I Can't Repair My Battleships!


  • Official Q&A

    @GeneralHandGrenade:

    No you guys are misunderstanding I think. Basically what he is trying to say is that you can’t repair a UK Capital Ship at a UK naval base on the side of the board where they lost their capital. They can repair it on the other side of the board on a UK naval base or any friendly naval base anywhere in the world. UK units are not tied to their board of origin whatsoever. Only the money is tied to the economy on each side of the board. That’s why you can’t repair it at a UK naval base on the side of the board that has no money. Because the units are not tied to that fallen capital, it can still be repaired at any naval base due to the fact they still have at least one economy to draw on.

    Panther explains it quite simply. It’s not rocket science.

    Bingo!


  • Official Q&A

    @ShadowHAwk:

    You are contradicting yourself and the rules here.

    No, I’m not.  I’ve been saying the same thing all along.  It’s just that people keep misinterpreting it for some reason.

    @ShadowHAwk:

    If you have lost your capital you skip the purchase and repair steps.
    That was you said before and that is also how the devs intended it according to your previous post.
    If you skip the step it does not mather where the ships are as you dont get to repair at all.

    The rule does not specify where you repair just that you dont get to do purchase and repairs, for the UK this is a bit different as they get to go to the repair step if either side still has its capital. So lets asume that UK lost both capitals. You have a damaged BB it cannot be repaired regardless of where it is in the world, on the other hand the US carrier that is next to british held gibraltar can repair at that naval base.

    If we use the rules writen in the rulebook we get to the following rules ( im not typing the whole part ofcourse)

    Repairs,
    Where : you can repair next to a friendly operational naval base.
    When  : during your purchase and repair phase.

    You dont get the purchase and repair phase if your capital is in enemy hands.
    UK forces belong simultaniously to UK-pac and UK-eu they are not tied to the board or the side that bought them.

    So 1 damaged UK battleship off south afrika with london in italian hands.
    Is there a purchase and repair phase for the country controling this ship, Yes its UK, UK-pac has a purchase and repair phase.

    All true.

    @ShadowHAwk:

    Is it next to an operational friendly naval base, yes south afrika is not axis and the base has not been bombed.

    So by the book you can repair there.

    What you’re missing here is a couple of statements on page 35 of the Europe Rulebook (Global Rules):

    Each of United Kingdom Europe and Pacific makes its own separate purchases and repairs.

    An economy whose capital is held by the Axis can’t collect income, spend IPCs, or repair units.

    As a result of these statements, UK capital ships may not be repaired at a naval base that’s part of an economy whose capital is controlled by the Axis.


  • Official Q&A

    @P@nther:

    @Herr:

    Thanks, Krieghund and P@nther. It’s good to know that it works this way. But, having said that, I can’t really figure out why it works that way.

    In the example given:
    (a) A non-British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a British ship, so apparently, the UK repair capacity is unimpaired (we’re assuming that London pays for it);
    (b) Also, a British base on the Pacific side of the board can repair a non-British ship, so apparently, the repair capacity of the base itself is also unimpaired.

    Great questions, Herr Kaleun.

    Actually the (ship) ‘repair capacity’ of a nation is simply based on the presence of a (UK) / the (other powers) capital and the ‘repair capacity’ of a naval base is exclusively influenced by bombing, no way by the loss of capitals.

    When solving the scenario(s) we assume the damaged ship being at a (friendly) operative base.
    So it is “only” the presence of a capital (in case of UK) respectively the capital (other powers) that additionally determines the ability to repair.

    Hope that helps.
    In case your questions go deeper, asking why it is this way and why the ( intact ) repair capacity of the naval bases have not been taken into account when creating the rules, I remember Krieghund saying “It must hurt losing a capital”. I am sure he will comment if there are additional reasons behind it…

    The repair of a capital ship requires two things: the physical capacity to repair it (an operative base) and the resources to repair it (an operative economy).  The first requirement may come from any friendly source, but the second must come from the owning power.  This is the reason for the rules as they are.  You may say, “why do I need resources?  It doesn’t cost any IPCs to do the repair.”  We explored the idea of having it cost 1 IPC to repair a damaged sea unit, but Larry didn’t want the IPC expense to influence combat decisions of whether or not to damage capital ships.  The result was a compromise that you can do the repairs for free, but you must still have an operative economy in order to do them.  This implies that there is still some amount of resources being used, but they are too small to account for even 1 IPC.  However, a power (or an economy) with a captured capital generates and spends no IPCs - not even a fraction of one.

    In the case of UK, the picture is complicated a bit by its dual economy.  The requirement for the physical repair capacity is the same, but the source of the resources is different.  Per the rules I quoted above, an economy that has a captured capital may not do repairs, and the two economies make their own separate purchases and repairs.  If the repair is being done at an allied naval base, it doesn’t really matter which economy “pays” for it (the units don’t belong to a specific economy once they’re on the board), so this can be done if either capital is free.  However, the rules I quoted prohibit the repair of units by an economy with a captured capital, as well as the use of resources from one UK economy with the facilities of the other, so that rules out repairing at a Europe base using Pacific resources, and vice versa, if either capital is enemy-held.

    I hope this helps.



  • Great explanation! Thanks for the clarity, I don’t think I have ever come across this specific problem, however it is good to know for future games.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Official Q&A TripleA Moderator

    Very interesting background information, thanks Krieghund!



  • @PainState:

    Well lets think about this logically.

    USA capital is lost….ALLIES CONCEED
    Russian capital is lost…who cares when it comes to ships.
    German capital is lost…Axis concede.
    Italy capital is lost…who cares, it is Italy.
    Japan capital is lost…Axis concede.
    ANZAC capital is lost…who?
    China is decimated… why do I care?

    So all we are left with is the UK.

    UK is the only power that by the rules has 2 capitals and two separate economies.

    Now lets say that UK Europe falls. UK still has a capital in the far East. At this point is when the debate starts.

    Can UK ships only repair on the Pacific map on UK / Allied ports? According to the rules the UK Europe side of the map can only perform Combat moves and non Combat moves BUT the Pacific UK map they can still perform purchase and repair. So, the only free UK repair services can be found on the Pacific map for UK capital ships.

    Now lets throw a wrench into this discussion. What happens if a USA capital ship is off the shores of Egypt, UK Europe has fallen BUT Egypt is still in UK hands. Can the USA repair off the UK Egypt port because USA ships can repair in the build and repair phase of their turn? Of course they can because USA ships will pay cold hard cash to the Egyptians to perform the repairs. Plus, by the rules…USA Capital ships can repair on any UK Europe map port as long as the USA capital has not fallen.

    SO

    IF UK capital ships are on the Pacific map they can be repaired, regardless if the unit was a Europe or Pacific map capital ship. If it is in a Pacific Map Naval port they can be repaired.

    Case closed.

    😮

    I thought I closed out this discussion with my powers of logic and reading the rule books on page #2?

    🙂

    :lol: 😄


  • 2017 '16

    Your logic was good.
    But, fortunately for us, it does not become a closed case.
    So we get a pretty interesting insight from Krieghund.

    🙂



  • @Baron:

    Your logic was good.
    But, fortunately for us, it does not become a closed case.
    So we get a pretty interesting insight from Krieghund.

      🙂

    Yes we are. Krieghund is taking my insight and putting some flowers on top of it to make them look like his!!!

    He is saying the exact same thing as Iam.

    😄 😮 🙂 😉


  • 2019 2017 '16

    @ShadowHAwk:

    @Krieghund:

    Yes, it could be repaired at any non-UK base, anywhere in the world.  It’s only the UK bases that are restricted.

    You are contradicting yourself and the rules here.

    I feel compelled to agree with ShadowHawk here, but I’m going to put it down to a loose statement.

    @PainState:

    ANZAC capital is lost…who?

    Huh? I think I’ve lost Sydney 3 times and the only time it didn’t result in a loss of game was when I was able to use US air plus the ANZAC infantry on New Zealand to retake the capital.

    Ooh, shouldn’t it be Canberra! Might as well call the US capital New York. Maybe North Americans and/or Europeans are not aware of Canberra?

    @Herr:

    Thanks, Krieghund and P@nther. It’s good to know that it works this way. But, having said that, I can’t really figure out why it works that way.

    This is the remaining question. Why should a power with a lost capital be able to use its naval bases for extending its ships movement but not for repairing the ships?


  • 2018 2017 '16

    I made a video to demonstrate the rule;
    https://youtu.be/I0gxQACErD8


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @Krieghund:

    In the case of UK, the picture is complicated a bit by its dual economy.  The requirement for the physical repair capacity is the same, but the source of the resources is different.  Per the rules I quoted above, an economy that has a captured capital may not do repairs, and the two economies make their own separate purchases and repairs.  If the repair is being done at an allied naval base, it doesn’t really matter which economy “pays” for it (the units don’t belong to a specific economy once they’re on the board), so this can be done if either capital is free.  However, the rules I quoted prohibit the repair of units by an economy with a captured capital, as well as the use of resources from one UK economy with the facilities of the other, so that rules out repairing at a Europe base using Pacific resources, and vice versa, if either capital is enemy-held.

    So, just as an example, suppose that India is held by Japan but the Philippines are still held by the US and Kwantung by the UK (admittedly, this is quite unlikely). Now if a damaged British battleship ends its turn in SZ35, next round it will be auto-repaired by the US naval base, and we’re assuming that London pays for it even if the amount is 0. However, if the damaged British battleship ends its turn in SZ20, it will not be auto-repaired because for some reason, London can’t pay for it now. I think that’s quite strange - if London is doing the repair at the US base, why can’t London be doing the repair at the UK base? I really see no reason why Calcutta (which admittedly can’t do repairs at that time) is now suddenly supposed to provide the money. They own the base, not the ship.

    All in all, I’m glad that such events are unlikely to happen frequently.


  • 2019 2017 '16

    I suppose another question is how this rule makes the game better in any way?



  • @simon33:

    I suppose another question is how this rule makes the game better in any way?

    It doesnt really, it adds only confusion.

    IMO it repair step should be a seperate step that happens always for everybody.


  • 2018 2017 '16

    I agree with you ShadowHawk. It seems to me if you pull into one of your allies ports they would want to repair your Battleship even if you didn’t have the money since it costs a fraction of what building a new one would cost. Maybe just not be able to repair it in your own port because you have no money. I’m not suggesting a house rule here I’m just saying that would’ve made more sense.



  • @Krieghund:

      The assumption is that the cost (too small to be represented by a full IPC) is borne by the UK Pacific economy.

    If you let repair cost 1 IPC that would have solved a lot of rule issues. And honestly, 1 IPC aint that much


  • 2019 2017 '16

    @GeneralHandGrenade:

    Maybe just not be able to repair it in your own port because you have no money.

    Still too much confusion! If your allies can use your port, you should be able to too.


  • 2019 2018 2017

    @Narvik:

    @Krieghund:

    The assumption is that the cost (too small to be represented by a full IPC) is borne by the UK Pacific economy.

    If you let repair cost 1 IPC that would have solved a lot of rule issues. And honestly, 1 IPC aint that much

    Hardly. The debate is not about the cost itself, but about which economy is supposedly paying it. Everybody agrees that even when the cost is 0, an economy that has lost its capital can’t pay that “amount”.



  • There should be no confusion on the rules.

    1940 was designed as a two map game. The only power that has to deal with it is the UK.

    Throw out “reality”, this is just a game.

    I still have issues with the Generals you tube video that UK ships can repair on the USA east coast (Europe map) because UK Europe Capital is lost.

    UK ships in the case of UK Europe lost (London has fallen) should only be able to repair on the Pacific map board.

    The issue is we have 2 rule books covering two individual games and then a few pages mashing them all into one on a few pages at the end of each book as the global rules and calling it 1940 global rules.

    ** I will admit this scenario we are so hotly debating is such a non factor it is amusing…but, hey, we are gamers and love discussing stupid things.**


  • 2018 2017 '16

    I didn’t make the rules. Regardless of what you think of the video, Krieghund was clear about the fact that the UK could repair it’s Battleship in the Eastern US if London had fallen but India was still in British hands. You can play the game any way you choose, but those are the official rules of the game as set by Larry Harris.


  • 2019 2017 '16

    That contradicts my reading of the rules. Can it be explained where I’m reading it wrongly?

    My reading is that if Calcutta is lost, the UK purchase and repair phase only applies to the Europe side.


  • 2019 2017 '16

    And if you are concerned about realism, why doesn’t repair take any time?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Official Q&A TripleA Moderator

    @GeneralHandGrenade:

    I didn’t make the rules. Regardless of what you think of the video, Krieghund was clear about the fact that the UK could repair it’s Battleship in the Eastern US if London had fallen but India was still in British hands. You can play the game any way you choose, but those are the official rules of the game as set by Larry Harris.

    @simon33:

    My reading is that if Calcutta is lost, the UK purchase and repair phase only applies to the Europe side.

    When London is lost and Calcutta is still British:
    Q: So when and where can the damaged battleship be repaired?
    A: During the Purchase+Repair Phase of the UK-Pacific economy at every friendly operative naval base except British naval bases belonging to the UK-Europe economy.

    When Calcutta is lost and London is still British:
    Q: So when and where can the damaged battleship be repaired?
    A: During the Purchase+Repair Phase of the UK-Europe economy at every friendly operative naval base except British naval bases belonging to the UK-Pacific economy.


  • 2019 2017 '16

    What I mean is this rule seems to say that there is no repair on the Pacific side if Calcutta is lost, and none on the Europe side if London is lost:

    @simon33:

    @Pac:

    Purchase and Repair
    Each of United Kingdom Europe and Pacific makes its own separate purchases and repairs.

    Why am I reading it wrongly?

    Is it just the remarks above that vary what is the apparent meaning of the rules?



  • @GeneralHandGrenade:

    I didn’t make the rules. Regardless of what you think of the video, Krieghund was clear about the fact that the UK could repair it’s Battleship in the Eastern US if London had fallen but India was still in British hands. You can play the game any way you choose, but those are the official rules of the game as set by Larry Harris.

    THB the official rules are the rulebook.
    The fact that we need a FAQ for some rules already demonstrates that the rules are not well thought off, rules should be simple and consistent.
    Exceptions to rules should be minimized, Exceptions are evil. I play a lot of boardgames and the games that are easiest to play and are more fun are also the games that have fewer rules and no exceptions to those rules.

    Adding repairing to the buy rules and not allowing you to go through that step without a capital creates the unclear situation.

    Just removing that part of the rules solves the questions and strange situations and yes without money the build phase will be very short. It also makes the game a lot more consistent as every turn your phases are the same in the same order without exceptions.
    Apparently the devs did not thought this through when they changed from 1ipc repairs to free repairs. And they apparently did not consider global and only the 2 smaller games.


  • 2017 '16

    Why skip the purchase and repair phase when your capital is captured?
    Let it be “on”, this Power don’t have any money. He will be able to only repair warships anyway.
    If, in the next round, this Power have previously managed to capture an enemy’s capital (during the last game round) and have money at the beginning of his turn, so be it. Let it purchase units in secondaries ICs. Most will be minors.

    This restriction seems a vestigial remnants of Classic game. The Global game is supposed to be about VCs. And Axis Power claiming Victory needs to own its Capital  to do so.


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