend against warships but able to flee after two attack rolls.
    Able to defend @1 (on D6) each combat round against aircrafts but unable to flee from them.

    Your rule was more realistic with @1 on D12.

    I believe it might help to give a few facts:

    Use in battle
    On 27 September 1942 the SS Stephen Hopkins was the first (and only) US merchant ship to sink a German surface combatant during the war. Ordered to stop, Stephen Hopkins refused to surrender, the heavily armed German commerce raider Stier and her tender Tannenfels with one machine gun opened fire. Although greatly outgunned, the crew of Stephen Hopkins fought back, replacing the Armed Guard crew of the ship’s lone 4-inch (100 mm) gun with volunteers as they fell. The fight was short, and both ships were wrecks.[26]

    On 10 March 1943 the SS Lawton B. Evans became the only ship ever to survive an attack by the German submarine U-221. The following year from 22 to 30 January 1944, the Lawton B. Evans was involved in the Battle of Anzio in Italy. It was under repeated bombardment from shore batteries and aircraft throughout an eight-day period. It endured a prolonged barrage of shrapnel, machine-gun fire and bombs. The gun crew fought back with shellfire and shot down five German planes, contributing to the success of the landing operations.

    But Liberty was not the main troop Transport ships.

    In September 1943 strategic plans and shortage of more suitable hulls required that Liberty ships be pressed into emergency use as troop transports with about 225 eventually converted for this purpose.

    Probably troop transports were much more heavily equipped by Anti-Aircraft guns than standard Liberty ship.

    For instance attack Cargo ships, or AKA:

    A total of 388 APA (troop) and AKA (cargo) attack transports were built for service in World War II in at least fifteen classes. Depending on class they were armed with one or two 5-inch guns and a variety of 40 mm and 20 mm anti-aircraft weapons.

    As amphibious operations became more important in World War II, planners saw the need for a special kind of cargo ship, one that could carry both cargo and the LCM and LCVP boats with which to attack the beach, and that carried guns to assist in anti-air defense and shore bombardment. Specifications were drawn up, and beginning in early 1943, the first 16 U.S. attack cargo ships were converted from Navy cargo ships that had previously been designated AK. During the course of the war, 108 such ships were built; many of them were converted from non-military ships, or started out as non-military hulls.

    Attack cargo ships played a vital role in the Pacific War, where many were attacked by kamikazes and other aircraft, and several were torpedoed, but none were sunk or otherwise destroyed. Nine AKAs were present at the surrender ceremony in Tokyo Bay on 2 September 1945.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_transport
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_cargo_ship

    @Der:

    Larry Harris said this about transports in 2007 on his site:

    “I will say this… Transports are considered to be lightly defended with escorts. Additional ships provide additional defense and so on.” (Posted: Fri 23.Feb, 2007)

    So originally transports were not to be thought of as just transports.

    Two maxims of the game have generally been:

    1. every decision involves some risk (dice rolls)
    2. defender chooses his own casualties

    The new transport rules violate both.

    @Der:

    More research:

    The typical troop carrying Liberty ship in WWII had 3 3"/50 cal guns, 1 5"/38 cal gun, and 8 20mm AA guns. How is this now represented in the auto-destroy rule?

    The following escort vessels I found in a short search are not represented in this game:

    Merchant aircraft carriers
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_aircraft_carrier

    Catapult Aircraft Merchantmen
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAM_ship

    Armed merchant cruisers
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantmen#Armed_merchant_cruisers

    Corvettes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette#World_War_II

    Frigates
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigate#World_War_II

    Escort Carriers 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escort_aircraft_carrier

    How do you represent them? Keep Transports defense@1.

    And we are not talking about dry goods/grain/supply transports here - supply is not modeled in the game. These are all really Troopships - which were naturally more heavily defended.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    I just double checked. My 40 game has the D12 @1 too. I don’t know if I’m going to go back to the old way.

    Wolf double 1 good idea for D6 but 90 % don’t want the change.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Probably troop transports were much more heavily equipped by Anti-Aircraft guns than standard Liberty ship.

    They had none whatsoever. The whole idea is farcical. The fact that one liberty ship damaged a German sub does not mean the thousands of liberty ships should now have AA capabilities or ability to destroy subs or other surface warships is akin to Nazi’s exploring the moon in 1944 and leaving a swastika to mark Hitlers new colony. Only The US and Germany employed decoy ships that were used to trick subs into surfacing, with the Germans using them to sink other merchant ships as Raiders ( no not Los Angeles Raiders).

    Holy crap

  • '17 '16

    @Imperious:

    The whole idea is farcical. The fact that one liberty ship damaged a German sub does not mean the thousands of liberty ships should now have AA capabilities or ability to destroy subs or other surface warships is akin to Nazi’s exploring the moon in 1944 and leaving a swastika to mark Hitlers new colony.

    So you’re the guy who made this movie?  How did you know the Nazis were on the moon? That base is a secret!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jth4yATniS4

    @Imperious:

    (no not Los Angeles Raiders).

    The Los Angeles Raiders? Dude, you’re several decades out of date, they’ve been in Oakland for a very long time and are about to move to Las Vegas.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @Imperious:

    Probably troop transports were much more heavily equipped by Anti-Aircraft guns than standard Liberty ship.

    They had none whatsoever. The whole idea is farcical. The fact that one liberty ship damaged a German sub does not mean the thousands of liberty ships should now have AA capabilities or ability to destroy subs or other surface warships is akin to Nazi’s exploring the moon in 1944 and leaving a swastika to mark Hitlers new colony.

    I.L. makes an important fundamantal point: units in A&A are a somewhat generic and abstracted representation of what the corresponding unit types did in WWII, and as such their game capabilities should reflect what most of them did most of the time in the circumstances under which they normally operated, not what a small number of them might have done under unusual circumstances.  Or to put it in statistical terms, the modeled capabilities should be based on the real-world behaviour found in the middle of the bell curve, rather than being based on the statistical outliers found at the two tail ends of the bell curve.  The fact that exceptional behaviour exists doesn’t justify treating exceptions as if they were the norm.  That would be like saying: “somebody bought a winning ticket to last week’s lottery, so this proves that everyone who buys a ticket for next week’s lottery is going to win.”

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