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Crazies as far as the holocaust, I have to ask



  • My fellow WW2 geeks,

    I just saw something on Fox about a prof teaching in his classes that the holocaust never happened.  I have heard these insane ramblings before, but never knew where they got their propaganda.  I don’t go to crazy white supremist sites to look into it, because hey - look at the source, and what they preach is disgusting to me.  So what is the insanity of the argument?  I do know one thing about the Nazi regime.  Because they were German, they were thorough.  There is no “paper trail”.  In the documents they reffered to victems as “cargo” or whatever.  If that is their “proof” than any sane person can read between the lines.  Of course they may be playing to the crazies who will believe anything.  But why is that even worth mentioning?  There are crazies out there who said we never landed on the moon, but any sane person knows it did happen.

    Because (like many of you) I am a world war 2 geek, I am morbidly curious what their spin is.  I am sure after hearing it, it will be like shooting fish in a barrel.  But what is it?


  • Moderator

    ahem we didn’t make it to the moon; Yes I believe that “crazy” notion. But apparently you didn’t watch the Documentary I did on it. Does that make me insane? Or is that in the eye of the beholder? I am a mod. If I am insane and you are not then that technically means you need to be in my shoes and not vice-versa (relatively). Answer that riddle…

    How we define what a human is and what its rights are helps us answer your question. A human (to me) is any creature born from a Human Male and Female. What their genetic makeup or Religion (add the rest of the legal litany) doesn’t matter.

    Human discrimination is something that has always been acts empires have preformed to see the power that they have mentally over a population. You start a Genocide and people fight back then you have not enough solid power in their mind, because they still have  a conciense. You start a Genocide and no one fights back (including other people types in the country) then you know they are desensitized to atrocities. It allows them to test how far they can go, and how far they can encroach on someone else’s rights. It is a power game that the Nazi’s played well. But it wasn’t new to them. US African American Troops in WW1 tried to avoid capture for this very reason. (note this is a small occurence due to the limited amount of African-Americans that served in the armed forces at the time. Most served in the “services” roles like bands.) They were treated brutally if they were captured. I know Christian Germans that love the African People so I know it is not their (German) “makeup”. It is strictly empirically minded individuals who try to convince their population that one man is less then another and that we need to “eliminate” them or humiliate them for our “benefit” or “pleasure”. It happened. We should discuss it respectfully, because history forgotten is history not learned from. Some say, “What benefit do we have from keeping those terrible places as they are? We should erase it from our planet!” I disagree. When you have to get down and dirty, and get your nose rubbed into the uncomfortable places that dot our earth, it leaves you with something that you will not take for granted. That something will keep another Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Napolean, or Tyrant from coming to power.

    GG



  • Unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots out there who believe that the halocaust never happened. I remember around the time of the Passion of the Christ hooplah that Mel Gibson’s father was on some radio station claiming that “The Jews just came to America, not too many of them were killed”.



  • The lack of a paper trail is one thing (which I really don’t think is tied to the Nazis being German, but anyway), as well as the only scattered and vague reference to a “Final Solution.”  I think this was surprising given that other orders were oftentimes extremely specific, and I’m not sure how much fear of international condemnation really played a part masking Nazi orders.

    I think someone else made the rather maccabre calculation of how many people could actually pass through the gas chambers, etc.  And they came up far short of 6 million.  Of course, I’m not really sure how they made that calculation, and they take the logical flying leap that the camps were built for other purposes, but never really provide an adequate explanation for why they were all there anyway.

    I don’t know if it’s strictly tied into white supremacy, but of course that is an element.  Check out David Irving.  He’s the scholar that took another scholar to court for libel in a critique of his book on the Holocaust (that it never happened).  What is shocking about Irving is that, I believe, he has no ties to white supremacists.  Another interesting take would be “The Protocols of Zion,” a documentary that came out last year, I think.  More to do with 9/11 conspiracies, but an interesting exploration of the underlying motivations and sustaining sources for these ideas.

    But, in the end, eh.  What are you going to do?  People will believe almost anything, even when it’s been disproved a hundred times over.  Hope this provides a bit more information.



  • I don’t believe Zooey is saying that Germans are naturally genocidal or supremacist.  If I’m mistaken, then that’s pretty low.  On the contrary, he’s just saying that German people are good at covering their bases, and in this case, covering their tracks.  However, I don’t really know why the higher-ups in the Nazi High Command would just go along with the Holocaust.  If I were one of those guys, there’s no way Hitler or any of his cronies could convince me that it would be beneficial to murder millions of people on what I view to be a whim.

    Since this is the current subject, I think it might be appropriate to bring up Schindler’s List.  IF I were one of the people responsible for systematically murdering the Jews, I would make it a point to be a double agent of sorts, leading them to believe that I supported the Nazi cause, all the while exporting Jews to safety.  (Sorry if I ruined the movie for anyone who hasn’t seen it yet  :-P)



  • Sorry, that probably wasn’t clear.  I meant that comment along the lines of:  I don’t think that Germans are necessarily (or better - “naturally”) thorough.  Definitely wasn’t implying that Zooey thought Germans were naturally genocidal.  There were obviously a lot of weird things going on in the German high command at that time, and the chain of command structure was definitely one of those.  Sorry about that!


  • Moderator

    SUD, that was a very interesting read thanks for sharing that. I actually don’t base that belief on either the flag (Solar Wind was actually my reasoning behind that being wrong) or photography (Light emissions, Lens used, etc.) but on survival possibilities of Astronauts in their Spacecraft enviroment. Once beyond the Magnetic Envelope of Space their isn’t a “free” sailing where you are debunked of encountering Solar Radiation. You are going to get hit by Rays. I went to a site though just to see if they had something to debunk that and I found out about Bremsstrahlung. So since I am in the simmering embarrasement platform at the front of the class I will submit what I found 🙂 .

    Bremsstrahlung is when Electro-Magnetic Radiation is created by an accelerated particle (such as an electron) deflected by another particle, in our case, metal particles. Solar Radiation is mainly Radiant Energy and is on the lower end of the Electromagnetic Spectrum. By creating a large amount of shielding (particles) to interact with the Accelerating Radiation Particles they could have easily created more chances to kill the Astronauts then normal Sun Radiation. More Resistance = More Bremsstrahlung. So I now have that closed as a possibility in my mind.

    But I must say I now know why I kept believing it after some of it had been debunked. Everyone I told that I believed that theory said “Your an idiot! Can’t you see the pictures.” Now I do not mind getting called an idiot (glad you had a good laugh 😄 ). But I do mind people that do not research whether it is possible overall to accomplish what is being refuted. You are the first person that has ever done that and I am happy to be corrected by you.

    Now that I am way off topic and need to redeem myself as a mod…

    Zooey you asked, “But why is that even worth mentioning?” I assume you mean why even try to debunk it. My response those who don’t question don’t learn, or they will learn by expeirimentation. In our case the only way to learn that the holocaust is real is by observational Experimentation. When was the last time you saw a child burn their hand and say “That doesn’t hurt me.”? In the same way these guys are not convinced or they have closed their minds to something I was always told “you never stop learning.” They in effect refuse to ask questions where they will get no as an answer. And it is sad that they will never know the truth behind the deeper issues of what happened…

    GG



  • I just saw something on Fox about a prof teaching in his classes that the holocaust never happened.

    But he was an engineering instructor not a social sciences instructor 😉.  Besides you shouldn’t believe what you think about Fox News they have been cited in the past for factual inaccuracies which they don’t bother to correct.  Yellow journalism indeed!

    So what is the insanity of the argument?  I do know one thing about the Nazi regime.  Because they were German, they were thorough.  There is no “paper trail”.  In the documents they reffered to victems as “cargo” or whatever.  If that is their “proof” than any sane person can read between the lines.  Of course they may be playing to the crazies who will believe anything.  But why is that even worth mentioning?  There are crazies out there who said we never landed on the moon, but any sane person knows it did happen.

    There really isn’t any proof which is the problem with this “urban legend” it started circulating after WWII some speculate by former Nazis and sympathizers and it comes back every now and again with another wave of anti-semitism.  Usually it just points out weaknesses in the documentation used at nuremburg etc but doesn’t have any factual evidence to support the opposite hypothesis.  Namely it doesn’t account for the many documented cases of people who disappeared and where they went, and why so many people who lost loved ones would lie.



  • GG, in my opinion, that is what science is all about - Always question, seeking to know the truth behind everything, until you can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.  People who don’t question things like this, well, they’re just cutting themselves off from the possibility of learning from it.  If you don’t cut yourself off, then you can learn from everything, no?  :?


  • Moderator

    @AgentOrange:

    GG, in my opinion, that is what science is all about - Always question, seeking to know the truth behind everything, until you can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.  People who don’t question things like this, well, they’re just cutting themselves off from the possibility of learning from it.  If you don’t cut yourself off, then you can learn from everything, no?  :?

    I think I see your point. It could be said that they haven’t “learned” from it yet. The whole basis for their argument is that we can only say it happened based off of past observance, not data that can be collected (being history it is a little different. Sorry if my previous posts were confusing in that light). Yes you could learn from everything but that is only after you have excepted you can be wrong, like I had to do with the Moon Theory. Now in that case I am at a 85%/15% in favor of the official story (no one can disprove the possibility of a filming of it happening) but I can still be proved wrong on that. They on the other hand have already decided their result, and seek or refuse to accept evidence that they come across.

    GG



  • Quick post, but this does agravate me.

    To dispell a myth, 6 million jews did not die in the holocaust.  11 million PEOPLE died.  I think it is sick that the deaths of 5 million people are thrown in as a side note to most people, and that if you asked joe blow on the street who died in the holocaust he would say just Jews.  I don’t believe in crap like the protocols of Zion or anything like that, but I do believe there is an agenda by the jewish community to claim sole victemization of the Holocaust.  Schindler’s list was a great movie, but I did not see one non jew in it.

    I think that the Jews have an obligation to speak up for the others who died in the holocaust because they can not speak up themselves (the are dead).  Instead they seem to have gone out of their way to dismiss the deaths of the other 5 million who died just as gruesome of deaths as the 6 million jews.



  • Zooey, the Jews are focused on because the holocaust was the culmination of hundreds of years of persecution. They have suffered much more than others, and the holocaust was the worst they where put through.



  • Not good enough, 5 million people deserve (at best) to be more than a footnote in history.  At worst they will be forgotten comepletly.  The jewish community should be ashamed for not drawing more attention to the suffering of all victems of the holocaust.



  • While we are at it, should we also mention 21,000,000 Soviet citizens who died in that war… most of them NOT military…



  • This is the same thing as the Nazis getting all the press for being butchers, when the communists actually killed more. Some stuff just doesnt make it out.



  • Stalin wasn’t trying to methodically liquidate an entire group of people. The goal of the Nazis, and the industry to which they tried to accomplish that goal make them uniquely evil in history. Don’t get me wrong: Stalin was a murdering bastard, but he wasn’t giving awards on who could liquidate peasents most efficiently.



  • Stalin wasn’t trying to methodically liquidate an entire group of people.

    He wasn’t?  You might want to check on that.  Stalin was as anti-semitic as was Hitler, and like Hitler he connected the Bolshevik movement with the jews since there were some jews among the original Bolsheviks like Trotsky.  In fact his purge of the Communist party of the Bolsheviks could be seen as an act of anti-semitism.  And not only this but his purges brought famine which was worst in the Ukraine where the Jewish population was the largest.

    The goal of the Nazis, and the industry to which they tried to accomplish that goal make them uniquely evil in history.

    Well this is true but Russia really didn’t have the industrial capacity for this hence he let people especially jews starve.



  • @AgentSmith:

    Stalin wasn’t trying to methodically liquidate an entire group of people.

    He wasn’t?  You might want to check on that.  Stalin was as anti-semitic as was Hitler, and like Hitler he connected the Bolshevik movement with the jews since there were some jews among the original Bolsheviks like Trotsky.  In fact his purge of the Communist party of the Bolsheviks could be seen as an act of anti-semitism.  And not only this but his purges brought famine which was worst in the Ukraine where the Jewish population was the largest.

    The goal of the Nazis, and the industry to which they tried to accomplish that goal make them uniquely evil in history.

    Well this is true but Russia really didn’t have the industrial capacity for this hence he let people especially jews starve.

    So Russia could churn out T-34’s, Katyushas, Migs, mobilize millions of men, but they lacked the indsutry to build concentration camps? No. They poured everything into defeating Germany. Germany, on the other hand, devoted resoucres to liquidating ethnic groups EVEN as the Wehrmacht was being steamrolled across the Volga. THAT is murderous insanity.



  • Well, just to clarify that post of mine, since it appears to be being misconstrued here…

    21,000,000 Soviets died during WWII.

    I was not refering to the Stalin purges, etc…  just of the losses the Soveits took at the hands of the Axis.  Those are military losses and civilian losses caused by military action.

    And yes, I have heard this occasionally refered to as the “Slavic Holocaust.”  Not entirely accurate in nomenclature, but it is interesting to notice that we do seem to only remember the 6,000,000 and not the 21,000,000…


  • Moderator

    The reason is not that it is forgotten but that it is ignored because the Soviets were our “allies”.



  • I was mostly addressing the fact that not only the jews were victems, and it outrages me that it is portrayed in mainstream society that they were the sole victems.  If we are comparing evils though, I think Stalin was worse.  Say what you will about the evils of National Socialism, but it was an ideology.  The Nazis in their own warped and twisted way felt that they were doing right by their own people, or at least what they viewed as “Aryans”.  I don’t have to go into a history lesson about how screwed up that is, but it is an “idea” of a greater good.  Stalin had no “greater good” outside himself and the power he could acumulate.

    To put it another way since we are comparing evils, which is hard to do because it can sound at times like you are defending an evil which is not my intent at all.  For those of you who have seen the movie “Seven”, the serial killer there was more along the lines of evil as far as how I see the Nazis.  “Voices”, “God”, or his dog may have been his inspiration for doing what he did, but he believed in it.  In the Nazis case, it was that they thought that they were decedants from Atlantis who migrated from India.  Needless to say, both crazy as hell.

    Stalin on the other hand was just a killer, no ideology what so ever.  Kill for gain, kill for profit, kill because he just liked killing.  I equate him more to a jeffery dalmer who killed for his own satisfaction.  It doesn’t intrest me what ethnic, religious, political or eye color that inspired the killer to commit the slaughter.  A a slaughter is a slaughter.

    It may be splitting hairs, but I do see a difference in the 2.  And if my rational doesn’t work for you than I can just point out the obvious that Stalin killed a lot more people than Hitler did.



  • I agree with you 100% Zooey. At least Hitler had a reason, however twisted and sick it was.



  • Zooey, that was well spoken and well illustrated.

    My only question is this…

    Is personal gain, or the pursuit thereof, evil?



  • So Russia could churn out T-34’s, Katyushas, Migs, mobilize millions of men, but they lacked the indsutry to build concentration camps?

    Yes!  Your history is again spotty Mary I hope you aren’t a history teacher.  The purges of the military and party offiicials began in 1937 and even then Russias state of industrialization was not what it was by wars end.  Further, the even I was referring to ie forced collectivization began in the late 20s almost at the beginning of his reign.  This is when Stalin let peasants in the Ukraine starve etc etc in order to industrialize, but even at the end of the war Russia was not as industrialized per capita anywhere near to where Germany was.  They made up for this by their vastness.  Also, a lot of the capital in terms of gold that Russia used to finance this came from Spain during the Spanish Civil War as the Russians demanded the Republic pay for arms in gold so much of the gold from the Americas ended up in Moscow.

    No. They poured everything into defeating Germany. Germany, on the other hand, devoted resoucres to liquidating ethnic groups EVEN as the Wehrmacht was being steamrolled across the Volga. THAT is murderous insanity.

    Sure but so did Germany.  The amount of manpower tied down to the final solution was very small relatively speaking and stalin too had death squads.  And you neglect to mention that many of the first immigrants to the Levant after the war not from the MiddleEast came from Stalinist Russia, ie the Ukraine and the Baltic States b/c they were afraid of Stalin.

    Say what you will about the evils of National Socialism, but it was an ideology.

    Was it now?  I know people that would dispute this.

    The Nazis in their own warped and twisted way felt that they were doing right by their own people, or at least what they viewed as “Aryans”.

    I don’t agree I think they saw it all as an end to a means that is if they give the people what they want or what they think they’ll want then it would solidify their control over them.

    Stalin had no “greater good” outside himself and the power he could acumulate.

    As I think it can be said that Fascism was basically an ideologically bankrupt system the same could be said about Stalinism and its break from Bolshevik ideology.  Stalin and Hitler therefore were very similar in that they both wanted to create states which serviced them.

    To put it another way since we are comparing evils, which is hard to do because it can sound at times like you are defending an evil which is not my intent at all.  For those of you who have seen the movie “Seven”, the serial killer there was more along the lines of evil as far as how I see the Nazis.  “Voices”, “God”, or his dog may have been his inspiration for doing what he did, but he believed in it.  In the Nazis case, it was that they thought that they were decedants from Atlantis who migrated from India.  Needless to say, both crazy as hell.

    But this is the problem I see with how the West concieves of the Halocaust versus Stalinist purges.  Hitler is just seen as crazy but Stalin as evil.  I would argue they are both the same, either both are evil or both are crazy but to seperate them does ultimately make you a defender of one or the other.

    Stalin on the other hand was just a killer, no ideology what so ever.  Kill for gain, kill for profit, kill because he just liked killing.

    But I think you underestimate Stalinist motives and blanket them with bland generalizations.  Clearly Stalin was trying to create a super state apparatus around himself, but isn’t that what Hitler was trying to do.  While you can point to the clearly social darwinist logic behind National socialism you can’t overlook that this was in every single western country at that time but only Germany went to that end.  The same sort of vehement racialism existed in the US, France, the UK, etc etc but only in Germany did it lead to genocide.



  • @AgentSmith:

    So Russia could churn out T-34’s, Katyushas, Migs, mobilize millions of men, but they lacked the indsutry to build concentration camps?

    Yes!  Your history is again spotty Mary I hope you aren’t a history teacher.  The purges of the military and party offiicials began in 1937 and even then Russias state of industrialization was not what it was by wars end.  Further, the even I was referring to ie forced collectivization began in the late 20s almost at the beginning of his reign.  This is when Stalin let peasants in the Ukraine starve etc etc in order to industrialize, but even at the end of the war Russia was not as industrialized per capita anywhere near to where Germany was.  They made up for this by their vastness.  Also, a lot of the capital in terms of gold that Russia used to finance this came from Spain during the Spanish Civil War as the Russians demanded the Republic pay for arms in gold so much of the gold from the Americas ended up in Moscow.

    This is all moot. By referencing T-34’s and Katyusha rocket launchers, I am clearly talking about DURING the war. The point stands: The Russians had the means to build concentration camps to liquidate ethnic undesireables. They did not do so.

    No. They poured everything into defeating Germany. Germany, on the other hand, devoted resoucres to liquidating ethnic groups EVEN as the Wehrmacht was being steamrolled across the Volga. THAT is murderous insanity.

    Sure but so did Germany.

    ::boggle:: Um, Yeah, I know. Kind of why I said GERMANY and all. Nice to see you agreeing with me.

    The amount of manpower tied down to the final solution was very small relatively speaking and stalin too had death squads.

    Stalin had the equivalent of Einsatzcommandos roaming around Eastern Europe in their little death vans? The Ukrainians actually welcomed the Germans… until the death squads showed up in the army’s wake. As to the 2nd point: Resources were spent running trains full of “undesireables” to the death camps (oppurtunity costs there as well), the camps themselves took valuable resources to keep running, and roundiing up jews and patrolling the camps took more resources. All with the Russians advancing everywhere in the East. The Russians had NOTHING equivalent to such an industrialization of death, and hadn’t even articulated a philosophy for it because they had NO guiding philosophy for “purifying” their race. Germany had already had the Wansee conference where the “final solution” had been laid out in great detail.

        And you neglect to mention that many of the first immigrants to the Levant after the war not from the MiddleEast came from Stalinist Russia, ie the Ukraine and the Baltic States b/c they were afraid of Stalin.

    Probably because it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. As usual. If you bother replying to this, it will be for another audience. I’m about done arguing this point.


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