Grasshopper's 8d System - Conversion tables for 1940 Global units

  • Sponsor

    That is incredible CWO Marc… Being a right brain thinker and visualizer, I can’t tell you how helpful your chart is. Thank you.

  • Sponsor

    Attacking unit dice odds

    1/8 - White (12.5%)
    Infantry (-16.7%)
    Mech Infantry (-16.7%)

    2/8 - Green (25%)
    Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)
    Mech Infantry w/Artillery (-33%)

    3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
    Artillery (+33%)
    Submarine (+33%)
    Destroyer (+33%)

    4/8 - Purple (50%)
    Tank (0%)
    Fighter (0%)
    Tactical Bomber (0%)

    5/8 - Red (62.5%)
    Strategic Bomber (-66.7%)
    Cruiser (+50%)
    Tactical Bomber w/Fighter or w/Tank (-66.7%)

    6/8 - Black (75%)
    Battleship (+66.7%)

    Defending unit dice odds

    1/8 - White (12.5%)
    AA Guns (-16.7%)
    Strategic Bomber (-16.7%)
    Submarine (-16.7%)

    2/8 - Green (25%)
    Infantry (-33%)
    Mech Infantry (-33%)
    Artillery (-33%)
    Aircraft Carrier (-33%)
    Kamikaze Token (-33%)

    3/8 - Blue (37.5%)
    Destroyer (+33%)

    4/8 - Purple (50%)
    Tank (0%)
    Tactical Bomber (0%)

    5/8 - Red (62.5%)
    Fighter (- 66.7%)
    Cruiser (+50%)

    6/8 - Black (75%)
    Battleship (+66.7%)

    Strategic bombing raid air combat unit values

    1/8 - White
    Tac Bomber (-16.7%)
    Strategic Bomber (-16.7)

    2/8 - Green
    Fighter interceptor (+16.7%)
    Fighter escort (+16.7%)

    *Special thanks to Big Al “Mike Tyson” for contributing in this idea & Baron Munchhausen for his calculations.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @Young:

    That is incredible CWO Marc… Being a right brain thinker and visualizer, I can’t tell you how helpful your chart is. Thank you.

    My pleasure.  Good luck with your project.


  • hey all…I know im new, but its my feeling (with regards to main man baron) that the carrier in general is too powerful on defense…my reasoning is the dreaded historical flavor view that an aircraft carrier needed and still needs escorts because it cant defend itself very well…so, in our game I feel it should be represented that way by a weaker defense (actually 1 on a 8 imo), but 2 on a 8 will work…the aircraft carrier is bought way too much because its in essence over powered…by balancing the defense folks will need to by “escorts”…look the cruiser & battleship have been balanced favorably to allow for better escorting for instance…its all about trying to get all units bought more like they should imo…

  • '17 '16

    @CWO:

    @Young:

    That is incredible CWO Marc… Being a right brain thinker and visualizer, I can’t tell you how helpful your chart is. Thank you.

    My pleasure.  Good luck with your project.

    What did you use to draw it, Marc?

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    D8  = 12.5%
    D10 = 10.0%
    D12 =. 8.333%

    Think I got it right. Don’t tske long to do on paper

  • '17 '16

    @Baron:

    @Young:

    I slept on it and the Carrier in my opinion needs to defend at 2/8… it’s purchase rate is already through the roof, so let’s not use the opportunity to make them even stronger. I’m open to other opinions on this…

    It is not the case for a stronger Carrier.

    Food for thought:

    I just realized you put Carrier to D2, combining with 2 Fgs D5+D5.
    Sum: Defense 12 pips
    It will weaken a lot Carrier on defense. (-6%)

    Nerfed Carrier, A0 D2 + 2 Fighters A4 D5 Sum : A8 D12
    Defense: 12 out of 24 (3*D8) : 50% odds

    Compared to OOB full Carrier A6 D10  out of 18 (3D6)
    Defense: 10 out of 18 = 56% odds

    I would tend to rise it to same value as Destroyer : D3.
    Carrier D3 + 2 Fgs A8 D10
    Defense with D3 Full Carrier:  D13 out of 24 = 54% odds

    A Full Carrier D3 will still be 2% weaker than OOB in defense.

    (Carrier in itself is not a whole combat unit, she needs planes.
    Hence, the real factor is comparing when it is a full compliment on board. And the best defensive comes with 2 Fighters, but the conversion into D8s made their defense factor slightly below OOB. That’s why, all in all, lowering 2 Fgs defense and giving a slight buff to Carrier make it near to OOB defense.)

    Side note, OOB we are used to compare Destroyer defense to be the same as Carrier.

    In addition, all Sub, Destroyer, Cruiser and BB get a better offensive and defensive power compared to OOB. (Meaning that Full Carrier will be relatively to other warships less cost efficient on defense compared to OOB Carrier vs OOB warships.)

    Submarine   A3 D2  A37.5% D25% +4% & +8%
    OOB                      A33.3     D16.7

    Destroyer    A3 D3 A37.5%  D37.5% +4%
    OOB                      A33.3     D33.3

    Cruiser        A5 D5 A62.5% D62.5% +12.5%
    OOB                        A50    D50

    Battleship    A6 D6 A75% D75% +8%
    OOB                     A66.7   D66.7

    Carrier D3  A8 D13 A33.3% D54.2%      -1.4%
    +2Fgs OOB:A6 D10 A33.3% D55.6%

    Carrier D2  A8 D12 A33.3% D50%      -5.6%
    +2Fgs

    Finally, if you nerfed StB offense (-5%) but also nerfed Fgs defense (-5%) and Carrier defense (-8%), you will be in the same situation against Dark Sky Strategy. While lowering StBs offense and Fgs defense but making Full Carrier D3 showed it is just -2% to OOB. That way StBs will be less efficient for Dark Sky.

    @bigalmeacham:

    hey all…I know im new, but its my feeling (with regards to main man baron) that the carrier in general is too powerful on defense…my reasoning is the dreaded historical flavor view that an aircraft carrier needed and still needs escorts because it cant defend itself very well…so, in our game I feel it should be represented that way by a weaker defense (actually 1 on a 8 imo), but 2 on a 8 will work…the aircraft carrier is bought way too much because its in essence over powered…by balancing the defense folks will need to by “escorts”…look the cruiser & battleship have been balanced favorably to allow for better escorting for instance…its all about trying to get all units bought more like they should imo…

    The choice is always on main poster hands.
    I made the case to show that Carrier is not more powerful than OOB because Fgs have been nerfed.
    And if you rather still want to weaken its defense from a more historical POV, it is alright too. Cruiser has been buffed a lot, to increase attractiveness of this unit.

    Wanting a radically less Carrier spam, D2 is the way to go.
    Players will have to revise their naval purchase habits and even strategy.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @Baron:

    What did you use to draw it, Marc?

    The figures were computed on a calculator.  I then used Microsoft Word to make the digits and the arrows, which I then pasted into Microsoft Paint, which is what I then used to draw the boxes and the brackets.  Paint has a useful “view gridlines” function, which generates a graph-paper look.  The gridlines don’t show up as part of the image itself (because they’re a tool), so to keep them I took a screenshot of the finished picture (with PrintKey) and pasted it into a second Paint document, which is the one that I saved and posted.

  • Sponsor

    I dropped the defense value of a sub to a rock bottom 1/8, Carriers will stay at 2/8 defense, and Kamikaze tokens hit the board at 2/8 lowering their percentage to hit from oob values.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=40443.msg1689436#msg1689436

  • '17 '16

    @CWO:

    @Baron:

    What did you use to draw it, Marc?

    The figures were computed on a calculator.  I then used Microsoft Word to make the digits and the arrows, which I then pasted into Microsoft Paint, which is what I then used to draw the boxes and the brackets.  Paint has a useful “view gridlines” function, which generates a graph-paper look.  The gridlines don’t show up as part of the image itself (because they’re a tool), so to keep them I took a screenshot of the finished picture (with PrintKey) and pasted it into a second Paint document, which is the one that I saved and posted.

    Thanks, I will try it.

  • Sponsor

    I have added a poll question.

    Thanks for participatiing.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    Make it A3 D2 with there special abilities. Always wanted stronger subs in game.

    I play D12 games and your close to Attack value A4 33.3 % but in D12 defense is D2 16.6 % so for d8 your defense is 8.34 % better. Just showing numbers. I may have to raise the sub to a D3 to match the rest of the numbered dice. But subs cost 8.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    For a 6 icp cost for a sub that’s pretty cheap for a A3 D2 sub. Make it A2 D2 keep special abilities and give the Germans wolf pack for every 2 subs attack at 3.

  • Sponsor

    @SS:

    For a 6 icp cost for a sub that’s pretty cheap for a A3 D2 sub. Make it A2 D2 keep special abilities and give the Germans wolf pack for every 2 subs attack at 3.

    Hey SS, thanks for the input, and I appreciate the participation… the only reason why I didn’t include an option in the poll for A2 D2, is because the oob 6 sided system has subs at a stronger attack value than it’s own defense value. Therefore, equalizing it’s attack value and defense value would not be an acceptable representation of oob subs when trying to translate it into an 8 sided system.

  • '17 '16

    To what extent YG are you and your fellow players willing to change your Sub dynamic vs Destroyer (and planes) to get as similar to Battle of Atlantic and make Sub acting mostly like Sub, DD as Destroyer and planes like planes against Sub?

    In itself D8s is already a big change.
    Open bar for Subs during first two rounds, also.

    I tested many things on that Topic.

  • '17 '16

    Because it is lower odds than OOB, I like Attack 2 Defense 1 Cost 6,
    with both iconic Stealth Move and Surprise strike always on (this make A2 first strike similar to A3 on D8 sides, and Def@1 first strike about like D@2).

    You can also induce more Sub-like behavior with : Sub cannot hit Sub, in addition to
    Subs cannot hit planes.
    It cut the possibility to use Subs as cheap DDs fodder able to retaliate against enemy Sub.

    Subs cannot be hit by plane is part of Sub ellusive capacity.
    And requiring DD presence to hit Subs by airplanes is so a major part of OOB rule, it would be difficult to tweak this rule.

    Blocking Sub’s Submerge usually trap isolated group of Subs with 1 DD and bunch of aircrafts.
    Also difficult to move around this rule. But not impossible.

    Another kind of behavior to reduce Subs padding fleet capacity, is to consider Subs and surface vessels as 2 naval group targets. So when attacking a SZ with surface warships, you have to choose which group is going to be attacked. Once done, the attacker may choose to stay or retreat against Subs, and have to retreat if it is enemy surface vessels which are still in SZ.

  • Moderator 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 '12

    I said: 2 and 1, if Subs stay at the cheap cost of 6.
    Would change that up (to 3 and 2), if Subs cost a more reasonable 8.

  • '17 '16

    Increasing Sub cost to 8 will doom any Battle of Atlantic.
    Subs need to be cheap in order to let Germany and Italy spend a few bucks on Naval instead  of more versatile aircraft or necessary ground units.

  • Sponsor

    What would be the proper 6 sided values transferred to the 8 sided system without changing anything else in the game?

  • '17 '16

    There is no direct answer, unfortunately.
    **Value D6     1           2          3  **
              %        16.7      33        50
    Value D8    1       2         3
               %  12.5    25      37.5
    OOB % Sub D16.7    A33
    OOB % DD        AD33

    Nearest OOB Sub attack is “3” or 37.5%  (+ 4.2%)
    Nearest OOB Sub defense is “1” or 12.5% (- 4.2%)
    OOB Subs attack is same as DD, so “3” is better.
    Subs defense should be half Destroyer attack value, but “1.5” does not exist.

    However, if added together:
    A3+D1= 4 pips on D8 or 50%.
    Compared to OOB A2+D1= 3 pips on D6 or 50%.

    So, overall what Submarine A3 D1 gains in offense, is lost on defense.
    In a way, making it with similar combat pips compared to OOB sub.

    Considering Sub A3 D2 is mostly increasing defense combat value of Sub units.
    So it is much stronger than OOB Sub: attack +4.2% defense +8.3%, sum +12.5%.
    While Destroyer is only better than OOB by 8% : attack +4.2%, defense +4.2%, sum 8.4%.

    But now, if you consider that Sub keeps its iconic Surprise strike always on (increasing odds of survival by 1.5) in D8 system, here is the interesting thing you get:

    Submarine D8
    Attack 2 first strike     0.251.5 = 37.5%
    Defense 1 first strike  0.125
    1.5 = 18.75%

    For comparison:
    Submarine D8 when no DD is present.
    Attack 3 first strike     0.3751.5 = 56.25%
    Defense 2 first strike  0.25
    1.5 = 37.5%

    OOB Submarine D6
    Attack 2 first strike     0.331.5 = 50%
    Defense 1 first strike  0.167
    1.5 = 25.05%

    Submarine D8
    Attack 2    =  25%
    Defense 1  =12.5%

    So, the first 8s dice Sub surprise attack @2 remains exactly as Destroyer “3” (37.5%) or Sub “3” when DD is present. And Sub’s defense 18.75% is near OOB 16.7% (by 2.05% margin).
    In addition, this Sub A2fs D1fs preserved the 2:1 offense/defense ratio of OOB sub and similar odds.
    On the opposite, Sub A2 D1 has 3 pips for 37.5% (is -12.5%) compared to 4 pips of A3 D1 and overall OOB Sub (50%).
    While Sub A2fs D1fs get odds around 56.25% and overall is only 6.25% above OOB.
    A3 D1 in first strike mode is 56.25+18.75= 75% and this is 18.75% above Sub A2fs D1fs.

    That’s why IMO the nearest combat values translation in D8 system is this Sub with Surprise strike always on.

    This surprise strike always on also increase Sub survivability (since enemy’s casualties cannot retaliate) does not make its surprise attack devastating as @3 Subs; which would be: 37.5*1.5= 56.25% which is also 6.25% above OOB surprise attack odds at 50% (33%*1.5). So this is aiming at increasing Battle of Atlantic feel.

    This may also satisfy Wittmann (needs to nerf Sub) because Sub’s best attack never exceed 37.5%, which is far below OOB 50%. And never exceed 18.75% as best defense, which is also below OOB 25% for @1 first strike.
    Total nerfing: 12.5 + 6.25 = - 18.75% compared to OOB Sub able to do Surprise strike.
    But compared to OOB Sub regular shot : 4.2 + 2.05 = +6.25% better but below Destroyer increase of +8.4% odds to hit.

    Destroyer can still be used as blocker against Stealth move and Submerge.
    DD is also mandatory to allow aircrafts to hit Subs.


    And on personal taste for better depicting strength of unit, I rather like that Destroyer have a higher direct combat value compared to Subs:
    Destroyer D8
    Attack 3   37.5%
    Defense 3 37.5%
    Cost 8

    Submarine D8
    Attack 2 first strike    (37.5%) you get a hit 25% of time
    Defense 1 first strike (18.75%) get a hit 12.5% of time
    Cost 6

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    Ya Baron I already posted this in YG other thread on sub change with the poll.

  • '17 '16

    @SS:

    Ya Baron I already posted this in YG other thread on sub change with the poll.

    I had not finished my post yet.

    Do you mean this post?

    @SS:

    I think I got this right. Make the sub A2 D2.

    It loses - 12.5 % on attack but gains back + 12.5 % on defense.
    Maybe this was mentioned in YG other thread D8. Then you wouldn’t have to change sub rules. For C6 sub what is loses on attack it gets to make up for the other things subs can do.
    Are you open for D6 die rolls for subs and keep the d6 values ? You are still rolling for AA, SBR and convoys.

    If the case, we still not advocating for the same Sub combat values.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    @SS:

    For a 6 icp cost for a sub that’s pretty cheap for a A3 D2 sub. Make it A2 D2 keep special abilities and give the Germans wolf pack for every 2 subs attack at 3.

  • 2022 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 '13 Customizer

    @SS:

    Make it A3 D2 with there special abilities. Always wanted stronger subs in game.

    I play D12 games and your close to Attack value A4 33.3 % but in D12 defense is D2 16.6 % so for d8 your defense is 8.34 % better. Just showing numbers. I may have to raise the sub to a D3 to match the rest of the numbered dice. But subs cost 8.

    A3 D2 C6 with all special abilities to strong. But would love this in a game.

    Your options

    A3 D1 C6.   With YG proposal house rule

    A2 D2  C6.  Wolf packs +1 on A per 2 subs

    A3 D1 C6.  All German subs A3 D2  gives them a bit more

    A3 D2. C8.  Never will happen in this game

    A3 D2  C6.  Subs in Atlantic side
    A3 D1. C6.  Subs in Pacific side. But this would never happen

    You guys for the 40 OOB game are getting closer every month towards the 39 game rules with your changing things up.  😄  😄

    I believe no matter what you do for sub values you are going to need a house rule installed.

  • Sponsor

    Sounds good, let’s see what the poll says after a few more days.

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