Axis Powers out of Control



  • The Axis kicks major butt at low levels of play. But I have yet to see a single high-skilled level game, barring terrifically bad dice, that shows the Axis have the advantage at all. In fact it’s the reverse from everything I’ve seen - the Allies win most games without a bid. It’s not overwhelming like 75% to 25%, but probably like at least 60% to 40%.



  • The general consensus on these boards is that the Axis are underpowered and require extra help to balance the play.  So, the idea is to bid to play the allies.  For example; I will offer you 2 additional infantry in Eastern Europe if you play the Axis.  Sometimes IPCs are given to the bank of Germany.  Often counter offers are made, “oh yea, I offer 3 infantry in Eastern Europe if YOU play the axis.”

    Sometimes these bids can become quite high.  I have seen bids that equal 11 IPCs in bonus pieces or even up to 22.  The discussion become, “how can I give you a ton of extra units that really don’t help you much.”

    I find this all very amusing, because I believe the Axis (while more difficult to play) do have some fantastic advantages.  I have not seen anyone use some of the strategies I employ so I am boasting it up big to get people to playtest my “theories”.

    Personally, I can’t imagine being gifted with extra units, but I can see where it will balance play against players with a skill descrepancy.

    If you dare ask more questions, I may dare to answer them!

    Octopus



  • I think the discrepancy between revised and 2nd edition is pretty large, and the axis in 2nd edition really do need a bid. I am more comfortable playing the axis sans bid in revised than 2nd edition, by far. One thing I would like to comment on is that I do not think the axis are harder to play, by any means. I believe it is the allies who must show more coordination and strategy to sucessfully crush the axis. That’s just what I think though.



  • It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I think it’s important- who are you playing against?

    If the Axis is winning nearly every game played, then there is a flaw in the players, not the game. Most likely a static strategy, or improper logistics, or just plain 'ol bad purchasing habits.

    If two people who go head to head purchase wisely, take time to plan their moves, and can see the big picture then most games should be pretty even, with a very slight allied advantage.

    And Octopus, stop teasing us with your master axis strategy… out with it!


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13

    I posted this yesterday in the new strat section and I feel baring horrible dice that the AXIS will not lose if this tactic is employed, thus the “Axis Powers are out of control”

    This isn’t very glamorous and actually quite mundane but effective and simple. G1 purchase 10 inf & 2 arm, bail out of Africa and never return move med fleet west (inf on Gib) threaten attack on UK in G2, land all aircraft on W.Euro, retreat E.Euro arm out of harms way and retake R1 gains w/inf, art and air force. G2 Move inf stack east and repeat every round. G never relents on it’s eastern push except to push back any landing on w.euro. J1 purchases 2 Trans, 2 armor & art attacks china and any empty ruso land, backs up fleet in the hopes of luring USA to pacific fleet purchase/build-up. J2 pours into russia and purchase IC for Manch. Both axis powers move directly on USSR and basically nothing else, possibly STR bombing USSR in subsequent rounds. Constant, constant, constant pressure on USSR like this with INF & Arm from both sides and it will fall. In revised, USA is too far away and UK not strong enough to slow down G enough. If Axis don’t get caught up in unneeded naval purchases, africa or aust campaigns then it is almost inevitable. Boring but inevitable.



  • Okay played another game after yesterdays posting, this time the allies did a KJF with USA1 buying two carriers (w/ 3 fighters) and a sub (plus the bb, dd, and transport), and then the remnants of the Pearl Harbor fleet attacks this on J2.  Disaster (Japan had two bb’s left but the usa had the bb, and two ftrs).  During USA2 they purchased a replacement carrier and IC in Sinkiang (to got with UK’s India IC).    Then ended up with island hopping for the usa on r4-r8, on R8 it was operation Overlord Japan and fell forever. UK fell to germany on r7 and smashed Moscow to a single ftr…luck was on the allies side for once.    With Japan gone the allies were able barely hold moscow during germanys next wave (again destroying 20+ units leaving moscow with a single ftr…luck was again on the allies side).  Once again the USSR purchasing a single ftr on round one can make a huge difference.

    19 games:  17-axis, 2-allies.

    I’ll see if anyones foolish enough to play the allies against me at DunDraCon. :evil:



  • Grim,

    I am most pleased to hear you view my assessment of the situation.  I am currently playing a game at the moment to demonstrate this.  This game is playing out like a math formula.

    Octo



  • I take that back.  Actually I am not pleased at all, because I believe the game is indeed broken and I wish it were better balanced.

    I am most sorry it is this way.  Armor defending at a 3? nutz.



  • Listen,

    I use to never bid, I would play either side at random and i would never lose… Oh the good ol’days of revised… back when it was fresh and I would waste hours and hours just looking at my moves, the ones that i had made the week before, and make counters for the next week when me and my group of five would step back to the table…

    Then one week i drew allies (in a solo game the night before our weekly game)… and i made a foolish mistake… and britan was lost on the second round… D’oh (homer couldn’t say it better) well regardless of my 2nd round folly i made it back to britan with the americans… I looked at the board… realized that the germans had but one fighter left… and a wimpy navy; america could deal with that… and start landings in norway… while the british recouped for the next two turns… so i decided even though the future looked bleak i could still win as the allies… the next two rounds for germany are text book, she bought 10 tanks and 6 men for a turn then 10 men and six tanks and barreled into russia… luckily i had been playing aggressive with russia and had turns to give… one thing leads to another… and germany is back in the horrid spot she always is… (trying to defend far too much coast line without any fodder so to speak) Anyway allies Russia and america creamed germany before japan could do much of anything so to speak …

    needless to say from that moment on we decided that bidding would be apart of the 5 person game every week… and in solo games aswell… usually are bids will go for as little as -2 or as high as 15… we play with one of the optional national advantages at random for each country so that effects the bidding considerably… (without national advantages usually germany will go for 8-7 ipc’s) gotta have a extra transport in the med…



  • @Patton+:

    the next two rounds for germany are text book, she bought 10 tanks and 6 men for a turn then 10 men and six tanks and barreled into russia… luckily i had been playing aggressive with russia and had turns to give… one thing leads to another… and germany is back in the horrid spot she always is… (trying to defend far too much coast line without any fodder so to speak) Anyway allies Russia and america creamed germany before japan could do much of anything so to speak …

    it just sounds like people just don’t know how to play Germany….and Japan for that matter.



  • I’m still waiting to see your secret strategy, Octo. I’ve done double complex start builds like you are trying against Switch, and it hardly gives the Axis an overwhelming advantage.



  • Hmmm,  perhaps next turn it will become more clear.

    Hint: The Axis destroyed 152 IPCs worth of Allied equipment this turn, while the Allies destroyed only 56 IPC’s worth.



  • You can say what you want to about my friend lowell, but he is good. And most weeks brings something new to the table. And anymore me and he have a 50/50 win ratio against each other…. Which side doesn’t really matter cause were bidding…

    So yeah i am talking about back in the day prolly 4 - 5months ago when we decided it was unbalanced in our games, and we decided this cause we were just getting to the point where everyone was acctually fairly good/we had seen each others moves developed our own, and were adapting to bad rolls incredibly well for our over all strategies… and we were all taking advantage of japan when ever the option was there… atleast for the first turn… I just love seeing japan with only one transport to start her first turn, when i am the allies…not so much when i am axis

    I personally thought it was stacked for the axis the first 3 times i played… then again i had only played axis and won all three times…

    Next 3 games i played allies won all three times. first game I took advantage of the Suez Canal as the brit’s and lined america up for a southern attack totally threw the new axis players for a loop, because they hadn’t seen it … and i had spent the game before dreading it possibly happening… cause the dice took advantage of me and i lost my battleship to the british destroyer in the med…

    Anyway the more games we played the better we have gotten… first off this isn’t the old version… and russia is a formidable power even making 24 to start… As the allies you just gotta get out of the old school of thought, like 8 men is a standard purchase, in the first three games i played that is what the russians always did… I usually build atleast one tank a turn… I personally like the 1 ftr, 1 tnk, and 3 men as a starting purchase, but sometimes i just go 3 men & 3 tanks depends on who i am up against and what i think they are gonna do with the axis powers…
    @Octopus:

    it just sounds like people just don’t know how to play Germany….and Japan for that matter.

    And lastly i reckon your about right on that one… cause this was the turning point in our games… The last game where we didn’t see the imbalance in the game against the germans… we just saw the 9 tanks / 6 fighters on the european mainland and were all to happy to play germany casue it was stacked a helluva lot better than the older version of axis and allies, But you have a longer supply route to russia for both japan and germany… and a more formidable russia if played correctly… oh dear. all she really needs is just a little help on the germans back side and she can break them …



  • My apologies Patton, I wasn’t trying to insult anyone, but now that I look at my text, I can see how it might offend.

    I believe you are correct in your assessment of Germany in seeing how powerful it is.  Not only does Germany get an additional fighter to start, it is located in a place that cannot be taken on the first turn (as the Ukraine is in the old version of Axis).  To me, it is really starting with 2 extra fighters.  The additional monies for Germany (starting at 40) also means I don’t have to take Africa to be competitive with England and Russia.  Their monies are the exact same as the old game.  While you may see the road to Moscow as a long one, I see the road to Berlin for them as even longer.

    Shift the thinking.  Do not think of Germany as the aggressor as most would think it would be with all the armor units.  Think of Germany as a Fortress that is under siege from the start.  Play Germany as many would think they would play Russia (on the defensive from beginning).  Absorb the impact, and when it is time to exhale, you take a step toward Russia.  This works for this game and the original Axis and Allies.



  • @Octopus:

    Not only does Germany get an additional fighter to start, it is located in a place that cannot be taken on the first turn (as the Ukraine is in the old version of Axis).  To me, it is really starting with 2 extra fighters.

    How is it that ukraine cannot be taken on the first turn? You can believe it is a good or bad move, but attacking it with 3 inf, 1 art, 2 arm, 2 ftr’s yiels a roughly 90% chance of taking it, which is pretty substantial.

    @Octopus:

    This works for this game and the original Axis and Allies.

    Yeah, you definitely got the original axis and allies licked. Definitely not imbalanced at all. In fact, I would go out on a limb and say that all experienced players are incorrect saying this, and are incredibly poor strategists.



  • @Octopus:

    Hmmm,  perhaps next turn it will become more clear.

    Hint: The Axis destroyed 152 IPCs worth of Allied equipment this turn, while the Allies destroyed only 56 IPC’s worth.

    Big deal, the allies start with 689 IPCs worth, you start with 620. The differential between what was destroyed was 96, the original differential is 69, so you have achieved a 30 IPCs edge. This is pretty standard…



  • Sorry Fiendish, it seems I cannot impress you.  😞



  • The axis have been strenghtened in Revised to balance the game. Although its far from historical (russia produced 4 times as many tanks as the germans in 42) its necessary if the game should be playable



  • Shift the thinking.  Do not think of Germany as the aggressor as most would think it would be with all the armor units.  Think of Germany as a Fortress that is under siege from the start.  Play Germany as many would think they would play Russia (on the defensive from beginning).  Absorb the impact, and when it is time to exhale, you take a step toward Russia.  This works for this game and the original Axis and Allies.

    The problem is that you say one thing, then do another. You say play Germany like a Fortress, then you defend Western Europe with minimal forces.



  • Uh yes.  I call France “the mouse trap” and I don’t see it as a problem at all.

    Germany looks quite healthy to me.  I would like more income, but UK and Russia aren’t going quietly.  I believe they are inviting the USA to the party so Japan needs to get into the game quick.  If any country needs scolding, it is Japan.

    The question is, do I bait the trap again, or do I shut it down?



  • To be honest with you I never have a problem getting Japan into the game quick when I play.  As to the Axis being too strong, I found it nearly impossible to win with the axis in 2nd ed.  Granted I was not the most experianced player at the time and I own revised (which helps my ability), I think the sides are even now.  An Allied player that has any sense of strat can kick my Axis butt.



  • Japan itself is not the problem, it is the current General (me).

    Germany seems to be holding its own, for the moment.

    I feel pretty good about the Axis in the 2nd Edition as well.  Switch and I are in the middle of Turn 6, I feel the tide is in his favor, but I am hoping the increased income for both Germany and Japan will kick in.  I don’t have enough fingers to count how many times Switch has rebuilt the US fleet.  Oh, and the largest stockpile of US troops are stuck on Wake.  I still haven’t figured out how Switch is going to use those against me.

    They look….stuck.    😄



  • I’ve managed to get pretty good at playing Japan, but that is because I almost allways play Japan.  I think I’ve played one game as the allies.  My Skill with Japan has led be to be totaly inept at any other power however.


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