Grasshopper's 8d System - Conversion tables for 1940 Global units

@SS:

I already know that. I am talking about d8 to. D12 is the best and yes I do want my dice to roll. D6 dice just slide.

Very true.
Indeed.

:-D

@Baron:

Sorry Ichabod,
I’m a little lazy with Punch formula:
A means Attack, D means Defense, C means Cost, HP means Hit Points.

The issue is about D8s Artillery A3 D3 C4 being too strong compared to D8s Tank A4 D4 C6.

2 Tanks A8 D8 C12, 2 HPs for 16 pips compared to OOB A6 D6 C12, 2 HPs for 12 pips
3 MIs   A3 D9 C12, 3 HPs for 12 pips   A3 D6 C12, 3 HPs for 9 pips
3 Artys A9 D9 C12, 3 HPs for 18 pips    A6 D6 C12, 3 HPs for 12 pips.

Even OOB, Tanks were not better than Artillery for defense or offense.
But now, they become still weaker.
Just compare D8s Tank pips vs Artys pips (16 vs 18) against OOB Tank vs Artys (12 vs 12)

Who will want to purchase such?
As such, it creates an anti-tank bias.
Germany will turn toward Artys+ MIs + planes.

That’s why I suggested to rise D8s Tank into A5 D4 C6.
(In a way, it is configured like Classic Tank with better offence than defence.)
So, 2 Tanks A10 D8 C12, 2 HPs for 18 pips

It will be the same pips than Artillery but 1 HP less.

But YG said this Tank will be better than Tactical Bomber A4-5 D4 C11.

Baron, I think you’re taking this too far.

“The issue is about D8s Artillery A3 D3 C4 being too strong compared to D8s Tank A4 D4 C6.” Uh, they’re not too strong. A 4 attack is larger than a 3 attack. There, it’s simplified.

No, this will not create an anti-tank bias. I personally value the 2 movement points and the 50% hit chance still sounds pretty good to me when trying to charge all the way to Bryansk. Your math didn’t take into consideration the dynamics of 2 movement points. Got it, the cost ratios won’t always be perfect for every unit as larger quantities are involved. Artillery (slow movers) still could only be purchased on G1 (maybe G2) and not really until the Russian factories are secured. Didn’t we all debate the 12 IPC cost cruiser to death or whether bombers are too effective. I will still buy tanks in large quantities. But like my previous post suggested, I like how artillery now have a little bump and are now more important. Field Artillery is not called King of Battle for no reason. During WW2, artillery was probably one of the largest contributing factor for the US Army beating the crap out the German Army.

@Young:

I just modified the values in the OP… thanks for all the feedback guys, please keep it coming.

What do you think of these changes?

Attacking unit dice odds

1/8 - White (12.5%)
Infantry (-16.7%)
Mech Infantry (-16.7%)

2/8 - Green (25%)
Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)
Mech Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)

3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
Artillery (+33%)
Submarine (+33%)
Destroyer (+33%)

4/8 - Purple (50%)
Tank (0%)
Fighter (0%)
Tactical Bomber (0%)

5/8 - Red (62.5%)
Strategic Bomber (-66.7%)
Cruiser (+50%)
Tactical Bomber w/Fighter or w/Tank (-66.7%)

6/8 - Black (75%)
Battleship (+66.7%)

Defending unit dice odds

1/8 - White (12.5%)
AA Guns (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7%)

2/8 - Green (25%)
Submarine (+16.7%)
Aircraft Carrier (-33%)
Infantry (-33%)
Mech Infantry (-33%)
Artillery (-33%)

3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
Destroyer (+33%)

4/8 - Purple (50%)
Tank (0%)
Tactical Bomber (0%)

5/8 - Red (62.5%)
Fighter (- 66.7%)
Cruiser (+50%)

6/8 - Black (75%)
Battleship (+66.7%)

*Special thanks to Big Al “Mike Tyson” for contributing in this idea & Baron Munchhausen for his calculations.

Trying to figure what changed from the original post?

@Ichabod:

Baron, I think you’re taking this too far.

“The issue is about D8s Artillery A3 D3 C4 being too strong compared to D8s Tank A4 D4 C6.” Uh, they’re not too strong. A 4 attack is larger than a 3 attack. There, it’s simplified.

No, this will not create an anti-tank bias. I personally value the 2 movement points and the 50% hit chance still sounds pretty good to me when trying to charge all the way to Bryansk. Your math didn’t take into consideration the dynamics of 2 movement points. Got it, the cost ratios won’t always be perfect for every unit as larger quantities are involved. Artillery (slow movers) still could only be purchased on G1 (maybe G2) and not really until the Russian factories are secured. Didn’t we all debate the 12 IPC cost cruiser to death or whether bombers are too effective. I will still buy tanks in large quantities. But like my previous post suggested, I like how artillery now have a little bump and are now more important. Field Artillery is not called King of Battle for no reason. During WW2, artillery was probably one of the largest contributing factor for the US Army beating the crap out the German Army.

Due to dice change (A2/6 vs A3/8), Artys odds rise by 5% offense and defense compared to OOB.

OOB it takes 9 Tanks (54 IPCs) to be even with 11 Artys (44 IPCs).
You need to purchase 10 IPCs more of Tank to bring same firepower.
As you said, we accept this because of M2 mobility.

With this little change in D8s, to be even:
You need to purchase 10 Tanks (60 IPCs) to get similar power to 11 Artys (44 IPCs). It is now 16 IPCs more.

Compared to Inf:
OOB it takes 9 Tanks (54 IPCs) to be even with 11 Infantry (33 IPCs).
You need to purchase 21 IPCs more of Tank to bring same defensive firepower.

With this little change in D8s, to be even:
You need to purchase 10 Tanks (60 IPCs) to get similar power to 11 Infantry (33 IPCs). It is now 27 IPCs more.

Now, YG change Artillery and Infantry defense value to 2/8 or 25% but keep Artillery A3 (37.5%).

This is probably a way to make Tank less powerful on offense than Artillery (as you wish) but Infantry, MIs and Artys will be 8% less effective compared to OOB.
And this allows Tank a much better ratio of 12 to 17 or 0.70 (OOB it was 0.82 and first YG version 0.90).
In number of purchase:
You need to purchase 9 Tanks (54 IPCs) to get similar power to 13 Infantry (39 IPCs) or Artys (52 IPCs). About 15 IPCs more compared to Inf, but just around 2 IPCs to get similar defensive power to Artillery.

Why do you need to keep all the pieces even. Piece cost more than it’s stronger. Don’t see why you need all this mumble jumble. You want pieces even then buy more tanks or etc.

D8

Art A3 D2. Boost inf +1

Tank A3 D4. +1 on A with a tac

I’m with Ichabod. I think tanks are too strong in any die system.
This gives you option to buy more art.
So it helps Russia defend a little better with tanks but Germany just brings more art and tacos and has to buy a few more tanks on Normandy front.

@SS:

Why do you need to keep all the pieces even. Piece cost more than it’s stronger. Don’t see why you need all this mumble jumble. You want pieces even then buy more tanks or etc.

D8

Art A3 D2. Boost inf +1

Tank A3 D4. +1 on A with a tac

I’m with Ichabod. I think tanks are too strong in any die system.
This gives you option to buy more art.
So it helps Russia defend a little better with tanks but Germany just brings more art and tacos and has to buy a few more tanks on Normandy front.

I’m sorry what? Tacos?

It is not about even power between pieces but about keeping similar ratios between the same D6s unit and D8s unit. And if changing the ratio, knowing what and why.

For my part, I really like YG basic revised ground units because it keeps same absolute number on dice for AAA, Inf, MIs.
And make MI, Arty and Tank as cost effective on defense.
Infantry remains the best defensive cost wise.

Artys becomes the best cost effective weapon on offense, by itself and more when combining with Inf and MI.
This does not boost Tank (no odds change: 50%).
It is just that Inf and MIs are nerfed off/def.
But not when combined arms with Artillery.

Inf A1-2 D2
MI A1-2 D2
Arty A3 D2
Tank A4 D4
AAA A0 D1*

Purchasing Tank compared to MI will not be a sacrifice in defense, just costlier for the same odds cost wise.
And compared to Arty, it will be a sacrifice in offensive firepower for mobility and keep similar defense cost ratio.

It will allow more room for Soviet to purchase Tank to increase mobility compared to static defense with Infantry and Artys (no big sacrifice on defense, just on offense power).

Tacos? Tactical Bomber?

YG’s complete D8s roster:

Inf     A1-2 D2
MI      A1-2 D2
Arty   A3 D2
Tank  A4 D4
AAA   A0 D1*

Fighter      A4 D5
TcBomber  A4-5 D4
StBomber  A5 D1

Submarine   A3 D2
Destroyer    A3 D3
Cruiser        A5 D5
Carrier        A0 D2
Battleship    A6 D6

@Benito:

@SS:

Why do you need to keep all the pieces even. Piece cost more than it’s stronger. Don’t see why you need all this mumble jumble. You want pieces even then buy more tanks or etc.

D8

Art A3 D2. Boost inf +1

Tank A3 D4. +1 on A with a tac

I’m with Ichabod. I think tanks are too strong in any die system.
This gives you option to buy more art.
So it helps Russia defend a little better with tanks but Germany just brings more art and tacos and has to buy a few more tanks on Normandy front.

I’m sorry what? Tacos?

No Lobster dipped in KISS.

@Young:

Here’s where I need the communities help and advice…

I want to translate the language of 6 Sided G40 oob unit values into 8 Sided unit values.

The only percentage that can translate perfectly is 50% (3/6 or 4/8).

I need to know where each unit from a 6 Sided oob system would fall on an 8 Sided system without passing a full point going left or right (- or +).

For example: cruisers moved (+) by a great margin being the only unit to move off the natural 50% translation, no unit should have a larger margin.

I want purists you use the 8 Sided System, therefore we have to translate the language, not reinvent it.

Thank you all

Sorry YG if I was off topic but I wasn’t. My last post only meant to make the art and tank where neither one was to strong. It was a suggestion for d8. I do know where your coming from.

I’ll just stick to my beannie inf.

@Young:

Here’s where I need the communities help and advice…

I want to translate the language of 6 Sided G40 oob unit values into 8 Sided unit values.

The only percentage that can translate perfectly is 50% (3/6 or 4/8).

I need to know where each unit from a 6 Sided oob system would fall on an 8 Sided system without passing a full point going left or right (- or +).

For example: cruisers moved (+) by a great margin being the only unit to move off the natural 50% translation, no unit should have a larger margin.

I want purists you use the 8 Sided System, therefore we have to translate the language, not reinvent it.

Thank you all

@Baron:

YG’s complete D8s roster:

Inf     A1-2 D2
MI      A1-2 D2
Arty   A3 D2
Tank  A4 D4
AAA   A0 D1*

---

Fighter      A4 D5
TcBomber  A4-5 D4
StBomber  A5 D1

---

Submarine   A3 D2
Destroyer    A3 D3
Cruiser        A5 D5
Carrier        A0 D2
Battleship    A6 D6

IMO, you nailed it actually YG.

By keeping low values with the same absolute number and combined arms bonus is still +1 (no need to adapt mentally),
you nerfed lightly Fg defense and TcB offense.
Keeping all 50% into 4 (easier to adapt to this change, too)
Cruiser is more an optimized purchase compared to both DD and BB, as it has never been.
Battleship is as strong and competitive with Cruiser, and keeps the 2 hits bonus.
Remains in same twice relative value with Subs and DDs A3.

IMO, the last issue is here:
Subs keeps the same attack factor than her nemesis Destroyer.
Defense @2 is still weaker than DD defense @3.
Maybe you need to be clear about your intent on Sub.
They will be (8%) better on defense than OOB.
But DD is 5% better on defense…

From my POV, it will make much interesting battle when Sub will be pinned.
They gonna have a better retaliation.
A tinny bit of thrill for attacking Destroyer, even if she had plenty of Air support.

I’m totally OK with Submarine.

Do you think that SBR and dogfight may be interesting that way?

Fighter Attack 2 (25%) Defense (intercept) 3 (37.5)
TcB Attack 2 (25%)
StB Attack 1 (12.5%)

Or are you going more conservative?
Fighter Attack 2 (25%) Defense (intercept) 2 (25%)
TcB Attack 1 (12.5%)
StB Attack 1 (12.5%)

It is the best of both worlds.
OOB makes all @1.
D8, makes for Fighter better in dogfight.
Simply below and above D6 @1 (16.7%)
Seems to be able to satisfy purist.

Fighter interceptor 2/8 (25%) +8%
Fighter escort 2/8
Tac Bomber 1/8  (12.5%) -4%
Strategic Bomber 1/8

@Young:

I have found that many of the problems with G40 unit profile values can be solved by using an 8 Sided die.

Attacking unit dice odds

1/8 - White (12.5%)
Infantry (-16.7%)
Mech Infantry (-16.7%)

2/8 - Green (25%)
Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)
Mech Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)

3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
Artillery (+33%)
Submarine (+33%)
Destroyer (+33%)

4/8 - Purple (50%)
Tank (0%)
Fighter (0%)
Tactical Bomber (0%)

5/8 - Red (62.5%)
Strategic Bomber (-66.7%)
Cruiser (+50%)
Tactical Bomber w/Fighter or w/Tank (-66.7%)

6/8 - Black (75%)
Battleship (+66.7%)

Defending unit dice odds

1/8 - White (12.5%)
AA Guns (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber (-16.7%)

2/8 - Green (25%)
Submarine (+16.7%)
Aircraft Carrier (-33%)
Infantry (-33%)
Mech Infantry (-33%)
Artillery (-33%)

3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
Destroyer (+33%)
Aircraft Carrier (+33%)

4/8 - Purple (50%)
Tank (0%)
Tactical Bomber (0%)

5/8 - Red (62.5%)
Fighter (- 66.7%)
Cruiser (+50%)

6/8 - Black (75%)
Battleship (+66.7%)

*Special thanks to Big Al “Mike Tyson” for contributing in this idea & Baron Munchhausen for his calculations.

@Baron:

YG’s complete D8s roster:

Inf     A1-2 D2
MI      A1-2 D2
Arty   A3 D2
Tank  A4 D4
AAA   A0 D1*

---

Fighter      A4 D5
TcBomber  A4-5 D4
StBomber  A5 D1

---

Submarine   A3 D2
Destroyer    A3 D3
Cruiser        A5 D5
Carrier         A0 D2 D3
Battleship    A6 D6

@Young:

Strategic Bombing Raid Air Battle

Fighter interceptor 2/8 (+16.7%)
Fighter escort 2/8 (+16.7%)
Tac Bomber 1/8 (-16.7%)
Strategic Bomber 1/8 (-16.7)

@Young:

So how many problems has the 8 sided system solved so far?… I’ve lost count.

I’m sold to your D8 system…
:-D :-D :-D

I’m curious to see how such would change tactical dynamic in game.

I don’t know if such special red, black and blue dices with special symbols from Fantasy Flight game, might be used to tell outright success or fail. At least, for some units.

I just realized you put Carrier to D2, combining with 2 Fgs D5+D5.
It will weaken a lot Carrier on defense.
D12/24 (50%) compared to OOB D10/18 (56%)
I would tend to rise it to same value as Destroyer : D3.
D13/24 (54%)
A Full Carrier will still be weaker than OOB in defense.