Sea lion



  • Situation;

    j1 DoW on America,

    America no longer neutral, it can move planes and ships onto the UK, because it is no longer neutral,

    G3 Sea Lion,

    Germany is still not at war with America/nor DoW america,

    I believe the american units would just leave on america turn,

    Thoughts?



  • I believe the US would need to declare war on Germany in order to put its units in the UK. It can Dow Germany after a J1 because it has the ability to declare war on any Axis power after an unprovoked DOW.



  • Page 15

    Neutral Powers: When a power is not at war with
    anyone, it is neutral. Powers that begin the game
    neutral, such as the United States and the Soviet
    Union, aren’t initially part of the Allies or the Axis. The
    Axis powers are on the opposite side of these neutral
    powers, but they are not yet considered enemies.
    While a power remains neutral, it operates under
    even tighter restrictions. A neutral power can’t move
    land or air units into or through neutral territories. It
    can’t move units into or through territories or onto
    ships belonging to another power or use another
    power’s naval bases, nor can another power move
    land or air units into or through its territories or onto
    its ships or use its naval bases.

    So when Japan Attacks America it is no longer neutral. As far as i understand that mean america can move onto UK and not be at war with Germany



  • if the United States lands units in the UK, it is a DOW on Germany and Italy.



  • Can you show me where that rule is?


  • 2018 2016

    America is immediately able to declare war on Germany after the J1 DOW. America plays after Japan so they can just boogie right over to UK and any other allied areas including ANZAC as well as park next to Japanese islands.

    No problems here.



  • @happynewyear1945:

    Can you show me where that rule is?

    You posted it yourself:

    A neutral power can�t move
    land or air units into or through neutral territories. It
    can�t move units into or through territories or onto
    ships belonging to another power…

    Since the UK belongs to UK, if US lands planes or units in the UK, it must have declared war beforehand.



  • Europe rule book Pg. 22 Under Where Units Can Move Air Units: “An air unit must end its move in an eligible landing space. Air units can land in any territory that was friendly (but not friendly neutral) at the start of the current turn.” further down it says " If your power isn’t at war, you can’t move your air units into territories or onto aircraft carriers belonging to another friendly power."



  • @seancb:

    America is immediately able to declare war on Germany after the J1 DOW. America plays after Japan so they can just boogie right over to UK and any other allied areas including ANZAC as well as park next to Japanese islands.

    No problems here.

    Yes i understand America CAN declare war on Germany. That is not the question.

    What happens to American Aircraft on the UK after G3 Sea Lion, while Germany is Not at war with America.



  • @happynewyear1945:

    @seancb:

    America is immediately able to declare war on Germany after the J1 DOW. America plays after Japan so they can just boogie right over to UK and any other allied areas including ANZAC as well as park next to Japanese islands.

    No problems here.

    Yes i understand America CAN declare war on Germany. That is not the question.

    What happens to American Aircraft on the UK after G3 Sea Lion, while Germany is Not at war with America.

    America would be at war with Japan, and not Germay



  • @Requester45:

    Europe rule book Pg. 22 Under Where Units Can Move Air Units: “An air unit must end its move in an eligible landing space. Air units can land in any territory that was friendly (but not friendly neutral) at the start of the current turn.” further down it says " If your power isn’t at war, you can’t move your air units into territories or onto aircraft carriers belonging to another friendly power."

    The states is Not Neutral in this situation, it is at war with Japan



  • Yes it is at war with Japan which lifts its restrictions against Japan only. The US would need to be at war with Germany and Italy as well (all axis powers) in order to land in friendly territories. This would include the Pacific side of the map. The US while only at war with Japan, can only attack Japan and move its navy into sea zones other than the ones off of the coast of US territories.



  • @happynewyear1945:

    @seancb:

    America is immediately able to declare war on Germany after the J1 DOW. America plays after Japan so they can just boogie right over to UK and any other allied areas including ANZAC as well as park next to Japanese islands.

    No problems here.

    Yes i understand America CAN declare war on Germany. That is not the question.

    What happens to American Aircraft on the UK after G3 Sea Lion, while Germany is Not at war with America.

    I think the real question is: how did you get USA aircraft to the UK while the USA is still neutral and not at war? Until USA is at war it cannot move units into UK or any territory that is not a USA original territory.

    Once again this scenario makes no logical sense. Under what scenario can you conceive that the USA can DOW all the Axis powers and elects not to?

    IF Japan goes J1 against the USA the logical course of action for the USA is then to declare war on Germany/Italy on the USA turn. There is no scenario that makes sense for the USA not to declare war on Germany/Italy.

    The main draw back for the Axis with a J1 DOW opening move on the USA is that the USA is now at war with everyone and ramps it production up to the 70’s.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Official Answers TripleA Moderator

    This is the relevant part of the rulebook here:

    @rulebook:

    Political Situation: The United States begins the game at war with no one. In addition to the normal restrictions (see
    “Powers Not at War with One Another,” page 15), while it’s not at war with Japan, the United States may not move
    any units into or through China or end the movement of its sea units in sea zones that are adjacent to Japan-controlled
    territories. While not at war with Germany or Italy, the United States may end the movement of its sea units on the Europe
    map only in sea zones that are adjacent to U.S. territories, with one exception: U.S. warships (not transports) may also
    conduct long-range patrols into sea zone 102. The United States may not declare war on any Axis power unless an Axis
    power either declares war on it first or captures London or any territory in North America, or Japan makes an unprovoked
    declaration of war against the UK or ANZAC, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis powers on its following
    turn.
    However, if it’s not yet at war by the Collect Income phase of its third turn, the United States may declare war on any
    or all Axis powers at the beginning of that phase. This is an exception to the rules for declaring war (see “Declaring War,”
    page 12), which may normally be done only at the beginning of the Combat Move phase.

    So a J1 DOW on USA has the effect that USA may DOW on Italy and/or Germany on US1. At this point this US DOW is mandatory for enabling the USA to extend the range of their units on the Europe side of the map and to land in UK. When Germany attacks UK, UK and US defend together.

    HTH 🙂



  • @P@nther:

    This is the relevant part of the rulebook here:

    @rulebook:

    Political Situation: The United States begins the game at war with no one. In addition to the normal restrictions (see
    “Powers Not at War with One Another,” page 15), while it’s not at war with Japan, the United States may not move
    any units into or through China or end the movement of its sea units in sea zones that are adjacent to Japan-controlled
    territories. While not at war with Germany or Italy, the United States may end the movement of its sea units on the Europe
    map only in sea zones that are adjacent to U.S. territories, with one exception: U.S. warships (not transports) may also
    conduct long-range patrols into sea zone 102. The United States may not declare war on any Axis power unless an Axis
    power either declares war on it first or captures London or any territory in North America, or Japan makes an unprovoked
    declaration of war against the UK or ANZAC, after which it may declare war on any or all Axis powers on its following
    turn.
    However, if it’s not yet at war by the Collect Income phase of its third turn, the United States may declare war on any
    or all Axis powers at the beginning of that phase. This is an exception to the rules for declaring war (see “Declaring War,”
    page 12), which may normally be done only at the beginning of the Combat Move phase.

    So a J1 DOW on USA has the effect that USA may DOW Italy and/or Germany on US1. This US DOW is mandatory for enabling the USA to extend the range of their units on the Europe side of the map and to land in UK. When Germany attacks UK, UK and US defend together.

    HTH 🙂

    Ya that is what i thought. The reason i was asking this question is my friend was playing a Triple_A Global 1940 2nd and this situation happened. I guess it was a glitch.

    thanks panther



  • Thanks P@nther. That’s what I thought it was.



  • thanks for everyone that commented.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    The US has absolutely no reason not to declare war on Germany and Italy after a J1. I’m not sure what you’re debating about. Declare war and move your green stuff wherever you want in the Atlantic.

    If you can get your fighter from Eastern US to London and the UK has done everything it can to defend itself, then it would probably be a good idea to do that. The fighter would be eating away at the German aircraft. Even if the Americans lost the fighter, as long as they’re taking German air with them it is a good trade for the Allies. That’s fewer planes to assault Russia and Allied ships in the Atlantic and the �Med. You can get your fighters to London by landing it on Iceland US1 and then London US2.

    You can also do something like this, which would be enhanced is there was a J1;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X6LjB8bCbw



  • Agreed GHG. And US fighters couldnt make it to UK anyway in 1 turn.



  • The “real” question then becomes in regards to Sea Lion is this. IF Japan goes J1 does that eliminate Germany from performing Sea Lion later than G2? The USA has a lot of options at its disposal at the start of the game + their Turn 1 build to shut down Sea Lion dead in its tracks if the USA wants to. If the USA cannot stop the G2 dice fest in London and Germany takes it the USA will coming storming in on USA3 and just retake it.

    Seems like a lot of dead German IPC in units for a one turn sacking of London.


  • 2018 2017 2016

    @PainState:

    The “real” question then becomes in regards to Sea Lion is this. IF Japan goes J1 does that eliminate Germany from performing Sea Lion later than G2? The USA has a lot of options at its disposal at the start of the game + their Turn 1 build to shut down Sea Lion dead in its tracks if the USA wants to. If the USA cannot stop the G2 dice fest in London and Germany takes it the USA will coming storming in on USA3 and just retake it.

    Seems like a lot of dead German IPC in units for a one turn sacking of London.

    This is my whole point of building heavily in the Atlantic on the first 2 turns. Do what you can to make it a foolish move by Germany to do Sealion on G3. For the Allies to win the game the UK is going to need to control Africa, the Middle East, and the Med and they can’t do that if they don’t get a start on it until it’s too late and Italy has become a beast. The US should have plenty of time to build in the Pacific after turn 2. There’s nothing stopping them from moving ships from the Atlantic through the Panama Canal if you decide that you don’t want to use them there after Germany spends their big wad of money on turn 2.



  • @PainState:

    The “real” question then becomes in regards to Sea Lion is this. IF Japan goes J1 does that eliminate Germany from performing Sea Lion later than G2? The USA has a lot of options at its disposal at the start of the game + their Turn 1 build to shut down Sea Lion dead in its tracks if the USA wants to. If the USA cannot stop the G2 dice fest in London and Germany takes it the USA will coming storming in on USA3 and just retake it.

    Seems like a lot of dead German IPC in units for a one turn sacking of London.

    But, in reality, that sacking of London can potentially give Italy the pause it needs to one up the Brits in Africa. One turn of nothing coming out of South Africa. There is certain a benefit to it no matter how you cut it, losses and all…

    Maybe US does retake it rapidly, at least you know exactly where they’re going that is comforting especially as you move deeper into the Soviet Union.

    My two cents…


  • 2018 2017

    If London actually fell, then that is all true–the Allies are paralyzed.  A US rescue plan would require a KGF fleet and cross, which requires Ichabod’s Atlantic investment from get-go (because you don’t know what the J plan is necessarily).  We just discussed using 102 to shuttle more stuff over there and attack the Germany fleet, but this only works in the channel and London has to die in the process (because you don’t have an LZ if London stands and japan hasn’t attacked you yet).    The rescue with ground units will be more challenging (because you didn’t cross in the face of all the german air ready to Sea Lion and facing west).

    All of that is belated thinking;  with a proper turtle of 6+1, bringing all that can gather in London, followed by another round or two of part spend should make UK very costly to take over and Germany may not even try it.    If he surprises you with a rapid build of transports and strategic bombing, then you haven’t played UK very often;  Germany can change its plan at any juncture.  The UK in the Global version has crap money but its enough to prevent disaster.

    The rescue plan is more for the situation where J3 J4 and later turns where the US is mostly focused on KJF and so only has a limited amount of stuff off Gibraltar.    Otherwise, the Germans after turn 5 will not be able to attack (or even move on) UK without inviting a counterattack from the substantial US/UK fleet that has gathered to KGF.  At that point any US fighters (there are at least 6!) could have landed, and Sea Lion even with 100% commit should be a bust.



  • I think the bigger question is when should Sea Lion be aborted?

    Should one abort all plans for Sea Lion if, say, Italy is diced hard in the Med and lost the majority of its transports/fleet?

    Probably, because one would assume that the main goal of Sea Lion is to stop the Brits in Africa so that Italy can rapid expand. In this case, Germany is better off going after Russia. The argument can be made that one is, at the very least, gaining the British IPCs, but in reality one has gained nothing since one will not even be able to re-build the airforce and, thus, leaving one to struggle on the eastern front and unable to repel the coming American wave.

    If the Germans take too long to assemble the units required for a sure thing Sea Lion, it should also be aborted. As mentioned above, by this time, the US, in theory, will be too potent.

    What if Germany lost an abnormal amount of planes during T1 or T2?

    Sea Lion should most definitely be aborted.

    As a UK player, one should also note all of the above because these are all tells as to Germany’s capabilities. If, for example, Germany lost a lot of aircraft in T1, one should conclude that there is a Sea Lion reprieve and can focus on Africa.

    In sum, if one is playing as the Axis and is wielding a weak, transport-less/fleet-less Italy, then what would be the point of Sea Lion?



  • Well you stop UK from building more units and force the US to try to rescue London. Especially if UK did not expected a Sealion and build nothing to prevent it. Many people think that Sealion will not happen and thus only build minimal defenses against it. If Japan does a J1 or J2 DOW at the same time and pushes string against India than US also has to decide what to do. Help to free London as fast as possible and risk a Axis win in the Pacific or split forces.


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